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Post by parrothead on Sept 28, 2009 1:11:43 GMT -5
Due to The Super Mario Bros. Super Show being loosely based on Super Mario Bros. 1 and 2, DiC Entertainment was having trouble trying to decide whether to use Bowser or Wart as the main antagonist of the show. They also thought that Nintendo owns the rights to use the names and looks of Bowser and Wart, so DiC took the Japanese name of Bowser, "Koopa", and added "King" to it because of him being a king, while they took Bowser's look, added a splash of Wart's green skin and topped with Wart's crown, and you get this.  Although, it might be true that DiC was translating Bowser's SMB1 sprite into an American cartoon drawing, but four years before the SMB:SS first aired, Bowser's then-new look was created and kept that way ever since The Lost Levels came out in Japan:  |
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Post by The Qu on Sept 28, 2009 1:24:11 GMT -5
Do you have a cite for this? Personally, I somewhat believe King Koopa was a combination of Bowser and Wart, and would like to see it confirmed.
As for the latter, remember we did not get Lost Levels on this side of the pond, so as far as we knew, Koopa still looked like a big green hairless turtle.
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Post by parrothead on Sept 28, 2009 1:40:05 GMT -5
I know The Lost Levels wasn't released outside of Japan back then, but DiC must of asked NoA if they could use some promotional artwork used for the game to create their own versions for the SMB:SS.
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Post by Fryguy64 on Sept 28, 2009 4:09:11 GMT -5
A few things to keep in mind. Super Mario Bros. was released worldwide in 1985, while Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels hit Japan in 1986 (along with the "modern" designs for the characters). Super Mario Bros. 2 hit the US in 1988, the same month as Super Mario Bros. 3 hit Japan. The Super Mario Bros. Super Show wasn't broadcast in the US until 1989... so they actually had a hell of a lot of artwork and reference material to work from. King Koopa as a whole is extremely odd. First of all, they called him King Koopa. We know "Koopa" is his Japanese name, but he was called Bowser in SMB 4 years earlier. They kept Princess Toadstool and Toad (although they did also appear in SMB2), but why omit "Bowser"? His design is just all around odd. It's closest likeness is the sprite from SMB, as it doesn't look anything like this:  (Although notice how the round faces of the Koopa Troopas were used, rather than the beaked faces of the SMB:TLL design. Could this have been because of the popularity of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?) And aside from the crown, I don't see why we need to drag Wart into it at all... and they called him "King Koopa", so it's not too difficult to work out why they gave him a crown. As for that chart... that Bowser artwork... is that from SMB3 or SMW? And that Wart artwork is from Super Mario All-Stars, right? Rather than his original design from the US release of SMB2:  Worth getting your timeline in order if you want to try and draw comparisons like this... |
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Post by The Qu on Sept 28, 2009 16:32:39 GMT -5
Honestly, with that art of Wart, I can see them basing King Koopa on him even more. He was a toothy bugger, wasn't he?
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Post by Manspeed on Sept 28, 2009 17:44:43 GMT -5
The other bit of evidence pointing towards them combining Wart and Bowser into one character was the heavy presence of the SMB2 minibosses and enemies as King Koopa's underlings.
It should also be noted that around the same time as the Super Show there was a line of Mario Viewmaster movies (at least I think it was Viewmaster, could've been some other toy) in which Mario faces Wart, but he's erroneously labeled as "King Koopa". This might be another bit of evidence.
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Post by Dances in Undergarments on Sept 29, 2009 4:16:56 GMT -5
outside of the fact he's green, what exactly makes him look like Wart?
King Koopa looks like Bowser's most notable features shoved onto a Crocodile. Because thats what he looked like in SMB1, and its no doubt what the makers of the show thought he was supposed to look like. He doesn't at all look like a fucking frog.
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Post by Hiker of Games on Sept 29, 2009 9:38:49 GMT -5
Which also begs the comparison of Super Show King Koopa to K. Rool.
They're green! They're mean! They like to thematically dress up in every appearance!
