Thoughts on the Final Roster (Spoilers)

[TV Eye]

Another way to look at it is like, you promised us this amazing painting that would take 2 years to complete. 2 years pass and the excitement has died down, we see it and expected a masterpiece, but it's just slightly above average. Still good, but not the best.

[Dances in Undergarments]

How is it not a masterpiece? Does Ridley need to be in for it to be a masterpiece? Does there need to be more Kid Icarus songs? Does there need to be more stuff from the Wars games? You've gotta be kidding me.



...paint analogy.

[Deleted]

Alas, it appears as if my painting were doomed to fail from the outset, then. Maybe it would have been better off left as a surprise.

I'm blowing this popstand until you all can come to your senses.

[TV Eye]

I ain't sayin' the game won't be a masterpiece. It's just we all had high expectations that weren't fulfilled.

[Arcadenik]

TV Eye. THANK YOU! That's exactly how we are feeling right now. We had high expectations for Brawl to really showcase the history of Nintendo because that is what Super Smash Bros. is all about.

Not only that but we also expected Sakurai to improve the Melee roster starting with the clones. We wanted more original fighters, not copycat fighters. That meant either remove the clones or declone them. What did Sakurai do? He removed Dr. Mario, Young Link, Pichu, Roy, and oddly Mewtwo, too.... but Sakurai replaced Young Link with Toon Link (same moveset), Roy with Ike (new moveset), and Mewtwo with Lucario (similar but different enough to be his own character). And what did Sakurai do with the clones who stayed? He left them the same as before AND added two more clones Lucas and Wolf.

I mean, really.. why do all three Star Fox characters have the same movesets (only they have different animations and appear different? All Sakurai did was reinforce some people's beliefs that Wolf would just be Fox's clone... and they are right. And Toon Link? He is really Young Link with a cel-shaded makeover, nothing more. I expected Toon Link to have a different moveset based off TWW and TMC because they are Toon Link's games. Instead of copying Link's Triforce Slash, he could have Four Links. And Ness shouldn't be back when Lucas alone is sufficient enough to represent a franchise of three games (and I main Ness in Melee!)

Yes, we are criticizing certain aspects of the game but that doesn't mean we aren't buying the game. It just mean we expected better out of Sakurai when it came to the roster and the history of Nintendo. Plus the topic of this thread is "Thoughts on the Final Roster" so of course that means both positive AND negative thoughts on the final roster, not only positive thoughts.

[Smashchu]

Ok, crazy conversation.

Tei, I agree, and am dumbfounded by thecomparision. I do beleive we have a pretty solid roster overall. Most of the characters came back, we got some new ones, and it's just good overall. I think Metroid could use more reps. but, for now, it's fine.

But, Mursamune, let's think about this. Sakurai has given some kind of nod to almost every Nintendo franchise. Even the small few with a game or so. Wars has a AT. But you claim it needs a character. But how would an AW character work? It woud be hard to get Andy, Wii or Jake to work. I mean, having them out right fight would seem weird. So making it a fighter would seem like more trouble then it's worth. Especially as no one really ask for an AW character. So it begs the question why AW should get something over another character or franchise.

We can't get into this "X franchise needs" becuase it's really subjective, and, at the same time, could present bias. Sakurai has tried hard to make sure everything get's it's share and for the most part that is true. You can see this in all the ATs from different franchises. But if we start talking about what a franchise needs then we cloud our vision. Let's look at it as what players may like.

[Hiker of Games]

dancesinunderwear said:

How is it not a masterpiece? Does Ridley need to be in for it to be a masterpiece? Does there need to be more Kid Icarus songs? Does there need to be more stuff from the Wars games? You've gotta be kidding me.

There isn't ANYTHING from the Wars game. That's my problem. It's the only issue I have. Nintendo Wars is that missing color. It's not some minor hue of brown.

But apparently I'm crazy for thinking the series amount to anything.

smashchu2 said:

But, Mursamune, let's think about this. Sakurai has given some kind of nod to almost every Nintendo franchise. Even the small few with a game or so. Wars has a AT. But you claim it needs a character. But how would an AW character work? It woud be hard to get Andy, Wii or Jake to work. I mean, having them out right fight would seem weird. So making it a fighter would seem like more trouble then it's worth. Especially as no one really ask for an AW character. So it begs the question why AW should get something over another character or franchise.

It's Masamune. Just fyi.

Wars has an AT that's a few sprites ripped from the game. Wars fans don't even get the pleasure of seeing their series represented in 3D. Not even as a trophy! How sad is that? All we get are stickers. I got an IMAGE GALLERY full of that.

And please. Spare me the moveset argument. That's a BS argument. The only valid one is that nobody asked for it. Which is sad really, but the Wars series got killed in Japan after 9/11 and hasn't recovered since. But why should it -matter- if it's in demand? It's a Nintendo All-Stars game. This is one of their series spanning from the NES and made perfect attendance for every system sans the N64. But I guess if it's not popular in Japan, it can expect hobo in Smash Brothers.

So yeah. I'm a jackass who wanted more. I sure do have a lot of nerve.

[Arcadenik]

You aren't crazy for thinking that way. It is your opinion and you have a right to voice your opinion (with reasons, of course). I feel the same way about Duck Hunt. There's only one measly sticker of the ducks.... but the infamous dog is nowhere to be seen in the game in any shape or form. The dog is the reason Duck Hunt is very memorable because he gave the game a personality... plus the NES Deluxe Set in USA came packaged with both Duck Hunt (including the Zapper) and Gyromite (including the ROB) while the NES Action Set came package with both Duck Hunt (including the Zapper) and Super Mario Bros. Notice that Duck Hunt came packaged in both bundles... so I figured Duck Hunt would be equally as important as the ROB.. but apparently I'm an idiot for thinking Duck Hunt amounted to anything.

