|
|
Post by Shrikeswind on Jan 17, 2020 22:06:27 GMT -5
Maybe, but that’s not really answering anything about why Fire Emblem does get that treatment. Not counting the spinoffs, just from the main series, we’re talking about a character who represents 6.25% of the Fire Emblem franchise. With 18 main series games, Legend of Zelda is on par with Fire Emblem for...well, main series games (for the record, I’m counting the Oracles as one game because of the linked ending. I’m also not counting LoZ’s remakes, while I’m not certain if I’m counting Fire Emblem’s. I’ll update my numbers if I find out that I’m double-counting any Fire Emblems.) Any given character, and we’ll say Darunia here because I regret making him my example Zelda character, represents 5.5% of the franchise. So maybe a Sage or a Champion aren’t the best option, but what happens in that fraction of a percent difference that makes any given Fire Emblem character a more appropriate choice? And a step further: What about recurring archetypes like Impa, who figure into the plots of a solid 1/3 of the games, who appear in almost a full quarter? And what about Sheik, whose only appearance was Ocarina of Time? Why does she figure into Smash but, for a sillier example Groose doesn’t? I mean, maybe Fire Emblem does merit a significant chunk of the Smash roster for its rapid growth and consistent quality, but it’s still far and away over represented in terms of characters.
And we all know that stages aren’t worth the weight of a playable character for Smash representation or we’d be talking about how excited we are to see Garreg Mach Monastery with all the fascination we are giving Byleth. We aren’t, and Nintendo knows we aren’t, because the Smash community spent so long not playing on certain stages to the point we got Omega forms just so people would appreciate the effort the developers put into the stages. And this isn’t even touching people’s response to Assist Trophies, see literally anything about Waluigi in Smash.
And let’s ignore what I just said. Stages are to be treated with equal weight to characters. At 15, Legend of Zelda, a highly consistent franchise that makes almost 7x Fire Emblem’s profits (using the same source so I retain the same disclaimer), is weighted at 1.25x Fire Emblem’s value with 12 characters and stages total for Anime Blue and the Seven Marths. (I kid, I kid. It’s Boy Lucina and the Seven Marths.). That’s hardly appropriately weighted. I could keep going, keep tacking on items, Assist Trophies, music, but it’s not going to demonstrate anything that I haven’t said already. Fire Emblem’s representation in Smash Bros. is absurd for the actual value of the franchise.
|
|
|
|
Post by Leon on Jan 18, 2020 13:06:41 GMT -5
Sheik was a transformation for Zelda, and she was added almost 20 years ago.
I could understand if your complaint was about making the roster more gender balanced, or racially diverse. Smash does have among the worst ratio of all fighting games in both categories. This wave of DLC was been absolutely horrid in that regard, not even giving us a single standalone female fighter.
|
|
|
|
Post by Shrikeswind on Jan 18, 2020 15:22:47 GMT -5
While diversity is absolutely a needed factor not just in Smash but in AAA gaming in general, I don’t know how I’m wrong about Fire Emblem’s over-representation. I’ve presented facts regarding Fire Emblem’s relative value for Nintendo based on available data and established how it compares to other franchises, including many that have less, often far less, representation. If you could offer a counterpoint that actually addresses my concerns, if you could prove me to be factually wrong about Fire Emblem’s importance to Nintendo, I’d be willing to step back and say “Okay, maybe Byleth is fine and I’m just stuck in an era of gaming long past.” But as it stands, evidence supports my case and nothing you’ve said really demonstrates that Fire Emblem needs to be as heavily represented as it is. The numbers are pretty clear here; Fire Emblem is nowhere near as major of a franchise as it would need to warrant as many characters as it’s got - even if it does deserve to be that big! - and it’s difficult to see from a distance what reasoning justifies what it’s got.
|
|
|
|
Post by Evie ❤✿ on Jan 20, 2020 14:36:34 GMT -5
A similar situation in quantity I suppose is Pokémon, except that Pikachu, Pichu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo were from Melee, later Pokémon Trainer (with Charizard, Squirtle, Ivysaur), were introduced in Brawl (ah and Lucario too sorry). It feels, Fire Emblem is receiving the "too many swordsman" argument, as opposed to e.g. Pokémon "too many characters".