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Post by parrothead on Sept 30, 2009 2:15:42 GMT -5
A few things to keep in mind. Super Mario Bros. was released worldwide in 1985, while Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels hit Japan in 1986 (along with the "modern" designs for the characters). Super Mario Bros. 2 hit the US in 1988, the same month as Super Mario Bros. 3 hit Japan. The Super Mario Bros. Super Show wasn't broadcast in the US until 1989... so they actually had a hell of a lot of artwork and reference material to work from. King Koopa as a whole is extremely odd. First of all, they called him King Koopa. We know "Koopa" is his Japanese name, but he was called Bowser in SMB 4 years earlier. They kept Princess Toadstool and Toad (although they did also appear in SMB2), but why omit "Bowser"? His design is just all around odd. It's closest likeness is the sprite from SMB, as it doesn't look anything like this: (Although notice how the round faces of the Koopa Troopas were used, rather than the beaked faces of the SMB:TLL design. Could this have been because of the popularity of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?) And aside from the crown, I don't see why we need to drag Wart into it at all... and they called him "King Koopa", so it's not too difficult to work out why they gave him a crown. As for that chart... that Bowser artwork... is that from SMB3 or SMW? And that Wart artwork is from Super Mario All-Stars, right? Rather than his original design from the US release of SMB2: Worth getting your timeline in order if you want to try and draw comparisons like this... In Japan, he was (and still is) simply referred to as "Koopa". Bowser's artwork above is his Super Mario World 1 look. SOURCEWart's artwork is based on his Super Mario Advance 1 look. I don't know about King Koopa's, but despite Bowser revealing his whole look more during the release of SMB3 and later games until the SMW era ended, King Koopa was still being used. Currently, one of his infamous quotes just popped into my mind. Bowser's SMB1/SMBTLL sprite still has some yellow around his mouth, hands and feet. outside of the fact he's green, what exactly makes him look like Wart? King Koopa looks like Bowser's most notable features shoved onto a Crocodile. Because thats what he looked like in SMB1, and its no doubt what the makers of the show thought he was supposed to look like. He doesn't at all look like a fucking frog. Not just green, they also wear a crown. |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Sept 30, 2009 3:44:58 GMT -5
I'm aware of this, but my point was that Bowser was called Bowser for four years before the release of the Super Mario Bros. Super Show, so why did they use the character's Japanese name? They had to stick with the characters they had produced to tie the series together, just like they kept the Koopa Kids' made-up names in the Super Mario World show, despite them having official English names by that point... Confusing kids across the English-speaking world. We have a meeting of topics here. Yoichi Kotabe, a famous Japanese illustrator, was brought into Nintendo where he redesigned all of the Mario characters from Shigeru Miyamoto's cover art for Super Mario Bros. (see above). The updated designs for the characters were all available by 1986, as they appeared on the promotional materials for Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels (and they were also used in the SMB Game & Watch the same year). Seeing as the show didn't hit screens for another 3 years, you would have thought they would have used some of these official materials. |
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Post by Manspeed on Sept 30, 2009 10:19:02 GMT -5
I remember hearing somewhere that the shows were in production since before the games' US releases, so apparently whoever the hell was in charge of the design department clearly didn't have access to any official materials. Either that or they liked to take severe creative liberties.  Talking about this also brings to mind the super-obscure Great Mission to Rescue Peach animated film. After watching it and finding out that it was released around the same time as SMB: The Lost Levels in 1986, it's pretty surprising how much of the stuff that appears in it matches the current portrayal of Mario's world, such as Peach's appearance and Bowser's characterization, among other things. |
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Post by Dances in Undergarments on Oct 1, 2009 3:34:43 GMT -5
outside of the fact he's green, what exactly makes him look like Wart? King Koopa looks like Bowser's most notable features shoved onto a Crocodile. Because thats what he looked like in SMB1, and its no doubt what the makers of the show thought he was supposed to look like. He doesn't at all look like a fucking frog. Not just green, they also wear a crown. ...he's a king. |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Oct 1, 2009 6:26:41 GMT -5
I remember hearing somewhere that the shows were in production since before the games' US releases, so apparently whoever the hell was in charge of the design department clearly didn't have access to any official materials. Either that or they liked to take severe creative liberties. Thing is, they clearly DID have access to the official resources. Luigi is taller and skinnier than Mario, which wasn't officially laid down until the 1986 redesigns (official artwork of him before that is just a different coloured Mario). Similarly, both Peach and Toad have been redesigned to look more like their 1986 redesigns. Of course, the most obvious explanation is that they only had access to official artwork for SMB and SMB2, but didn't get to see any of the other official artwork, which is why things that don't appear in SMB2 look like they do on the cover of SMB. And of course it's possible that the designers merged the designs for Bowser and Wart without realising they were different characters (or more tantalising, that Wart was originally going to be replaced by Bowser in SMB2, but wasn't for one reason or another). My problem is that all of this seems remarkably strange, and exhibits a devastating lack of attention to the series on behalf of the creators and Nintendo of America, who should have been able to supply this stuff. It's also all speculation. Perhaps a feature is in it, but I doubt it. |
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Post by TV Eye on Oct 1, 2009 8:39:54 GMT -5
The show was crap anyways. I don't know why all this matters.
You guys should instead be asking why Ganon isn't blue anymore.
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Post by Manspeed on Oct 1, 2009 16:33:50 GMT -5
My problem is that all of this seems remarkably strange, and exhibits a devastating lack of attention to the series on behalf of the creators and Nintendo of America, who should have been able to supply this stuff. It's also all speculation. Perhaps a feature is in it, but I doubt it. Captain N had it even worse. What's your word on that? |
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