[TV Eye]

Alright, there is an assist trophy of Isaac (my most wanted character) and that's cool and all, but why should less deserving characters, like clones who didn't even get one vote in the poll (I'm looking at you Wolf) get in, when a perfectly awesome, and high voted original character with an amazing moveset be cast to the side?

Sakurai sure did make one hell of a game, but we are the consumer. We buy the game that he creates. We give him the billions of dollars (yen?) that he has. So why shouldn't we have a say on who gets in? Do you remember the poll? The high ranked characters such as Geno, Krystal, Takamaru, Animal Crossing character, etc. don't even get in as assist trophies. And Ridley had four votes!? Why isn't he a character?!

It's things like this that really piss me off.

Though, yeah. I'm not saying the game will suck.

[Arcadenik]

We have a total of 18 newcomers... only Zero Suit Samus, Snake, R.O.B., Lucario, and Red's 3 Pokemon weren't on neither Melee nor Brawl polls. I blame Kojima for having the nerve to "practically beg" Sakurai to put Snake, a character whose franchise is mostly on Sony consoles, in Brawl. At least Sonic got in because millions of Smash fans (who are consumers) wanted him and he had a lot of games on Nintendo consoles.

Toon Link was on Brawl poll and he replaced Young Link who was on Melee poll.... but that's it. He didn't get new moves, he is basically Young Link with cel-shaded makeover.

Wolf had four votes in Melee poll but he wasn't the #2 after Falco, he came in #3 after Slippy who had five votes. But in Brawl poll Krystal had 4 votes while the rest all got 1 vote each... yet Wolf gets in over Krystal? And he's ANOTHER Fox clone to boot?! Well, Sakurai, thank you for reinforcing those who argue against Wolf's inclusion by making him a clone of Fox.

Lucas was supposed to replace Ness according to Sakurai's statement in Ness's profile in Melee Dojo. So what's the point of having BOTH Ness and Lucas if they are just going to be clones? And it seems unnecessary to have two Mother characters when the franchise is over 20 years old with only 3 games out.

And Ganondorf is STILL Captain Falcon's clone? What a shame.

I am surprised Sakurai actually bothered to come up with an original moveset for Diddy Kong instead of taking the easy way to make Donkey Kong Jr. a clone of Donkey Kong!

So while some of the most-voted characters of Melee and Brawl didn't make the cut, it is a slap to the face when they don't even make it into Brawl as Assist Trophies, at least. Sure, we all expected the least-voted characters to get in as Assist Trophies... but there's nothing for the most-voted characters. That is a slap to the face.

But I am sure I will be perceived as whining and be told to "get over it". One would think that if Brawl was the last game, Sakurai would want the series to go out in a bang and really showcase the history of Nintendo (I am looking at you, Chronicle). But whatever, I will just play Brawl and meet you all online when I get it on March 9, 2008.

[Neko Neko Panic]

masamune said:

What if you said your painting was going to be a rainbow.

When did Sakurai ever say it would have EVERY Nintendo-related character that anyone ever liked? (Which, if colors = characters, then rainbow = every character.) Never, to my knowledge.

EDIT 1:

dancesinunderwear said:

But Smash 64 already had the rainbow. Red was there from the start. Whats missing is some obscure light-greenish-brown that wasn't really necessary to complete the rainbow.

Good analogy. Just because a small group of people like the obscure light-greenish-brown color, most of the viewers have probably never seen or heard of that particular color. Or at least not the majority.

EDIT 2:

masamune said:

There isn't ANYTHING from the Wars game. That's my problem. It's the only issue I have.

masamune said:

Wars has an AT that's a few sprites ripped from the game.

masamune said:

All we get are stickers.

Um, an AT and Stickers = Something. That's more than "Nothing."

masamune said:

But I guess if it's not popular in Japan, it can expect hobo in Smash Brothers.

Wasn't Kid Icarus more popular in America than Japan, or something like that?

EDIT 3: (Proofreading.)

[TV Eye]

arcadenik said:

I blame Kojima for having the nerve to "practically beg" Sakurai to put Snake, a character whose franchise is mostly on Sony consoles, in Brawl.

I too blame Kojima for adding a unique and awesome fighter. Shame on you Kojima! We want our clones of Nintendo characters! Give us Daisy! Give us Dr. Mario! Give us Dark Samus!

[Arcadenik]

I see you enjoy the art of sarcasm.... but no, we don't want clones of existing Nintendo characters. At least Daisy and Dark Samus are alternate colors for Peach and Samus. Why is Wolf even a character? So Sakurai could cut corners and put in a clone instead of an original character like Krystal?

[The Qu]

Dark Samus isn't an alt color for Samus, thats Dark Suit Samus. And Dark Samus wouldn't be a clone. I don't think at any point in Metroid Prime 2 or 3 does she do anything resembling any of Samus' moves, save the Spark Run (Gah, I forgot the real name for it. >.<) in MP3, which Samus doesn't have in the Prime games. But I'm glad she's a trophy, at the least. Hope its the MP2 design.

[Neko Neko Panic]

I see no problem with Snake... I mean sure, maybe he wasn't in the poll, but he did start off on a Nintendo console, and he's quite a unique character compared to the others so he brings something to the game, so no need to villify Hideo Kojima.