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Post by Nester the Lark on Jan 13, 2007 13:28:47 GMT -5
There's something I wanted to bring up. I think it's easy to misinterpret the message I've tried to send by ranting about third parties. I'm going to try to clarify, and I'll try to be brief.
I'm sure most older gamers, like myself, have fond memories of playing their NES's back in the late 80's-early 90's (or even SNES shortly thereafter). Our memories, of course, consist of the Super Mario Bros. games, The Legend of Zelda, Metroid and Punch-out!!, but that's only part of the picture. Our memories wouldn't be complete without the likes of Castlevania, Double Dragon, Mega Man, Contra, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or even Battletoads. It was a big deal when Super Mario Bros. 3 was released, but it was also a big deal when Mega Man 3 first came out. I'll admit, even I had my favorite companies back then, and Nintendo was one of them; but I didn't prioritize my gaming habits based on whether a game was first party or even exclusive to the system. (Heck, there was a Genesis/Mega Drive version of Battletoads.) It simply wasn't an issue.
I don't think the same can be said for the N64/Gamecube eras. I bet most of people's memories of these systems are dominated by the likes of Super Mario 64, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Star Fox 64 and Goldeneye 007 on the N64; and Super Smash Bros. Melee, Metroid Prime, and The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker (etc.), with very little beyond the first party scope. Nintendo did have less support from third parties for these consoles. I believe it was Nintendo's fault on the N64, but more the fan's fault on the Gamecube. Third parties publish for systems with people who will buy their games. I started the thread on third party Gamecube games to say that that these games were there, and they were ready to be played.
I am not trying to promote third party games by saying you should buy an X amount of them, or in equal amounts with first party games, or in place of first party games, or even that you need to buy third party games at all. I'm not trying to coax people from the first party side of the fence to the third party side, or even to sit on the fence. I'm saying there is no fence.
I think Fry created the NinDB out of love for classic Nintendo, but as stated above, classic Nintendo includes third party games. Modern Nintendo should, also. They're a substantial part of the Nintendo experience. It shouldn't even be an issue. I apprciate that Fry has created a special forum for discussion of third party games, but by seperating the discussion from that of first party games, I wonder if it's not defeating its own purpose.
Anyway, this has turned into another rant, and I apologize for that. I think it's out of my system now. So much for being brief. Thank you for your patience.
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Post by Smashchu on Jan 13, 2007 13:46:04 GMT -5
You bring up a good point, but you must remeber that we are older now than then. I guess you can call it natural selection. We liked the Nintendo 1st and 2nd party games more so we continued to pick them up more and more.
Also, its also because there have been bad 3rd party games. They don't make them as good as Nintendo so after one bad taste we stay away.
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Post by mrmolecule on Jan 13, 2007 16:56:35 GMT -5
That's right. Try to focus on 3rd party games that appeared on Nintendo consoles first (the Sega games are polluting things!)
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Post by Nester the Lark on Jan 13, 2007 21:32:49 GMT -5
You bring up a good point, but you must remeber that we are older now than then. I guess you can call it natural selection. We liked the Nintendo 1st and 2nd party games more so we continued to pick them up more and more. Also, its also because there have been bad 3rd party games. They don't make them as good as Nintendo so after one bad taste we stay away. See, I don't entirely agree with that. Yeah, there are bad third party games, but that means nothing. There are plenty of good third party games that are (in my opinion) at least as good as, if not better than, Nintendo's best efforts in recent years. For that matter, not everything Nintendo has cranked out recently has been solid gold. They've got a few stinkers of their own. (Specific titles will vary among individuals.) Point being that I don't think quality is the issue the way we want to think it is. I think serious Nintendo fans, like ourselves, tend to make purchase decisions based on tiers that go something like: 1st party > 2nd party > 3rd party exclusive > 3rd party multi-console. We may not even fully realize we're doing it, but we figure that since we have the system, it's only worth it if we buy the games that are not available on other systems; mainly the ones made by the same company that made the system. Somehow, this is supposed to equate to buying better games. But because every game we may imagine buying goes through this filtering process, we end up with a bias that pretty much equals (if you'll pardon the derogative) fanboyism. That is, we're likely to buy a mediocre first or second party game instead of a better quality third party game. A few years ago, I realized that this was what went through my own brain when I considered buying games for my Gamecube. But when I began to open my mind, my Gamecube collection began to flourish. But as you say, this new audience the DS and Wii are supposed to attract (the new, former, and casual gamers) is probably not going to have this problem. They won't be blinded by pride, so it won't be so much of an issue. That's right. Try to focus on 3rd party games that appeared on Nintendo consoles first (the Sega games are polluting things!) Heh. I hope you're being facetious. Not that I'm defending Sega or anything.
