|
|
Post by nocturnal YL on Oct 27, 2009 6:29:21 GMT -5
Once again, like I said, Mario is unique among Nintendo franchises in that the US version stuff often flow back to Japan. As far as Japanese versus English distinction with the Koopalings are concerned, there are only two choices... The Koopalings are Bowser's children or they are not. We know Bowser Jr is about the same size as them and that even in Japan, he is the canonical son of Bowser. It is quite obvious from their looks that they are the same race as Bowser and Bowser Jr. We also know they have their own rooms in Bowser's Castle from the Mario and Luigi games, so they live with Bowser and Bowser Jr. So summary. Bowser & Bowser Jr. are the same race as the Koopalings The Koopalings are around the same age as Bowser Jr and thus children. The Koopalings live with Bowser. Conclusion is that the Koopalings are Bowser's children, even if they could be adopted. I'm looking at YOU, Morton! First of all, stop misunderstanding Japan. I hate it when the regions misunderstand each other - it happens a lot. Don't talk like they have everything different by default - grab some actual Japanese version description. READ THEM. And then: - Own rooms in M&L1: You don't even know if those are their own rooms. Plus, inter-game location comparision is meaningless in Mario series. Not to mention RPGs take liberty to elaborate things a bit - seriously, if I ask you what does this thing called "Toad Town", "Mario's home" or "Peach's Castle" looks like, you can't really answer. - The Koopalings live with Bowser? [citation needed] Can't they just happen to appear with Bowser when they invade the Mushroom Kingdom? Mario & Luigi often appear in Peach's castle. Does that mean they live with Peach? Probably not; games showing Mario's residence often show the bros' own home, separate from the castle. - The Koopalings' age is rather undetermined too, as does most Mario characters. Even with a profile or something found in game, it's often game-specific. - Of course, saying they are Bowser's children is a jumpy conclusion. Let me put your words in a more "logical" way: Let C be the set of Bowser's children, and L be the set of Koopas appearing with Bowser when they fight the bros. You're assuming ∀x(x∈L → x∈C), which is not proven to be true. Thus, the conclusion that L = C does not have a definite truth value either. Regardless, what you said about Morton is still a good laugh. |
|
|
|
Post by Fryguy64 on Oct 27, 2009 9:34:11 GMT -5
I jump in here to point out the old scientific writing maxim: For every formula you put into your book, you lose 10,000 readers.
Still, the point stands. We don't know that the Koopa Kids live with Bowser. In SMB3 they only showed up in the airships, in SMW they had their own castles, in Yoshi's Safari they were in Jewlry Land, in M&L:SS they were in Bowser's Castle... but (significantly) Bowser wasn't running the castle at the time - Cackletta was.
And the Koopa Kids haven't been given ages. Presumably they're the same species as Bowser, but then so are Koopa Troopas, Hammer Bros., Boom Boom etc... they're Koopas! Boom Boom is significant because I've never heard anyone argue he's Bowser's child, or even a child at all, despite being a little smaller than the Koopa Kids.
I find it significant that somebody in Japan updated the Wikipedia article to say they are Bowser's children. Presumably it has been written down in a feature or interview somewhere. But before NSMB there was nothing concrete in Japan to say they were his children. This much is true.
|
|
|
|
Post by kirbychu on Oct 27, 2009 10:28:31 GMT -5
I'd be very surprised if they aren't confirmed to be his kids in Japan this time around. All of their names (and even Mario's name) leaked back from American versions to become tue in Japanese versions too, and aside from Superstar Saga, every English version they've ever appeared in has called them his kids.
