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Post by kirbychu on Jan 27, 2012 7:06:11 GMT -5
Generally the game shepherds you by preventing you from getting very far without certain power-ups, and then telling you exactly what you should be looking for, even if it doesn't say where that thing is. This sounds like exactly what Majora's Mask does. The Zoras tell you you need a golden fish, but they don't tell you where to get one. You have to work that out yourself. It's even in the same area, unlike most of the stuff you have to search for in LA.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Feb 3, 2012 5:44:23 GMT -5
a bunch of stuff in an angry fashion. That was completely not my intention. I can only work with what I have, and that is that you take issue with MM's lack of sign-posting. But in any case... 1) What kind of shitty explorer goes exploring in houses? The kind who attack chickens until they get swarmed by a flock of its angry brethren, break rich douchebags' priceless vases, hack up every plant long enough to maybe possibly have a gem underneath, defy every sign they see in as ironic a way as they can, and where there's nothing to defy, just flat-out obliterate it for no reason whatsoever. I apologize for any running gags I may have missed. 2) The challenge of putting something off the beaten path? It's called a clock. Trying to figure out where you need to go next is one thing. Trying to figure it out with only one (real) hour to do so? That's different. And no, I'm not thinking you're just complaining about the seahorse. I remember having some trouble with Ikana Graveyard, the Goron Village, the Racetrack, and the seahorse. But I do think you're being a little harsh about it. Between Tingle's maps, the fact that you can still see the forks which lead to these places (just because the landmark is right in front of you doesn't mean you can't see the road fans/forks out there,) and the various forced turn-arounds (chasing Darmani, pushing Mikau back to shore,) showing you the place, it's not like you completely miss the more tucked-away spots. In any case, it seems we explore differently anyways. From what you're saying, and thus from what I understand, it seems that when you explore, you tend to have a goal in mind. I don't. When I explore, I look around, get side-tracked, and end up with a ton of booty before thinking "Wait, what was I doing fucking with those beavers?" and getting off to the Gerudo. Replace nouns where relevant. ...
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Post by kirbychu on Feb 3, 2012 7:15:05 GMT -5
Oh, I completely missed Fry's last post. I wasn't trying to insult you, Fry, sorry if I came across that way. I think we just had completely opposite experiences of the game. Like I said before, MM is the only Zelda game I've actually completed all the way through with all the items and Heart Containers without having to use a guide. It's also the only one where I never found myself completely stuck for what to do to advance the story (except OoT, which never let go of my hand long enough to allow it). This is definitely down to us exploring the game world in different ways. All of the exploring required is the thing that made MM my favourite Zelda game. Discovering those things on my own gave me the same kind of sense of accomplishment I get when I trigger that "cornered" music in an Ace Attorney game. That's how I felt as a kid playing Link's Awakening, and it's the polar opposite of how I felt playing OoT. I don't think it's a failing in MM. I just think it's a different style of game than most of the series. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with you not liking the game for that reason, after all I'm sure most people here would think I'm crazy for not liking OoT so much. If they do remake MM for the 3DS, they'll definitely put in one of those hint video things OoT3D had, but I personally hope they don't do anything to change the game itself, for the same reason they went to such trouble to preserve OoT so carefully. MM is the N64 game I have the fondest memories of.
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Post by Fryguy64 on Feb 3, 2012 9:14:51 GMT -5
No that's OK. I'm not angry about it. I find myself in the uncomfortable position of trying to explain why Majora's Mask is broken, despite being a good game. A great game, even. But a great game that aggravates half of its audience with the broken parts. It's not a position I've read much about before and I wanted to give it a go. I know loads of people who say it's their favourite Zelda, and loads of people who say they couldn't "get into it", usually pointing the finger at the time limit, which I feel is very generous, flexible and lends towards the emotional feeling of the game. So I started digging a little, making mental notes while playing the game of the bits I found frustrating, checking out the more negative opinions, and this is me trying to talk them through. If anyone follows Egoraptor's Sequelitis on YouTube, you've probably heard him use the term "conveyance", which is essentially the same thing I mean by "signposting". He distinguishes between this and the kind of handholding that has been mentioned here in his Mega Man episode. I am not in favour of having my hand held through a game by, for example, Navi blurting information at me. But a trail of breadcrumbs that reveals the play mechanics and guides you through the important points is a vital part of post-8-bit game design that wasn't used as effectively in Majora's Mask as in many other games, and it's jarring. Yet, surprisingly, the signposting is extremely effective in the dungeons, making for some of the best dungeons in the entire series.
