|
|
Post by Wildcat on Nov 14, 2008 10:39:41 GMT -5
Hello? How on Earth can you compare those titles to what had happened to DK in Jungle Beat!? Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask still had all the same enemies, elements and references to the previous titles. Jungle Beat had none, except DK himself. I can easily compare things. I didn't realize we were going to get really uptight about our definitions of "the same treatment" here. I notice that you didn't decide to include the rest of my post, which were much better examples. At this point, if we want to get a touch more anal, I could throw out Wind Waker, which radically changed the look, design and feel of the Zelda series. Sure, some of the same enemies, weapons and of course, the characters are there, but they have been changed dramatically, to the point that some Zelda fans were prone to whine about losing their cherished "mature" Zelda look and boycotting the game. Phantom Hourglass could be an even better example, since they redesigned the controls for the DS touch screen, in a similar manner to how DK:JB worked out with the bongos. When I referred to Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask, they were departures from the usual Zelda motif (I said as much) - LA being a dream land with Link, his tools and some enemies being the same as usual, but the entire cast and universe was shaken up. Majora's Mask is the same deal - it's an alternate universe with a very different gameplay mechanic. But Zelda isn't the best candidate for this discussion, I will agree. If we want to strip out EVERYTHING that was in a previous game outside of a few bits and elements, which seems to be the argument here, I can't point at a Nintendo Zelda title and do that...outside of Zelda II, which is the most radically different Zelda of all. Let's go to Mario, shall we? Mario's career began in Donkey Kong. If we compare that to Mario Bros., the gameplay mechanics are very different. I'd say that only Mario's ability to move and jump are the only things carried over. If we then carried that over to Super Mario Bros., we debatably could add in turtle enemies (although they were renamed Koopa Troopas over Shellcreepers) to the ability to move and jump, and that'd be about it. Super Mario Bros. 2/USA changes everything again. You can jump on enemies, a la SMB, but it won't kill them. Mushrooms, Starmen and POW blocks add to the continuity, but outside of Starmen, they all act differently from their origin. Mario's early days sure were all radically different! No need to get pricky, BTW. If you read the rest of my post, I think I provided some pretty solid examples of "the same treatment". Wrecking Crew, Dr. Mario, NES Open Tournament Golf, Yoshi's Cookie, and Wario's Woods' connection to the Mario universe is sparse at best. Hell, Yoshi's Island threw out a lot of the usual Mario mechanics as well, yet I don't hear too many people complaining about it. I maintain my argument on the 3D games, too. Look at Super Mario 64, Zelda: Ocarina of Time, and Metroid Prime compared to their 2D counterparts, and you'll find some big differences. And if we want to use time as an example, Metroid went about 8 years without a new title. When they finally arrived, Metroid Prime and Fusion proved to be very different, in one way or another, to the first three. More people, from what I've read, jumped Fusion's more linear nature than Prime's radical reinvention of the series. If this doesn't help convince you that Nintendo has done some experimenting with Mario and Zelda like they did with DK:JB, I don't know what will. |
|
|
|
Post by Fryguy64 on Nov 14, 2008 13:14:39 GMT -5
Are you kidding me? DKC characters fit perfectly. Rambi is exactly like Hoofer, Helibird is exactly like Squawks, Orca is like Enguarde, and throwing monkeys are just like barrel cannons. They could have fit, they just chose to replace them. Have you actually played the game? Hoofer and Orca were way too big to be replaced with Rambi or Enguarde. The Party Monkeys wouldn't have worked as Barrel Cannons at all, as the whole idea is that if you don't hit the drum at the right moment you fall straight past the Party Monkeys. Barrel Cannons also aren't very good at clapping to help you keep rhythm. The only one I would concede is Helibird, who could easily have been replaced with Squawks. Well did Mario Galaxy HAVE to have the same enemies and characters either? No. But they still did. I guess Mario fanservice is more important, right? It is totally irrelevant which games don't and which ones do. I fear you missed my point. If you are presenting a radical departure from gameplay, then locking yourself down into a pre-existing subset of characters can stifle your creativity. Could you have stuffed Donkey Kong stuff into there? Yes, of course you could. Is it a good game without all that stuff? Yes, it's a fantastic game. Would adding stuff in have added anything to it other than providing a consistent grounding for obsessive compulsive fanboys? No. Not from your point of view. But imagine how a fan might feel. Are you suggesting for one second that I am NOT a Donkey Kong fan? I am a huge Donkey Kong fan. I was obsessed with all of the DKC games when they first came out, and have bought all of the GBA remakes as well. Donkey Kong 94 is one of my favourite Game Boy games ever, and I have gone back to enjoy the arcade games since first discovering MAME. I played and loved King of Swing and Jungle Climber. I bought both Donkey Konga games, even though I have no rhythm. And I LOVE Jungle Beat. So, I am a massive Donkey Kong fan. I love the characters, I love the settings, I love the games. So did I think it was weird that there were no DK references in Jungle Beat? At first, yes. Did I let it ruin my enjoyment of a highly entertaining game? No, I didn't. And why? Because I am not an obsessive-compulsive fa... oh wait, I've done this bit... |
|
Grandy02
Balloon Fighter
I'm so happy today
Posts: 847
|
Post by Grandy02 on Nov 14, 2008 13:59:59 GMT -5
I'd be angry if they abandoned all the DKC content once and for all. But they don't do so, it is this single game, Jungle Beat, which doesn't have DKC characters except for DK himself. But since they still use them in games after Jungle Beat, it's not a big problem. Jungle Climber even tried to use as much content from DKC as possible, with the gameplay style of its prequel. More and more DK characters make the step into Mario sports titles. Everything is fine.
