Virtual Console Size Limits

[Nester the Lark]

Since I brought it up in the VC and WiiWare news thread, I thought maybe we could discuss the size limits of the Virtual Console, and what it might mean for potential releases.

Now, I'm not an expert, so please correct me or add whatever info you know.

The Wii's internal flash memory is 512 MB. I don't know if that includes the hidden memory area, but I'm sure that info is floating around somewhere. However, despite the technical possibilities of a game fitting in that space, we know that Nintendo has a size restriction (which has not been officially revealed).

This thread at GameFAQ's lists the block sizes for every VC and WiiWare game currently available in North America. It also makes the assertion that 1 block = 1 megabit (Mb) (and thus 8 blocks = 1 megabyte [MB]), so 512 MB = 4096 blocks. Also, games released before August 27, 2007 are incorrectly listed on the Wii Shop Channel at approximately 72 blocks larger than their actual size.

According to the list, the largest VC game is The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time at approx. 286 blocks. This is a curious number, since the game was originally available on a 256 Mb cartridge. The extra space could be due to save data, but according to the above thread, save data is stored in the Wii's hidden memory area, and thus does not affect the visible block tally. More likely, this includes the size of the emulator running the game.

The largest WiiWare games are three of the episodes of Strong Bad's Cool Game For Attractive People, weighing in at 321 blocks each. It's unknown if the limit for VC games is the same as the limit for WiiWare games, but let's assume that they are.

Now, noting the cartridge and block sizes above for Ocarina of Time, let's look at another game that was also originally available on a 256 Mb cartridge: The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask. According to the list, this game only takes up 250 blocks, which makes more sense. Just because a game was shipped with a 256 Mb capacity doesn't mean that it used every bit of memory.

Now it's going to get interesting (and more confusing). Let's look at Neo Geo releases. Going by the megabit totals at www.neogeoforlife.com, the largest Neo Geo game available on the Virtual Console is Metal Slug 2*, which totals 362 Mb. However, according to the GameFAQs list, it only takes up 162 blocks. That's a highly questionable number, but if it's accurate, then there's some mad compression going on there! It's also worth noting that Metal Slug 1 is only 193 megs, but takes up 240 blocks.

As far as the Fatal Fury series is concerned, Fatal Fury 3 is scheduled for the Japanese VC next month, and it weighs in at 266 Mb, making it the largest game yet on the VC. The block tally remains to be seen, but if the info I've gathered is accurate, it should fit within the 321 blocks that WiIWare has reached.

Now, if severe compression is possible (as Metal Slug 2 might suggest), than it's theoretically possible for games over 321 Mb to make it to the VC, assuming that the emulator can also fit in the package.

Of course, this is my amateur analysis, so take it with a grain of salt.

* Iron Clad's actual size isn't listed at Neo Geo For Life since it originally shipped on CD. It's possible that it could be bigger, but I've heard reports that the VC release may actually be the unreleased MVS version due to differences in music quality. But I don't want to speculate about it, so I'm going to ignore this game altogether for now.

EDIT: Maybe this belongs in the General board?

[Fryguy64]

There is likely to be some compression - or at the very least, optimization. Without knowing squat all about programming, that size sounds awfully high, even for a Neo Geo game.

You have to wonder if the original just wasn't dumped onto cart right. And remember, the game has been ported several times, and may have already undergone some compression for the benefit of those games.

[Nester the Lark]

363 Mb is actually not bad for a Neo Geo game. Metal Slug 3 is listed at 708 Mb. King of Fighters 2003 is listed at 716 Mb.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the red book audio from TurboGrafx CD games was compressed into Ogg Vorbis format for the Virtual Console. That would save a lot of space. I don't know if something like that is possible for Neo Geo AES games, tho. And even then, compressing something down into less than half its original size seems pretty extreme.

[parrothead]

What if they release large external hard drives that you hook up behind the Wii for extra large storage? There are some that hold up to a couple of Terabytes (one Terabyte = 1000 gigabytes).

[Johans Nidorino]

Mar 27, 2010 11:25:20 GMT -5 parrothead said:

What if they release large external hard drives that you hook up behind the Wii for extra large storage? There are some that hold up to a couple of Terabytes (one Terabyte = 1000 gigabytes).