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Post by mrmolecule on May 15, 2012 10:52:23 GMT -5
I'm sure most of you already know this, but technically MM was never meant to be a "real" Zelda game, it was once known as "Zelda Gaiden" for the 64DD, literally a "side story" to Ocarina of Time (I remember reading somewhere else as well that was supposed to be five days instead of three, but in real time, utilizing the DD clock)
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Post by Spud on Jun 23, 2012 15:40:07 GMT -5
So I went back and played through up to the swamp portion so far.
the new auto-jumps are demonstrated in the very first playable part of the game but given no indication of how far over a gap they can go.
The Swamp owl statue is not immediately obvious at all, it's completely out of view unless you look around immediately rather than going to the obvious destination in front of you. However when returning to the swap boat ride to get the pictobox, the owl statue is positioned to be directly in front of you.
Majora's Mask holds a special place in my heart among Zelda games, mostly because it was the first one I had ever played. However I was very young and had strategy guides to help me through games when I first played it.
On the inverted song of time, the player passes by a scarecrow in the observatory, if they speak with it (unfortunately not an obvious thing to do as the scarecrow isn't animate at all) the player is given instructions on how to play the two variations on the song of time. But it's probably lost on the player at this point as they haven't learned any songs yet.
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Post by kirbychu on Jun 23, 2012 15:43:42 GMT -5
New auto-jumps? There were new animations, but otherwise I don't remember the jumping functioning any differently than it did in OoT... or did I just never notice what was changed?
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Post by Spud on Jun 23, 2012 15:57:15 GMT -5
I'm not sure if they are cosmetic or not. But Da Robot was saying something about them. So I was just clarifying that they are, in fact, shown early on. - There is also the strange addition of Link's new "somersaulting" auto jump, which you are never told/mentioned about. "Gee I need to get a lit deku stick up to that torch to open the door, and it looks like I have to run and jump, but the gap looks bigger than a jump from OoT, I don't think I can make it, but I'll give it a shot.Link runs up stairs, jump off ledge and performs that "somersaulting" auto jump. "What the hell, did Link just do?" EDIT:Now that I've played it a bit farther, I do think the acrobatic jumps cover a slightly longer distance than you could jump in OoT.
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Post by Da Robot on Jun 23, 2012 19:55:02 GMT -5
I'm not sure if they are cosmetic or not. But Da Robot was saying something about them. So I was just clarifying that they are, in fact, shown early on. - There is also the strange addition of Link's new "somersaulting" auto jump, which you are never told/mentioned about. "Gee I need to get a lit deku stick up to that torch to open the door, and it looks like I have to run and jump, but the gap looks bigger than a jump from OoT, I don't think I can make it, but I'll give it a shot.Link runs up stairs, jump off ledge and performs that "somersaulting" auto jump. "What the hell, did Link just do?" EDIT:Now that I've played it a bit farther, I do think the acrobatic jumps cover a slightly longer distance than you could jump in OoT. Footage of the "new somersault auto jump." (At 0:30 and also with jumping flaming deku stick at 2:18 where he does it twice and than a frontflip autojump after that which I think is new as well). This was the place where I distincly remember doing it the first time for the "what the hell?!" moment. It probably did happen eariler as Spud said but I probably didn't notice it. I can't even remember being Link in the first part of the game, just Deku Link.
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Post by kirbychu on Jun 24, 2012 6:02:25 GMT -5
I remember the flips, I just don't remember them being anything more than a visual change... and I played that game to death. You run to an edge and Link jumps it... same as OoT. He just has more than one animation for it now.
But yeah, those new jump animations are the very first thing you do when you get control of Link at the start. You have to jump three gaps (which I think were all the same size) to chase after Skull Kid. Link jumps the first one like he would in OoT, then does the two new animations over the others.
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Post by TV Eye on Jun 24, 2012 12:03:34 GMT -5
They didn't allow Link to jump any further, they were just there to help Link progressively move faster. In OoT, successive jumps would involve Link trying to collect his bearings when he landed. In MM, Link could continue making jumps without having to slow down.
Seriously you guys? Problem solved. Sheesh.
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Post by Arcadenik on Jul 6, 2012 15:08:00 GMT -5
I think the new jumps allowed Link to jump slightly higher, giving the illusion of jumping further?
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Post by Shrikeswind on Jul 7, 2012 17:55:29 GMT -5
The auto-jump, from the perspective of real world physics, would take Link farther. See, Link does, as Arcadenik points out, jump higher in MM than he does in OoT. Since the auto-jump is a horizontal jump, that extra height would mean that Link has farther he can actually go before he's below his starting point, since the added vertical distance allows him more hang-time.
And since this is actually the case, yes, Link does get farther. It's not a huge difference, mind you. The animation is mostly show to create the illusion of a significant change. In effect, however, it's more of a tweak, lengthening the jump by just enough to be worth the edit.
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