Plus, look at them. They look like his kids! Less so than Bowser Jr., but enough to stand out.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2009 11:43:34 GMT -5
Lemmy Koopa: Lemmy, from Motorhead. Man, that guy's popping up all over the place, lately. He plays (for all intents and purposes) himself in Brutal Legend, and then this standup comedian I saw over the weekend mentioned him in a bit of his called something like, The Metal School of Badass for Emo Pussies, and now you mentioned this. I guess the resurfacing of the Koopalings lends itself to that. It's a conspiracy. >_> This whole bit strikes me as being a bit too far-reaching, trying to hunt down some nonexistent canon within the mostly-canonless Mario universe. What nonexistent canon? I've used logical conclusions. Yes, Mario is mostly canonless, but it's also consistant in roles for its characters. Bowser Jr when he is referenced is always Bowser's child. The Koopalings when they are referenced are portrayed as Bowser's children. So in a game with both, like the one we are discussing, Bowser has eight children instead of one or seven. Canon is a laughable thing in the Mario universe, even in the RPGs. XD Yeah, characters follow certain personality traits (Mario is an altruist, Luigi is a coward, Bowser is a parody of evil, Peach is mostly useless etc), but the closest thing to canon is (ironically) Fawful, who mentions his hatred of "Red and Green" in M&L2 and 3, and even then he doesn't actually say why he hates them. Also, I read (somewhere) that the Koopalings were based in name and appearance on real people - Ludwig von Koopa, for example, is based on Ludwig von Beethoven, even sporting Beethoven's funkadelic hair. The old interview, and one of my first "developer facts", is that the Koopa Kids were (loosely) based on the Super Mario Bros. 3 development team. The names weren't given to them until America picked up the game nearly 2 years after its Japanese release. Presumably Dan Owsen or somebody came up with the names of the Koopa Kids based on celebrity names (it's not hard to see why he gave Ludwig his name!) They also stated that they were actually Bowser's kids (rather than just minions, as assumed in Japan). Of course, as we know, the Koopa Kids are one of those few instances where the American translations leak backwards into Japan. I wouldn't be surprised if Japan never takes on the full names of the characters though. For them, Morton will never be a "Junior" and none of them will ever have the last name Koopa. Oh, well that works, too. ;D What do I know? |
|
|
|
Post by Manspeed on Oct 27, 2009 11:50:40 GMT -5
You know, regarding the ages of the Koopalings, I remember hearing somewhere that the Japanese SMW manual states that Morton is the oldest. If you look at the new hi-res renders it's pretty evident that Morton is larger than all the other Koopalings. The only other notable things about him is how he gets the most screen time out of all the Koopalings during that old animated SMB3 commercial in Japan, and how his full name is "Morton Koopa Jr.". Now that I think of it, are they even gonna refer to them all by their full names this time around? It would be weird seeing TWO Koopalings with "Jr" in their names. The only other possible explanation I can think of is that the Koopalings are not Bowser's kids but his nieces and nephews, which would A) explain why they all look different and B) explain why Morton is a "Jr.": Bowser has a brother named Morton.  ...Sometimes I wonder if they deliberately leave this stuff out just to keep us talking about it... |
|
|
|
Post by TV Eye on Oct 27, 2009 12:25:46 GMT -5
"Koopa Kids" could refer to the fact that they are Koopa's and kids. Has it been stated specifically that they are Bowser's children? If not, then for all we know they are Bowser's brothers, nephews, or cousins. (Jeez, now I'm getting mixed up in all this)
|
|
|
|
Post by nocturnal YL on Oct 27, 2009 12:51:31 GMT -5
Some sources say "Jr" is there because Bowser's father is the Morton Sr in question. Again, there's nothing in-game to support it. Since the relationship, like many other story-related stuff in Nintendo games (which, I'd say, include the likes of PKMN, FE and GS), are up to the player's imagination, I'd now like to think of them as some sort of gang members, now led by Bowser Jr. Canon is a laughable thing in the Mario universe, even in the RPGs. XD Yeah, characters follow certain personality traits (Mario is an altruist, Luigi is a coward, Bowser is a parody of evil, Peach is mostly useless etc), but the closest thing to canon is (ironically) Fawful, who mentions his hatred of "Red and Green" in M&L2 and 3, and even then he doesn't actually say why he hates them. A bit off topic here, but Fawful himself explained that... Oh wait. it's spoiler. Highlight: he just "wanted some kingdoms conquered", but Red and Green mustaches always showed up to ruin his plans. |
|
|
|
Post by kirbychu on Oct 27, 2009 15:34:53 GMT -5
"Koopa Kids" could refer to the fact that they are Koopa's and kids. Has it been stated specifically that they are Bowser's children? If not, then for all we know they are Bowser's brothers, nephews, or cousins. (Jeez, now I'm getting mixed up in all this) But they're called Ko-Koopa in Japan, where "Koopa" is specifically Bowser himself. So Ko-Koopa literally translates as Little Bowsers, Child Bowsers or Bowser Kids. |
|
|
|
Post by Manspeed on Oct 27, 2009 17:38:09 GMT -5
Some sources say "Jr" is there because Bowser's father is the Morton Sr in question. Again, there's nothing in-game to support it. That's just popular fanwank. It's mostly used in fan fiction as far as I can tell. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2009 19:06:54 GMT -5
Canon is a laughable thing in the Mario universe, even in the RPGs. XD Yeah, characters follow certain personality traits (Mario is an altruist, Luigi is a coward, Bowser is a parody of evil, Peach is mostly useless etc), but the closest thing to canon is (ironically) Fawful, who mentions his hatred of "Red and Green" in M&L2 and 3, and even then he doesn't actually say why he hates them. A bit off topic here, but Fawful himself explained that... Oh wait. it's spoiler. Highlight: he just "wanted some kingdoms conquered", but Red and Green mustaches always showed up to ruin his plans.Which is awfully vague, don't you think? Really, the reason I would think he'd hate the Mario Bros. was because they ruined Cackletta's plans and likely killed her. |
|
|
|
Post by Fryguy64 on Oct 29, 2009 4:35:43 GMT -5
And they beat up Fawful, destroyed his machines, and reduced him from an insane genius lackey for someone about to take over the world... into a lowly shop keeper in M&L2.