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Post by Smashchu on Jan 13, 2007 23:22:04 GMT -5
Also, its also because there have been bad 3rd party games. They don't make them as good as Nintendo so after one bad taste we stay away. See, I don't entirely agree with that. Yeah, there are bad third party games, but that means nothing. There are plenty of good third party games that are (in my opinion) at least as good as, if not better than, Nintendo's best efforts in recent years. For that matter, not everything Nintendo has cranked out recently has been solid gold. They've got a few stinkers of their own. (Specific titles will vary among individuals.) Point being that I don't think quality is the issue the way we want to think it is. I think serious Nintendo fans, like ourselves, tend to make purchase decisions based on tiers that go something like: 1st party > 2nd party > 3rd party exclusive > 3rd party multi-console. We may not even fully realize we're doing it, but we figure that since we have the system, it's only worth it if we buy the games that are not available on other systems; mainly the ones made by the same company that made the system. Somehow, this is supposed to equate to buying better games. But because every game we may imagine buying goes through this filtering process, we end up with a bias that pretty much equals (if you'll pardon the derogative) fanboyism. That is, we're likely to buy a mediocre first or second party game instead of a better quality third party game. A few years ago, I realized that this was what went through my own brain when I considered buying games for my Gamecube. But when I began to open my mind, my Gamecube collection began to flourish. But as you say, this new audience the DS and Wii are supposed to attract (the new, former, and casual gamers) is probably not going to have this problem. They won't be blinded by pride, so it won't be so much of an issue. [/quote] Yes, I do agree we make the 1st 2nd 3rd assumption, but I think past experience is what causes it. What you say is 100% valid, but even that comes from our past experiences Since we grew up on Nintendo we rememeber those iconic characters. And, in the past, Nintendo made the better games that sold well. So, we play the old great Nintendo games, love them, and since as we grew found out more about Nintendo, accepted there games. So, as I mentioned before, we remember the good games and cvontinue to buy them. Coustermer loyalty. Also, how you made it out is that we make this desision at the store split seccond. The truth is most of use know what we are hoping to buy for the whole year. So that idea of party you mentioned comes into play, but it may also be that with a Nintendo console, Nintendo games are the for runners.
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Post by Dances in Undergarments on Jan 14, 2007 4:02:12 GMT -5
I'm actually curious of the ages of the people in this thread / on this forum. The reason I ask is because I'm fairly young (17), and my first gaming expereince was actually the SNES, where my game collection consisted mostly of Mario and Donkey Kong games. Alot of this was because I did not have money, so I had only a small supply of games, and, since I liked Mario All Stars or DKC, Mario World and DKC2 seemed like logical choices. With the N64 I expanded slightly, and the Mario and DK focus expanded to include Pokemon (which I had loved on GB, like all kids at the time) and Banjo (I'm not sure why I knew these were the same people that made the DKCs, but I did for some reason). As you can see, I pretty much stuck to 1st and 2nd party stuff, though there were a couple of various other games in there, too. The strong quality of these games is what lead me to get a GCN, as I knew that I would only be able to experience my favourite games like Mario on Banjo (.....) on it.
