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Post by kirbychu on Nov 9, 2008 14:08:25 GMT -5
Finding the Special Stages in Sonic 3 would like to disagree with you. Death at 10 minutes says hi. Sonic R was not that bad. If it controlled like an ordinary 3D performer adventure, you wouldn't hate it nearly as much. No, I would. It at least had some direction as a racing game, if that was removed... all you have is big dull arenas. I don't WANT large explorable arenas in a Sonic game, I want a long stretch to dash through at high speeds. Exploring is about finding the quickest route, to remove that is to remove what separates Sonic from the likes of all the Mario clones already out there. He would still have his speed, but in an arena all that adds up to is Mario on fast forward. The big problem with the Somersault is that even when you jump out of it you're still moving slow. The jump physics in both SA1 and SA2 are atrocious. You sorta aimlessly hang in the air, and no matter how fast you're running when you jump, you always spin at the same speed. This wasn't so in the previous Sonic games (including Sonic R). Somebody doesn't know how to jump dash.  |
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BeamClaws
Balloon Fighter
Beam claws closes the gap with his excellent foot speed!
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Post by BeamClaws on Nov 9, 2008 15:18:54 GMT -5
Actually, the spin dash in SA1 was done perfectly, you still had your controll and you could also stop it and start running at the same speed. And jump dash is called homing attack I believe.
My skills with SA1 made me believe the controlls are near perfect, the physics are not.
But this Sonic unleashed seems to fix everything, even the things that aren't perfect.
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Post by Manspeed on Nov 9, 2008 16:19:17 GMT -5
Pretty much all of the stages in the second half of the game take almost 10 minutes to beat. This is why I wonder why the hell they even kept the time limit in at all.
Then go play a generic driving game.
Exploring is about looking around intuitively designed levels trying to find things you never saw before. Intuitive level design and a unique physics engine centered around rolling like a ball and building momentum is what seperated Sonic from the other plaformers, not just being able to run fast. Sounds to me like you have the character's selling point confused with the actual game mechanics.
Not if they put in ramps, loops and other obstacles that only Sonic can overcome. I'm not even saying that should just have big arenas. At least having multiple level exits or things like that would be nice enough. Just have bigger, better designed levels instead of just one-wat racetracks. Actual locations. Unleashed looks like it's doing a bit better in this respect, but there's still bottom-less pits and scripted speedfest areas all over.
That wouldn't even be necessary if they just got it right. As far as I can tell, they only added the jump dash in order to circumvent having to get Sonic's original physics right in 3D. The Spin Dash is supposed to serve the purpose of speeding up, not a new move.
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Post by kirbychu on Nov 9, 2008 18:54:09 GMT -5
Pretty much all of the stages in the second half of the game take almost 10 minutes to beat. This is why I wonder why the hell they even kept the time limit in at all. In... In Sonic 3? The only Sonic game where a stage has ever taken me more than five minutes is Heroes.  Then go play a generic driving game. You're actually helping to illustrate my point there. In a driving game you aren't jumping platforms, smashing enemies or fighting bosses. This is what makes Sonic unique. It's a speed-orientated platformer. Exploring is about looking around intuitively designed levels trying to find things you never saw before. Intuitive level design and a unique physics engine centered around rolling like a ball and building momentum is what seperated Sonic from the other plaformers, not just being able to run fast. Sounds to me like you have the character's selling point confused with the actual game mechanics. Uhh... what? "Hey kids! Play Sonic the Hedgehog! It's got mechanics!" Unfortunately, Sonic's creators disagree with you. For them it was always very much about running fast, not rolling around on the floor. And the marketing campaigns (as well as the character's name) show this. Not if they put in ramps, loops and other obstacles that only Sonic can overcome. I'm not even saying that should just have big arenas. At least having multiple level exits or things like that would be nice enough. Just have bigger, better designed levels instead of just one-wat racetracks. Actual locations. Unleashed looks like it's doing a bit better in this respect, but there's still bottom-less pits and scripted speedfest areas all over. Well, this I can agree with. Maybe not multiple exits, it would make the stages lose the sense of purpose somewhat, but many different routes to the exit, crossing over at various points, would be great. That wouldn't even be necessary if they just got it right. As far as I can tell, they only added the jump dash in order to circumvent having to get Sonic's original physics right in 3D. The Spin Dash is supposed to serve the purpose of speeding up, not a new move. Why not both? The Spin Dash gave a larger speed boost, but you had to stop moving to use it. The Jump Dash only gave a small boost (or none at all if you were already going fast), but could be used in motion. It has occurred to me at this point that the Spin Dash actually was in SA2, with rolling mechanics and everything. I just tested it. Which makes me wonder what the hell this whole conversation has been about. |
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Post by Manspeed on Nov 9, 2008 21:12:27 GMT -5
The regular Spin Attack, where you can just tap the button and roll. I was saying I like that better than the less smooth (in my mind) Somersault.
I was just just voicing my personal nitpicks. Those kinds of things aren't the real reasons why games like Heroes, Shadow and 2006 fail. They differ between everybody (except for the parroters who just repeat what other people say) and they all claim their reasons are the real reasons why.
The real reasons Heroes and 2006 failed was most likely because of shoddy programming, poor design choices and general rush jobs for release. Thematically they failed for separate reasons. Heroes had poor writing and plotting, while 2006 had really nicely animated cutscenes and an awesome soundtrack, but the story was terribly melodramatic and the writing was pretty laughable in some areas. Shadow on the other hand is something that doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why it failed.
