Play On the Wii Selection

[Wildcat]

Nov 16, 2008 10:18:58 GMT -5 Fryguy64 said:

How come nobody bitches about Diddy Kong Racing like this? In fact, there are excessive and insane efforts to try and write everything in DKR into the Donkey Kong canon, but it features nothing from the DKC games except Diddy.

But along comes Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, and because it stars player 1 rather than player 2, it's less acceptable?

If someone can provide an intelligent answer as to how Jungle Beat is different to Diddy Kong Racing in this regards, I will back down and stop thinking you're all moaning little idiots.

That's marvelous, Fry. Despite the Kremling, the bananas, and naturally Diddy, there's very little resemblence to the DKC universe in DKR. Since we're apparently debating character content now (I wish the argument would be consistant), this is a delightfully valid point. And I still stand with my original argument - the early Super Mario Bros. series history stands, since Donkey Kong, Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros. USA/2 all star Mario, but all work differently from one another and all feature their own enemies, environments and items. If we are truly arguing radical changing of the character's interaction with their environment, then the Mario series trumps DK, in my opinion.

[TV Eye]

What's with this talk about Smash Bros.? Are people actually using it as a way to prove how important characters are? What would Smash Bros. be without Nintendo characters? It would be its own series, I guess.

Gah! I can't even express how retarded that sounds. Smash Bros. is completely based on its characters, Donkey Kong is not!

Sometimes I wonder how people can survive without the slightest amount of common sense.

[Manspeed]

How's Donkey Kong not based on it's characters? If there weren't a big ape in the lead role... then it wouldn't be, well.... Donkey Kong.

In the case of DKR, that wasn't always intended to be a DK game, and it still sort of isn't. It's a Diddy Kong game.

This goes back to what I said before. Either way, I'm not really complaining, just expressing bewilderment. I don't follow the DKU school of thought either. JB's bongo controls never bothered me much even though I personally don't like to play the game, but I really can't understand why they left out everything DK-related. Is there a definite answer to this?

[Grandy02]

Nov 16, 2008 13:32:38 GMT -5 TV Eye said:

What's with this talk about Smash Bros.? Are people actually using it as a way to prove how important characters are? What would Smash Bros. be without Nintendo characters? It would be its own series, I guess.

Gah! I can't even express how retarded that sounds. Smash Bros. is completely based on its characters, Donkey Kong is not!

Sometimes I wonder how people can survive without the slightest amount of common sense.

It was a response to

Oct 10, 2358 14:41:09 GMT -5 Spud said:

I still don't see why you are upset. The gameplay mechanics are what make the games.

Of course, the DK series don't build as heavy on its characters as Smash Bros. does. Did never say that. Just wanted to say that vg characters aren't unimportant for the games, the game mechanics aren't the only part of them. At the end, everyone can form his or her own wizzleing personal opinion on the importance of the fictional characters in video games. I think they are important. They are people who don't give a hobo about them and don't do more than playing. Well, each to their own.

[TV Eye]

Nov 16, 2008 13:46:07 GMT -5 Manspeed said:

How's Donkey Kong not based on it's characters? If there weren't a big ape in the lead role... then it wouldn't be, well.... Donkey Kong.

I said characters, not character. It's plural.

Does a Donkey Kong game have to have Diddy to be a DK game? No.
Does a Zelda game have to have Ganondorf to be a Zelda game? No.
Does a Mario game have to have Luigi to be a Mario game? No.

But does a Smash Bros. game have to have Nintendo characters to be a Smash Bros. game? Yes, yes, and another YES!

[Flint]

The way I see it, all you need to make a Donkey Kong game is the Big ape himself and Barrels, Bananas are a plus.

DK arcade has them,
DKC has them.
DK King of swing series has them.
DKJB has them.

Same with other series, you only need Samus to make a Metroid game and you only need the titlte to make a Final Fantasy game.

DKJB is not a game in the Donkey kong Country series, is a game from the Donkey Kong Franchise.

[Smashchu]

An opinion is an opinion. For far too long have we tried to scorn those who dislike DKJB. They don't like it just as much as anyone else likes or hates a game.

[8bitretroshit]

Anyway despite all this character mumbo jumbo, is the game any fun? I always like a good platformer, but I have the idea the game's kinda short. How many levels/worlds does it have?

In other words gimme some opinions if you've played the game, thanks.

[Manspeed]

I already said that I don't think it's a bad game. I'm just not too fond of playing it. All I really want is a solid reason for the lack of ties to any other DK game outside of DK himself.