I don't think the point is the chance of running out of space, but what's the maximum size for a Virtual Console title in order to be playable on the Wii.

[Shrikeswind]

I have one thing to point out: We're WELL out of the days these games were released. It's entirely possible that the compression you mention in, say, Metal Slug 2, was actually an overhaul of the game so it worked exactly the same but without as much memory use. Think about it like this: If in Super Smash Bros. you fire the Ray Gun, then in Melee fire it again, if Nintendo figured out a way to have that gun shoot more efficiently without actually altering damage, knock-back, rate of fire, and other similar factors, in short, make it work better without making it shoot better, the Ray Gun is much more streamlined, so there's more memory for, say, Chikorita. Now, if Melee were simply a more streamlined port of SSB64, you'd get the same graphics and everything, but it'd take up alot less memory since things would have been optimized.

Now, with games like OoT, if anything changed, and they forgot to strip the originals before the port, things would get less efficient. Give you an example: If the original texture for Bongo Bongo's shadow form (the one that attacked Sheik) was never actually removed from the game, and the new texture was simply pasted on there, the memory storing the original texture would still be there, and so old shadow would add to the memory. And if new shadow is taking up more space, then there's going to be some add-ons.

And to point out, there IS an external you can use: An SD Card. You could theoretically load up an SD Card on a specific series or even a couple series, if memory allows, and plug it into your Wii whenever you wanna play. So if I feel like Zelda, I plug in the one I scribbled a Triforce on and go to town. If you need some Sonic in your life at the moment, look for the card you drew the Master Emerald on. Of course, this is only if Nintendo allows you to hold games on an SD Card. I'm not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't.

[Johans Nidorino]

Mar 27, 2010 20:51:28 GMT -5 Shrikeswind said:

And to point out, there IS an external you can use: An SD Card. You could theoretically load up an SD Card on a specific series or even a couple series, if memory allows, and plug it into your Wii whenever you wanna play. So if I feel like Zelda, I plug in the one I scribbled a Triforce on and go to town. If you need some Sonic in your life at the moment, look for the card you drew the Master Emerald on. Of course, this is only if Nintendo allows you to hold games on an SD Card. I'm not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't.

Yes, that's part of the update #4 of the Wii Menu, released 1 year ago.

[Nester the Lark]

Mar 27, 2010 20:51:28 GMT -5 Shrikeswind said:

I have one thing to point out: We're WELL out of the days these games were released. It's entirely possible that the compression you mention in, say, Metal Slug 2, was actually an overhaul of the game so it worked exactly the same but without as much memory use. Think about it like this: If in Super Smash Bros. you fire the Ray Gun, then in Melee fire it again, if Nintendo figured out a way to have that gun shoot more efficiently without actually altering damage, knock-back, rate of fire, and other similar factors, in short, make it work better without making it shoot better, the Ray Gun is much more streamlined, so there's more memory for, say, Chikorita. Now, if Melee were simply a more streamlined port of SSB64, you'd get the same graphics and everything, but it'd take up alot less memory since things would have been optimized.

Now, with games like OoT, if anything changed, and they forgot to strip the originals before the port, things would get less efficient. Give you an example: If the original texture for Bongo Bongo's shadow form (the one that attacked Sheik) was never actually removed from the game, and the new texture was simply pasted on there, the memory storing the original texture would still be there, and so old shadow would add to the memory. And if new shadow is taking up more space, then there's going to be some add-ons.

So, you're basically saying that the version of MS2 on the VC could be a different build of the game than the one cited as being 362 Mb at Neo Geo For Life. One that was more optimized.

Hmm. The Neo Geo games provided on the VC are emulations of the AES (home console) version, which is basically the same as the MVS (arcade) version. I suppose, however, it could be possible that there was optimization done for the AES release (those huge cartridges were really expensive to manufacture), but that assumes that the Mb count at NGFL is based only on the MVS size. Even then, we don't even know if there is a difference to begin with, so it's pure speculation.

I was kind of wondering, tho, if anyone had compared the VC release of Metal Slug 2 with the one included on Metal Slug Anthology. Perhaps there might be differences in sound quality, for instance, to suggest different levels of compression between formats. (The Anthology version is the MVS version.)