No wonder he's pissed off at Mario and Luigi! I fail to see how anybody could think that was vague! He's a villain, a genius, and totally insane...
A little bit on canon
As you all know my opinion of "canon" is not what most fanwankers think of. I mean it in the... you know... actual sense of the word, rather than the mystical cloak sense.
Mario games have storylines. It is canon that Bowser kidnapped Peach in Super Mario Bros. to stop her using her magic to restore her people. It is canon that the little mushroom enemies are called Goombas (it is no longer canon to say Little Goombas, as this has been retconned by SMB3 and beyond).
In short, canon is like a pool of information on a series, where everything in the pool is accurate and official. Lots of things go into it, some stuff gets taken out or replaced. Some things hover around the sidelines.
The biggest tyres in the pool are translation errors - giving multiple names to the same enemy across multiple games, for example. NoA is getting better at sorting out their own messy canon now, and we have to make sure, when using English names, we are using the right one. Boo, rather than Boo Diddly or Boo Buddy. Spike instead of Gabon... the list is huge.
Nintendo Japan is also changing the canon - they have created hundreds of Mario enemies, and through new games they are cutting out a lot of similar enemies in favour of a smaller pool. Don't expect to see Beezo again while we have Fly Guy about, and get used to having Goomba, Giant Goomba and Micro-Goomba, and disregard any other names given to the various different sizes.
Despite the simplicity of the Mario series, it still has a canonical pool to draw from, and it's making sure we as fans are drawing from the same pool as the game creators. In this rare case, it seems the developers of New SMB Wii are actually drawing from Nintendo of America's expanded storyline for the Koopa Kids (which doesn't usually happen).
But there has to be a single canonical pool to draw from, and sometimes we may have to go behind NoA's back and take that information from the source Japan is using, as that's waaaay more likely to be accurate in 99% of cases.
|
|
|
|
Post by Manspeed on Oct 29, 2009 6:17:07 GMT -5
You forgot to mention how people seem to unknowingly start referring to things from outside sources (like the Super Show, or their own goddamn imagination) and regarding it as "canon", or taking certain parts of the series (Mario Party, the sports games) and saying they're "non-canon" just because a few things make slightly less sense within (though it reeeeeally can't be THAT hard to imagine Bowser wanting to beat Mario at any sport he can, can it?). Then you have people who "durrrr Mario haz no canon don't talk about it", as if Mario is like some sort of abstract painting without any consistency to speak of. |
|
|
|
Post by Game Guru on Oct 29, 2009 13:51:04 GMT -5
As for there being both a Morton Jr. and a Bowser Jr, Nintendo of Japan only ever uses the first names for the Koopalings. Never the full names, which makes sense because the name Bowser is never used in Japan only Daimao Kuppa or Great Demon King Koopa. So Morton is the only name Japan would know for the character.
But, don't we have Melee as a source as well? What does Bowser's trophy description say in Japan? The English one spoke of the Koopalings.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hiker of Games on Oct 29, 2009 14:34:59 GMT -5
Because if we know one thing about SSB trophies, they're absolutely infallible.
|
|
|
|
Post by Da Robot on Oct 29, 2009 17:59:51 GMT -5
|
|
As far as Japanese versus English distinction with the Koopalings are concerned, there are only two choices... The Koopalings are Bowser's children or they are not. We know Bowser Jr is about the same size as them and that even in Japan, he is the canonical son of Bowser. It is quite obvious from their looks that they are the same race as Bowser and Bowser Jr. We also know they have their own rooms in Bowser's Castle from the Mario and Luigi games, so they live with Bowser and Bowser Jr.