I wouldn' t like it if Mario & Co. appeared in EVERY game as paper figures. But it's exclusive to the Paper Mario games, and the unique style is an excellent variety. The style is an exception. Jungle Beat is an exception. Variety makes it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Manspeed on Nov 14, 2008 18:56:27 GMT -5
The reason JB and JC use different amounts of DK-related content is because the Climber and Barrel Blast games were made by PAON, a company that apparently likes the DK franchise. Meanwhile, JB was made by Nintendo Tokyo, who apparently could give two shits about DK but obsess over Mario. Go figure.  I still can't help but feel that if JB didn't have DK as the protagonist, it wouldn't make much of a difference. When one speaks of the experimentation done with other Nintendo properties, they don't realize that thematically those games weren't anywhere near as much of a radical departure from what was already there. I wouldn't have minded the lack of DK stuff in JB nearly as much if all this new content actually looked and felt like something you'd find in a DK game. If anything, it looks more like Yoshi's Story or something. |
|
|
|
Post by Dances in Undergarments on Nov 14, 2008 19:12:04 GMT -5
I still can't help but feel that if JB didn't have DK as the protagonist, it wouldn't make much of a difference. If it didn't have DK as the protagonist I wouldn't get to watch whiny DK fans complain about it. Wildcat gave some brilliant examples of changes within a series that the DK fanboys won't read because they don't care and all they care about is the fact there's no Diddy Kong because that would make the game a million times better. Even though the only time Diddy ever did anything decent ever was his little boombox routine at the end of the level in DKC2. At least argue for Dixie Kong, a useful Kong, you fools. |
|
|
|
Post by TV Eye on Nov 14, 2008 20:29:17 GMT -5
Wildcat gave some brilliant examples of changes within a series that the DK fanboys won't read because they don't care and all they care about is the fact there's no Diddy Kong because that would make the game a million times better. Even though the only time Diddy ever did anything decent ever was his little boombox routine at the end of the level in DKC2. QFT +1 karma What I wonder is why don't the DK fans clamor on about Chunky, Kiddy, and Lanky not appearing in recent DK games... |
|
|
|
Post by Hiker of Games on Nov 14, 2008 20:40:02 GMT -5
They do, believe me. Actually Lanky appeared in Barrel Blast, so the only ones that are overdue for a reappearance are Chunky, Kiddy... and more importantly, Swanky.