[nocturnal YL]

...Wii has 2176 blocks of memory available. Which isn't a lot, really.

The games do look compressed. If they aren't, shouldn't similar ROMs appear in similar sizes on VC as well, assuming a full download takes everything, bar the zeroes at the end of the ROM image?

[Spud]

Mar 26, 2010 15:41:29 GMT -5 Nester the Lark said:

According to the list, the largest VC game is The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time at approx. 286 blocks. This is a curious number, since the game was originally available on a 256 Mb cartridge. The extra space could be due to save data, but according to the above thread, save data is stored in the Wii's hidden memory area, and thus does not affect the visible block tally. More likely, this includes the size of the emulator running the game.

It seems silly that the emulators aren't in the hidden area as well. :/ If I recall OoTwii had a couple of different Textures that weren't in th N64 version. Perhaps the original textures still exist in the rom and only the pointers were added, or perhaps the new textures are a might larger than the originals.

[Nester the Lark]

With regard to whether the emulators are stored in main memory or hidden memory, each VC game includes its own unique emulator, and thus is part of the main game program. Save data, however, seems to be treated the same way, whether it's for VC, WiiWare, or a disc release (excepting GameCube games, of course), and is stored in the hidden memory area. (The "main" Wii channels are also stored there, while optional channels, like the Internet Channel and Nintendo Channel, are in the main data area.)

I've looked into the curious case of Metal Slug 2 just a bit more. Due to the huge difference in megabit size vs. block size, I suspected that one of the numbers had to have been a misprint. But it appears to be legit.

Comparing the megabit size of the other Neo Geo games on VC against their block sizes, the VC versions are all approximately 30 Mb (or blocks) larger than their original cartridge sizes (give or take about 10 blocks). (This also appears to be the case for N64 games.) I've also discovered that there is a small difference in block sizes between NA and PAL releases, which is apparently why NintendoLife doesn't list block sizes on their site.

The Mb size for Metal Slug 2 (362 Mb) actually comes from the game's original AES packaging, so I'm going to assume it's correct. The VC block size is 162 blocks in NA, and 169 blocks for PAL. So, somehow Metal Slug 2 managed to lose about 200 Mb on its trip to the VC!

If that kind of compression is possible for all Neo Geo games, then it opens the door for games that I would've considered off the table due to size restrictions.

On top of that, what kinds of possibilities could that open up for arcade games?

[Shrikeswind]

Apr 6, 2010 11:45:22 GMT -5 Spud said:

Mar 26, 2010 15:41:29 GMT -5 Nester the Lark said:

According to the list, the largest VC game is The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time at approx. 286 blocks. This is a curious number, since the game was originally available on a 256 Mb cartridge. The extra space could be due to save data, but according to the above thread, save data is stored in the Wii's hidden memory area, and thus does not affect the visible block tally. More likely, this includes the size of the emulator running the game.

It seems silly that the emulators aren't in the hidden area as well. :/ If I recall OoTwii had a couple of different Textures that weren't in th N64 version. Perhaps the original textures still exist in the rom and only the pointers were added, or perhaps the new textures are a might larger than the originals.

Actually, OoT Wii was OoT 3.0, the one that got released on the Cube, but with the button designs of the cartridge versions. This means you're playing the Cube version of OoT, but you see a green B button, not a red one.

[Nester the Lark]

I just realized that this article on MDK 2 for WiiWare basically confirms that there is a 40 MB size limit on downloadable games. 40 MB = 320 Mb/Blocks.

Thus, those episodes of Strong Bad that are actually 321 blocks go just over the limit, suggesting some slight flexibility.

The article also mentions that MDK 2's textures were originally uncompressed, and compression is being used for the WiiWare version.

[The Qu]

Will that affect the game (MDK2) quality in any way? I'm not very knowledgeable in topics like this.

[Nester the Lark]

^ It shouldn't, unless the textures are very heavily compressed, in which case they may come out a little blurry. Not that I'm an expert, but since the Wii can only output 480p (ie. not HD) anyway, I think Interplay has some flexibility.

I would hope it would look at least as good as the Dreamcast version.