However, when I got my GCN, I now had my own money, and could therefore buy my own games. I, therefore, needed to expand my gaming tastes, and, having access to the internet now, I was able to see what were good games, and therefore indulge. And while I'll admit there definately was some Nintendo bias (So this Pikmin thing is made by the same guy who made Mario? Oh hell yeah, I'm in!), that perhaps lead me to buy some unnecessary games in my collection, I will proudly admit that I was accepting of whoever made a game if it was supposed to be good - so I went out and bought a SEGA game (Monkey Ball 2, though I had rented Monkey Ball 1 earlier), I went out and bought a Namco game (Soul Calibur II, and it wasn't for Link, either - I had only played Zelda for the first time a few months before, so I had no attachment to the dork in his green leotard and tights) and I went out and bought a Capcom game (Viewtiful Joe... and then the sequel, and then RE4). Still, though, I will admit that I haven't supported 3rd parties as much as I should, so I hope to change that and buy just the best games this gen, regardless of who made them.
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Post by kirbychu on Jan 14, 2007 7:03:10 GMT -5
I'm twenty and a half, so while I was around during the NES years, I wasn't able to enjoy them. My first console was a Sega Mega Drive (Sonic was what attracted me to gaming in the first place), but I also had a Game Boy and regular access to a SNES. I'd finished Kirby's Dream Land and Super Mario World by the time I was ten, at least. Then I got the N64, and... looking at my collection, it seems I did have a 1st/2nd party bias, despite not knowing what that meant at the time. In fact, I think Bomberman 64 might be the only 3rd party game I have. I would say I have a fairly healthy set of third party games for my GC, though. Just looking at the shelf I can see Billy Hatcher, Tales of Symphonia, Sonic Gems Collection, Sonic Riders, Sonic Mega Collection, Shadow The Hedgehog, Sonic Adventure 2: Battle, Harvest Moon, MegaMan Network Transmission, Sonic Adventure DX, Viewtiful Joe, Sonic Heroes, Phantasy Star Online Episode 1 & 2, and Episode 3, though I'm not a fan, Viewtiful Joe 2 and Viewtiful Joe: Red Hot Rumble and Super Monkey Ball. There are likely more there which are out of sight, too. So aside from a Nintendo bias, I also have a Sonic Team bias. Though I'm not really a fan of Sega themselves. Just Sonic, PSO, the original ToeJam and Earl, and... maybe Ecco the Dolphin.
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Post by Smashchu on Jan 14, 2007 10:48:28 GMT -5
Im 18, since we all seem to want to give out age out now. Anywho, I first played videogames with my cousin, which was Sonic 2 and Donkey Kong Country, and owned a Sega Genesis. Actually, until the N64, I was more in liove with Sonic then anything else. I wasn't pulled into Nintendo until Pokemon. It was also melee that made me want to know more about Nintendo.
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Post by Nester the Lark on Jan 14, 2007 13:28:53 GMT -5
I'm 28, and I've been a Nintendo fan for most of the last 20 years. I've been a gamer, in general, for as long as I can remember.
There's nothing wrong with being a Nintendo fan. I'm not saying there is. And as Smashchu pointed out, we're fans for a reason. Maybe we like Nintendo's style or specific series', and that keeps us coming back. But we need to be careful with the bias it may create.
Nintendo's products are not inherently better than other company's. The point of the 3PS and TPCGW is to show that there's plenty of high-quality software from other companies, and it deserves your attention just as much as your favorites. They may even become new favorites. Don't let company loyalty become a barrier that prevents you from evaluating (and enjoying) games on an individual basis. I like what DiU said about buying the best games, regardless of who made them. It may ultimately mean buying more Nintendo games anyway, but it may not. What's important is that we understand what qualities we like in games, and we look at all games available to us to find the ones that we'll most enjoy. This attitude is better not only for us as gamers, but also for the industry.
I consider myself a Nintendo fan, but I like to think that they earned me as a fan. If I ever feel that they're going downhill or in the wrong direction (either as a whole or with individual franchises), I have no reason to feel obligated to continue to buy their products. It's happened before.