But Shrikeswind and Leon, both your arguments are valid (with words, it's possible to weave things that lead to confusion and philosophies are not black and white/are (more) subjective). There is for instance the fundamental argument that 'variety is good>Smash should have not just popular things for brevity' (and too, in that respect from a different angle, Cloud/Undertale/Cuphead are in (I seem to remember when Mr. Video/or Rayman (unsure) was a Trophy some people on this forum talked about it as it was different). In the variety respect, I'd personally love to see more villains (e.g. Andross from Star Fox would be interesting if size is not an issue like how Sakurai eventually decided to go for Ridley after prototyping it before) and like what Leon said different culture, LGBT, race characters would be great. On the other hand, the ultimate decision is Masahiro Sakurai and Nintendo's, and some people will value this (in Japan Fire Emblem seems popular like Pokémon internationally, maybe nocturnal_yl can spread light to that as he lives closer to the East than me).
|
|
|
|
Post by nocturnal YL on Jan 20, 2020 15:43:30 GMT -5
(in Japan Fire Emblem seems popular like Pokémon internationally, maybe nocturnal_yl can spread light to that as he lives closer to the East than me) I'm the wrong person to ask for when it comes to popularity. I'm not in Japan proper, and culture here is not the same as that of Japan's. We're much less interested in Nintendo in general, for example. I'd say, for Japan, Fire Emblem is popular among "core" gamers, but in general and against games aimed at a more general audience, it's naturally not as popular, nor does it really make sense to compare them. Regarding the fighter count, I'd just say that Super Smash Bros. is a game, not a sales chart. It's not supposed to reflect popularity through fighter count. There are other points (like Zelda not really being ignored if you look beyond fighters), but they are already repeated here. I generally disagree with Shrikeswind, but I believe I have already made my points known a long time ago back in Smash Wii U discussions, and I do not wish to start this debate again. As for diversity regarding race, culture, gender, sexual orientation, etc., I'd say that's something for the original games to answer, rather than Smash. I also have concern that if they go for this direction, they may end up with diversity for the sake of diversity. Joke solution: Ditch Smash altogether and replace it with a Kirby action game with only Kirby characters, and diversity stops being a problem. |
|
|
|
Post by Evie ❤✿ on Jan 20, 2020 18:19:06 GMT -5
(in Japan Fire Emblem seems popular like Pokémon internationally, maybe nocturnal_yl can spread light to that as he lives closer to the East than me) I'm the wrong person to ask for when it comes to popularity. I'm not in Japan proper, and culture here is not the same as that of Japan's. We're much less interested in Nintendo in general, for example. I'd say, for Japan, Fire Emblem is popular among "core" gamers, but in general and against games aimed at a more general audience, it's naturally not as popular, nor does it really make sense to compare them. Regarding the fighter count, I'd just say that Super Smash Bros. is a game, not a sales chart. It's not supposed to reflect popularity through fighter count. There are other points (like Zelda not really being ignored if you look beyond fighters), but they are already repeated here. I generally disagree with Shrikeswind, but I believe I have already made my points known a long time ago back in Smash Wii U discussions, and I do not wish to start this debate again. As for diversity regarding race, culture, gender, sexual orientation, etc., I'd say that's something for the original games to answer, rather than Smash. I also have concern that if they go for this direction, they may end up with diversity for the sake of diversity. Joke solution: Ditch Smash altogether and replace it with a Kirby action game with only Kirby characters, and diversity stops being a problem.
@joke Hmm (sometimes my sense of humour is like Lucina I can be too serious and not get the joke). Bless Sakurai though; Smash Bros. took off from a small scale, now there are an exponential amount of characters; and the Smash Bros. scenario/elements have blossomed now. In respects, that would be an escape - a fresh new concept. On hindsight there is the Kirby Fighter series like Team Clash (though I remember some of what you post about microtransactions).
|
|
|
|
Post by Evie ❤✿ on Jan 21, 2020 15:27:44 GMT -5
Interesting announcement from the Japanese Direct, Remakes of the Famicom Tantei (Detective) Club games for the Switch, developed by MAGES with cooperation from the original Nintendo staff, which I suppose includes Sakomato who appears in the reveal trailer. No info about a western release happening though. This comes about with some interesting timing as back in July someone actually asked at the Nintendo investors meeting about Famicom Detective Club seires and wondered with the current state of Nintendo would they make an adventure game like them again. www.siliconera.com/2019/07/01/nintendo-got-asked-two-cute-questions-in-the-latest-investors-meeting/
Pretty good direct, all in all. - Local multiplayer mode for LM3 looks fun. - Find it crazy that Toby Fox has met Sakurai and has now worked with Game Freak. - BK in Smash looks like a great character - Didn't even think Little Town Story would even come out so soon. - Deadly Premonition 2 is Switch exclusive - Jedi Knight on Switch! - SNES games on Switch and the SNES Switch controller (thought the controller would be happen but thought it would actually be able to attach to the rail). Anyone who own the NES ones is probably regretting wasting their money when this has more buttons and would also be compatible with NES games. - SMT:#FE didn't think it would warrant a Switch release, saleswise, though the game looks like it might be the censored western version which isn't going to help. - Hearing those opening music notes and seeing that giant waterfall again was a great opener for that XC:DE trailer, hopefully the game has some sort of character switching/co-op in battle and cut location content (like Giant's Shoulder) restored. It's incredible how far the XC series has come after all these years, going from nearly not getting a NA release, to Shulk being in Smash, the release of XCX and XC2/Torna, good to see more people will be able to a better version of XC or without having to own a Wii/Wii U or N3DS. |
|
|
|
Post by Nester the Lark on Feb 18, 2020 17:05:48 GMT -5
Glad for Animal Crossing fans, but still not the Direct I'm waiting for.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nester the Lark on Mar 16, 2020 8:17:37 GMT -5
So, the rumors of an Indie World this week, followed by a general Direct next week, are off to a good start.