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Post by Koopaul on Nov 9, 2008 22:06:19 GMT -5
I actually agree with Man-Frog here, about Sonic with wide-open levels. It only seems logical that some who can cover a lot of ground in seconds needs enormous lands to run free.
If you ever remember playing the original Sonic the Hedgehog, it wasn't all about speed. He wasn't anywhere near as fast as he is now, but it was still awesome! Now why is that? I remember I could stop and take my time at certain points. The alternate paths weren't alternate paths, they were instead a different way to beat the level.
Do I loop-de-loop? Or maybe I can hop on top of the loop and see what's up there. There was lots of secrets and exploration. I loved that! It wasn't Sonic's speed I loved.
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Post by kirbychu on Nov 10, 2008 6:27:03 GMT -5
Do I loop-de-loop? Or maybe I can hop on top of the loop and see what's up there. There was lots of secrets and exploration. I loved that! It wasn't Sonic's speed I loved. But, thing is, that's true of any platformer out there. Sonic may not have been as fast as he is now in the first game, but he was still the fastest platformer around at the time. Exploration is great, and there should be more of it. But what makes Sonic unique is the speed and flow of it's stages, and a series' uniqueness is important, especially now that most of the great ideas are already spoken for. I think what you guys are talking about is better suited to Adventure fields, maybe something along the lines of SADX's mission mode, but not an entire game. If you want an entire game like that, there are plenty that are already catering to it. Oh, and Man-Frog? I actually thought Sonic '06's story was great. Story and music were the only two areas the game shined in.  |
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Post by Manspeed on Nov 10, 2008 16:20:44 GMT -5
They aren't catering to our tastes well enough. Not that I demand anything from any developer but come on: SA1's adventure fields haven't ages well nor was SADX's mission mode even worth it, and 2006's town stages were huge, empty and completely pointless.
I actually had an idea that could solve both of our problems. See how in Unleashed, they separated the fast running stages and the slow combat/platformer stages and the explorable hub stages? I say they connect all of those together into one big game world. The speedy areas would act as highways around the world, and getting off at certain points would take you to the slower paced platforming stages, which are likewise connected to the various hub areas where you can talk to people and enter shops. With this new Hedgehog engine, I think a set up like this is very possible in a sequel. Let's hope for it.
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Post by kirbychu on Nov 10, 2008 17:02:15 GMT -5
They aren't catering to our tastes well enough. Not that I demand anything from any developer but come on: SA1's adventure fields haven't ages well nor was SADX's mission mode even worth it, and 2006's town stages were huge, empty and completely pointless. I didn't mean as they were, I just meant that your idea would work as an adventure field, with it's own tasks to complete. It would flesh out the Adventure Fields more without having to drop the Action Stage concept. |
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BeamClaws
Balloon Fighter
Beam claws closes the gap with his excellent foot speed!
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Post by BeamClaws on Nov 10, 2008 17:17:46 GMT -5
I actually thought Sonic '06's story was great. Story and music were the only two areas the game shined in. Were you sarcastic? The story was horrible! Everysingle bit of it, trying to make a game about a bunch of furries serious! Why do you need all this, this, this STUFF! That's also one reason I don't like shadow, they try to be SERIOUS. They can't! When you realize it's a bunch of talking animals, you start laughing everything off because it's just SILLY. That's one reason Sonic unleashed will be better because it looks past that "trying to be serious" mistake and instead makes a stupid storyline about being a werehog, because they found stupid CAN be good, and you can't deny the werehog is comical. Especially with stretchy arms. And the thing abou 2-d sonic gamesis that you could flow through the levels and the better you do that, the better your skill, the same thing with the 3-D games. Flow like liquid, that's what sonic games are to me. |
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Post by Manspeed on Nov 10, 2008 17:19:05 GMT -5
I think 2006 might've been better without the princess... and if Sonic were actually in-character. He hardly made any witty comments at all!
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Post by kirbychu on Nov 10, 2008 17:47:02 GMT -5
Were you sarcastic? The story was horrible! Everysingle bit of it, trying to make a game about a bunch of furries serious! Why do you need all this, this, this STUFF! That's also one reason I don't like shadow, they try to be SERIOUS. They can't! When you realize it's a bunch of talking animals, you start laughing everything off because it's just SILLY. That's funny. Because no Sonic game has ever come close to being as serious as a StarFox game. Besides, Sonic '06 had it's share of comedy. Sonic tapping a robot over a cliff with his toe, Knuckles' falls, Shadow and Silver's Chaos Control fight, Sonic's ending... A whole bunch of comic relief moments there, and I don't even remember the game that well. |
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Post by Manspeed on Nov 10, 2008 17:56:55 GMT -5
SA2 was pretty serious, but they managed to balance it out with a happy ending and quite a few humorous moments.
Shadow the Hedgehog tried to serious and edgy, but that fell flat on it's face, thus rendering it hard to take seriously.
Sonic 2006 tried the serious thing again, and although it was definitely easier to swallow than Shadow, it still wasn't exactly Sonic-y.
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BeamClaws
Balloon Fighter
Beam claws closes the gap with his excellent foot speed!
Posts: 934
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Post by BeamClaws on Nov 10, 2008 18:01:50 GMT -5
Well I say Starfox has the same problem, but I can't complain because I've only played the original and Starfox 64. And any sonic game that tries to be serious just has a stupid storyline.
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Post by TV Eye on Nov 10, 2008 18:13:04 GMT -5
Though, no 3D Sonic game can ever compare with Sonic Adventure 1. It had the best story and the best bad guy. Chaos, who never talked at all. Those were the days ;D
Also, I liked Big. No one else liked him, but I found his levels to be entertaining. Amy's were the worst, though.
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