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Post by Hiker of Games on Jan 14, 2007 14:08:10 GMT -5
I have a definite bias for 1st party games, no doubt. My NES and SNES collections are a bit more diverse, but I had it even during the SNES age. My favorite games were the Nintendo made ones. On the Gamecube I have my share of third party games, but on the Nintendo DS Phoenix Wright is my only non-Nintendo game.
And I'm 22, for the record. Maybe I just know what I like?
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Post by TrustTheFungus on Jan 14, 2007 14:37:25 GMT -5
90% of the games I buy are Nintendo. Most of the time getting one step closer to completing my Nintendo collection brings me more enjoyment than a game that might even be superior.
Oh, I'm 20.
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Post by Hiker of Games on Jan 14, 2007 21:04:22 GMT -5
I also don't mind being called a fanboy. My catchphrase is 'omg i'm a fanboy' used in the same arrogant, defiant tone that I often use when saying 'omg i'm a republican'.
But when I do buy multiplatform games (I own at least 5) I always get the Cube version when available. I always felt it was important to support third parties, even if I don't particularily compelled to buy a whole bunch of them.
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Post by Fryguy64 on Jan 15, 2007 4:19:03 GMT -5
And I'm 23. There, I think we're all good (although DiU - I had you pegged for older than 17 - meant as a compliment of course). On the 3PS feature page I have laid it out roughly as follows (Corey, let me know if you agree or not): A large selection of Nintendo fanboys are notoriously hypocritical. They bemoan the lack of third party games on Nintendo systems as being responsible for Nintendo's lack of market penetration. But at the same time they avoid most, if not all, third party games like the plague. I am not one of these people. Nintendo puts out more excellent games per year than any other developer - and fewer duds! Their hardware is always reliable and I know that another 10 or 15 years down the line, they will still be operating just fine. But that doesn't mean other companies aren't close behind. In fact, many other companies put out excellent game after excellent game, and many people just miss out on them. There are even excellent games on other systems. YES IT'S TRUE! But Nintendo Database is a site for Nintendo stuff. The 3PS has been adopted as an official NinDB feature for the following reasons: 1. By promoting third party games on Nintendo systems (even if we're not covering them as part of the site) we are breaking down that invisible wall that separates "Nintendo games" from "the rest" and showing the world that excellent gaming exists out of the little Mario-Zelda-Pokemon circle. This indirectly benefits Nintendo if the features result in sales. 2. Corey is genuinely passionate about this and a very clear writer. 3. It makes me look less like the crazy Nintendo fanboy extraordinaire that I imagine I have a reputation for. ;D I love third party games. I disagree that only Nintendo exclusives should be covered, although (for the purposes of this website) I expect we shall stick to games available on current Nintendo systems - including the Virtual Console. And Sega is awesome.
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Post by Dances in Undergarments on Jan 15, 2007 5:30:51 GMT -5
And I'm 23. There, I think we're all good (although DiU - I had you pegged for older than 17 - meant as a compliment of course). I was lying - I'm actually 58 years old. And the crown prince of Nigeria. And in case it wasn't clear (because I ramble alot... like the time I needed a new heel for my shoe. I had to take the ferry to Shelbyville, which was called Morganville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on them. Gimme 5 bees for a quarter, you'd say...), the reason I was asking about the ages was because I was wondering if there were people that perhaps weren't big on 3rd party games due to either being too young to buy their own games or something, but it looks like thats not the case and noe of you have excuses. Anyway, the important thing was I had an onion tied to my belt, which was the style at the time. You couldn't get white onions, because of the war. Just big yellow ones... (as a side note I know that whole damn speech from memory. If I actually used my mind for important things who knows where I could go... but eh, f*** it.)
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Post by Fryguy64 on Jan 15, 2007 9:55:36 GMT -5
That's my favourite Grampa Simpson rant ;D I have no excuses, so I make sure I don't have to make any! By buying third party games, of course. And thoroughly enjoying them. And then planning to make crazy websites when I already have a crazy website I can hardly handle. The year was nineteen-diggidy-three and everyone was doing a dance called the FUNKY Grampa. "Oh I'm the..." *snore*
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