|
|
|
|
Post by Da Robot on Mar 19, 2020 7:52:33 GMT -5
Some interesting looking indie games.
On the topic of a (normal) Direct I wonder if this "wait" for a new one could be because of Corona? Maybe Nintendo doesn't want to commit to any (unannounced) game releases for a set date and then get delayed because of development delays with staff not able to work.
In comparison we got the Smash DLC #5 and Animal Crossing direct whose development would have been essentially been completed over the past months. While the next Smash DLC has already been confirmed to have hit delays because of the virus.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nester the Lark on Mar 19, 2020 8:54:54 GMT -5
I wasn't sure how much I should read into it, but it has seemed conspicuous to me that Nintendo has, so far, waited nearly 1/4 into the year before announcing their overall plans for the year.
If they do have a general Direct next week (as is rumored), it's likely because they have an investor meeting the week after, so they've been putting it off until the very last minute.
Is it because of the coronavirus? I don't know. Japan has been hit pretty hard, but could Nintendo have been anticipating from as early as January that it would eventually affect their day-to-day operations?
|
|
|
|
Post by nocturnal YL on Mar 19, 2020 12:12:37 GMT -5
The end of March is the end of their financial year. No investor meeting until another month after it, when their financial results are ready for presentation.
Why do they have no Nintendo Direct this year so far is something only they would know. My bet is that they don't want to steer attention away from Animal Crossing, and it has nothing to do with the other console makers, not having games ready or current events. Just a guess, based on how heavy are they pushing Animal Crossing lately.
That said, I think quitea lot of people did foresee an eventual pandemic. The existence of the respiratory disease was known as early as December, and became common knowledge by the end of January. By then Hubei province was hit hard, and it was only a matter of time when the situation would turn into a global pandemic.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nester the Lark on Mar 26, 2020 9:04:49 GMT -5
A surprise "Mini" Direct. OK.
And apparently, it is the virus that's throwing things out of whack.
|
|
|
|
Post by nocturnal YL on Mar 26, 2020 9:14:13 GMT -5
Whoa, a 30-minute Nintendo Direct Mini? That's interesting. Hate to see another leaker getting it right, though.Thoughts: (Japanese version) Xenoblade looks low-poly. But are those the same models used in the older versions? They still look more advanced than Wii or New 3DS graphics. The Ring Fit update looks cool! Smash update: Ooh, finally! New Asobi Taisen game. That comes completely out of the blue. And it has the spirit of multiple Nintendo minigame collections too. By that I mean you can find games similar to those from Wii Play, Mario Party 9 and more. Famista and Pawapuro in the same presentation. Between this and using common payment card format in arcades, it seems that the rivalry between those two publishers have diminished a lot in recent years. Putting Asobi Taisen in my maaaaybe list. Nothing of my personal interest otherwise, but it's a pretty decent presentation overall. No word on those known TBA games (Zelda et al.), but I think this presentation is the right place for those. |
|
|
|
Post by Nester the Lark on Mar 26, 2020 9:41:53 GMT -5
Is it me, or did the narrator sound a little less enthusiastic that usual? That was a bit... depressing. Anyway...
I'll talk about Xenoblade in the other thread.
Wasn't expecting Panzer Dragoon: Remake to shadow drop today. Cool.
Burnout Paradise Remastered is coming to Switch, so there's some support from EA. ...Yay?
Trails of Cold Steel III is dated for June 30, with a demo available right now.
I'll definitely be checking out the demos for that and Bravely Default II.
Well, at least there's some news for the rest of the year now. |
|