[Erik Aston]

Oh, for fart's sake. I had this old dormant account and had to log in because your discussions here get so stupid.

It isn't about characters, or gameplay (though whoever said that character design and gameplay are unrelated isn't thinking straight), its about BRANDING.

Donkey Kong is a brand name. Brand names are supposed to create certain associations.

When you show disregard for those associations that you've built up over time, OF COURSE it angers the fanbase. One classic example is the decline of Harley Davidson when they tried to compete with the smaller Japanese bikes instead of maintaining the muscle that their established customers wanted. It took them decades to rebuild the old brand back to where it is today.

That's why it's important that games like Yoshi's Island and Diddy Kong Racing and Wario Land, which diverged from those traditional associations, put a different character's name up front. They establish off-the-bat that this is a spin-off, and not replacing the traditional games.

For Donkey Kong, for the most part, Nintendo seems to not care about the brand that Rare established for the series. Part of that is characters like Diddy Kong and K. Rool. Part of it is the humor, and the character design, and the purposefully stupid plotlines, etc.

You'll note that there hasn't been a true hit for the DK series since DK64. That's because Nintendo has branded some different games as DK games, that don't really hold with what fans are expecting from the brand, and they haven't done an effective rebranding.

You'll also note that people DID get up in arms over Wink Waker, and many of them got over it when they played the game and saw that Nintendo really hadn't abandoned the Zelda brand as much as they thought. Games like SMB2 and Zelda 2 on NES DID sell less than other games in the series, and Nintendo never diverged as much with their main series after those. With the radical switch to 3D, Mario sales HAVE gone down, but went back up with New SMB, because that fast twitch-based gameplay which isn't possible in 3D is part of the brand. Etc.

[Spud]

Erikaston wins. Argument over.

I honestly can't believe that I personally was stupid enough to over look this.

[Dances in Undergarments]

Indeed, we've finally got a well put forward argument for the other side. Except Donkey Kong was a brand when the arcade game came out. And Donkey Kong Country shattered it. If Donkey Kong 64 is treated as Donkey Kong Country 64, then you could argue that 'Donkey Kong' is a different brand to 'Donkey Kong Country', which could solve branding issues.

Still, really good argument.

[Dasher Misire]

Erikaston, thank you. Diddy Kong Racing was never a new direction, but a side-title that still kept the feel of the DK universe.

DK Jungle Beat dropped everything good about the franchise and is not really a spinoff. It's their supposed new direction. I swear, without Paon coming into play I wouldn't have been able to stand Nintendo right there and then. They ruined a good franchise that was at least being used. Hell, I think with Nintendo's current state of slipping into the toilet with modern day Rare, Sega, and EA Games to name a few, they'll ignore the fact Jungle Beat didn't sell and make a sequel. Without anything that makes the DK series the DK series.

Get rid of the freaking DK brand and make Jungle Beat with some other character. It ruins the name. Everyone who loves JB is going to snap at me now, but good bet none of these JB fans really valued the classic franchise to begin with.

As for the DK arcade stuff.... the arcade games were tried as a series but stopped when Donkey Kong 3 was panned. See, they stopped making the series then. Focused on Mario. And Rare took the BASIC concept, made the Donkey Kong old, and did a series with a whole different style and feel.

[BeamClaws]

That's the first time I agree with an argument ending. He basically took a few words out of my mouth, and added in his own.

Dang.

[Erik Aston]

I'm sure if you look back at it, there was some backlash to the DKC rebranding from the hardcore DK Arcade players.

But it was a purposeful re-branding, because the old DK brand was nearly defunct. The basis of the first DK game (and the character) in ripping off King Kong to provide narrative and context didn't really create a basis for a franchise, which is probably why Mario was spun-off to become the main franchise right away. The recent DK games are not a purposeful re-branding: just look at the box arts that evoke the DKC era Donkey Kong, only to be substantially different games.

I can tell you from my own experience that the switch-over to the new DKC brand wasn't perfect. I was a kid when DKC came out, and too young to remember the arcade games. I was really into Donkey Kong Country, as were all of my friends. When I saw DK '94 in a friend's Nintendo Power (or something), I was initially confused because it was this totally different thing.

The problem today is that Rare had their own internal processes and values and motivations that they put into the games, and became a part of what people expected from the DKC brand, but which are different from Nintendo's own processes and values and motivations. (Not better or worse, necesarily.)