|
|
|
|
Post by TV Eye on Nov 14, 2008 20:43:03 GMT -5
They do, believe me. Actually Lanky appeared in Barrel Blast, so the only ones that are overdue for a reappearance are Chunky, Kiddy... and more importantly, Swanky. Hmm, that's what I thought... |
|
|
|
Post by Koopaul on Nov 14, 2008 21:41:23 GMT -5
If you are presenting a radical departure from gameplay, then locking yourself down into a pre-existing subset of characters can stifle your creativity. Not at all. Gameplay and character-content are two entirely different things. The Mario RPG's have radically different gameplay (and while they do have tons of original content) still keep the content of previous Mario titles in it despite having a "radical departure from gameplay". I don't mind having new content, in fact, I applaud it, I look for the day Mario fights a new final boss in one of his 3D adventures. But when you completely sever the ties to previous established titles, it's like saying you don't care. Could you have stuffed Donkey Kong stuff into there? Yes, of course you could. Is it a good game without all that stuff? Yes, it's a fantastic game. Would adding stuff in have added anything to it other than providing a consistent grounding for obsessive compulsive fanboys? No. Well I'm not talking gameplay. I loved Jungle Beat's gameplay. I think it was the most enjoyable game on the Gamecube. I LOVED Jungle Beat too. I argued many of times with the DKU community saying how great it was. But I could not argue with them that it was insulting to make it without our favorite characters. No those characters wouldn't make the game any better, but would having your favorite character in Brawl make the game any better either? Then why do people hope to see "character A" in Samsh Bros? Is it because they think it will make the gameplay better? Please tell me that Fryguy because I was under the impression that it was for another reason. |
|
|
|
Post by Fryguy64 on Nov 14, 2008 22:11:24 GMT -5
Not at all. Gameplay and character-content are two entirely different things. The Mario RPG's have radically different gameplay (and while they do have tons of original content) still keep the content of previous Mario titles in it despite having a "radical departure from gameplay". I don't mind having new content, in fact, I applaud it, I look for the day Mario fights a new final boss in one of his 3D adventures. But when you completely sever the ties to previous established titles, it's like saying you don't care. The common misconception - Super Mario RPG features a ton of new and familiar characters (with badly translated names - this title is almost as guilty as Yoshi's Island for its horrible localisation). But enemies in an RPG don't need to be anything other than a selection of spreadsheet statistics. You could replace any RPG enemy with any other RPG enemy and it wouldn't make any difference. Each enemy is a small handful of numbers. Then why do people hope to see "character A" in Samsh Bros? Is it because they think it will make the gameplay better? Please tell me that Fryguy because I was under the impression that it was for another reason. I'm glad you enjoyed Jungle Beat for what it is. When I say I want X in Smash Bros... I don't mean in the most recent release - it's who I would like to see in a future release. I think it's just as pathetic for people to complain that Dixie isn't in Brawl as they are to complain that she wasn't in Jungle Beat. As soon as Brawl's full character roster was known, I switched my allegiances to SSB4. Takamaru and Sukapon for SSB4! After all... SSBB is out, and it's so super-awesome, why would I complain about what ISN'T in it? Such a thing would be stupid! And that's where I stand on DKJB! |
|
|
|
Post by Arcadenik on Nov 14, 2008 22:21:44 GMT -5
Wow.... you brought up a good point, koopaul. Why do we want "character x" or "character y" in a game? Is it because we think they will make the gameplay better? No, its because we want them in to enhance our game enjoyment... what's why its called "fan service" Would a playable Takamaru and a playable Sukapon and a playable Mega Man make Brawl a better game? No. It just enhances your gaming experience more enjoyable. I wanted to play as Duck Hunt Dog in Smash, not because it would make it a better game, but because I wanted to have fun playing as the dog. At least Little Mac and Meowth are in as summons... On the flipside, why do some not want to have Krystal in Smash? Is it because she will ruin the gameplay? No! Its because they feel she will ruin their enjoyment of the game. So, I can see where Koopaul is coming from... he likes DKJB for what it is, but feels that it would be more enjoyable if it had characters and enemies from DKC, not just Donkey Kong alone by himself. For that, I'll have to raise your karma.  |
|
|
|
Post by The Qu on Nov 14, 2008 23:03:46 GMT -5
Hate to but in, but what familier characters had badly translated names in SMRPG? Or YI, for that matter, although I know of the localization issues in that one.
|
|
BeamClaws
Balloon Fighter
Beam claws closes the gap with his excellent foot speed!
Posts: 934
|
Post by BeamClaws on Nov 15, 2008 1:12:52 GMT -5
I sure don't remember any in that game.
And how exactly was it insulting to not include characers that would have no point in a game?
|
|
Grandy02
Balloon Fighter
I'm so happy today
Posts: 847
|
Post by Grandy02 on Nov 15, 2008 6:11:58 GMT -5
Hate to but in, but what familier characters had badly translated names in SMRPG? Or YI, for that matter, although I know of the localization issues in that one. I guess Fryguy means things like this: Goby is actually Cheep-Cheep (Pukupuku in Japanese) Sky Troopa is actually Koopa Paratroopa (Patapata in Japanese) Sparky is actually Podoboo (Bubble in Japanese) Big Boo is actually just a Boo (Teresa in Japanese) NokNok Shell is actually Koopa Shell (Nokonoko Shell in Japanese) |
|
|
|
Post by Fryguy64 on Nov 15, 2008 9:43:28 GMT -5
Hate to but in, but what familier characters had badly translated names in SMRPG? Or YI, for that matter, although I know of the localization issues in that one. And on top of Grandy's list: Magmite is Magmet - a kind of Buzzy Beetle. Spookum is Muucho - Snifit King Calamari is Takotsubo Gesso - A Blooper Shy Away is Tondaria - Beezo (SMB2) |
|
