Help with "History Behind Super Smash Bros. Melee"

[Fryguy64]

Some things are really hard to prove as they may be exceptionally subtle references, or possibly not references at all.

CCD's excellent Super Smash Bros. Melee videos cover every possibility, which is great - while NinDB covers obvious or proven cameos. It's just two ways of doing things.

So... Hi CCD! Great to see you around ;D

[Manspeed]

thequ said:

robert said:

First, there were ordinary Silver series Game + Watches, then there were Gold. Later on there were Widescreen, Multiscreen, and finally Tabletop and Panorama Game + Watches with full color displays. These make quite the collector's item, especially those old Silver series models.

So its the fact that Mr. Game & Watches' alts are red, green, etc. that is the reference? Doesn't that seem like its pushing it? I'm not trying to sound rude, either. Thanks, btw.

Don't look at me, Parrothead thought of it . I just happened to know what he was referring to. I think the idea wasn't entirely ruled out though,

[crappycapturedevic]

Everybody, thank you for replying and your hospitality!

Now then, I didn't initially post every character's alternative costumes because the list was a bit too long, but I think I'll do it anyway just to double check myself against everybody else here. I will also include the origin of the "standard" costumes in this video as well. Some of the "standard" costumes are kind of ambiguous. (I have to admit that I got a few of these from following links from the links people posted here, so thank you for that. I also haven't researched everything 100%, so a few of these may be just kind of "meh.") Anyway, here it goes, everything right off the top of my head, plus what's been posted...

Dr. Mario - normal - Dr. Mario

Mario - normal - Mario Bros. Arcade (though his overalls became more jean-colored in Super Mario World)
yellow - Wario
brown - Wrecking Crew
reversed colors - DK Arcade
green - a weak attempt at dressing like Luigi? (This one I'm not sure about including.)

Luigi - normal - Mario Bros. Arcade
white - Super Mario Bros. (NOT Fire Luigi. Fire Luigi has the same sprite as Fire Mario.)
pink - Wrecking Crew (Even though Luigi was kind of purple in that game... but the fact that Luigi is in pink of all colors makes be believe that this is referencing Wrecking Crew.)

Peach - normal - Super Mario World, but became more detailed in Super Mario 64
brown - Daisy
white - Dr. Mario - nurse Toadstool

Bowser - normal - Super Mario World, but became more detailed in Super Mario 64
Blue - All Night Nippon Super Mario Bros. art



Yoshi - normal - Super Mario World
red, blue, yellow - Super Mario World
pink - Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island

Donkey Kong - normal - Donkey Kong Country

Captain Falcon - normal - F-Zero artwork (or F-Zero X?)
black - Japanese F-Zero X commercial cosplayer
dark red - F-Zero X - Blood Falcon
white - F-Zero X - Jody Summer costume
green - F-Zero X - Pico costume (maybe? What do you think?)

Falco - normal - Star Fox 64

Fox - normal - Star Fox 64

Ness - normal - Mother 2
blue - Mother 2 - Ness's reflection in Giygas (I think this is pushing it, but I'll include it in the video anyway for the hell of it.)

(I'm surprised that "pajamas" Ness with bedhead wasn't included as a costume, but whatever.)

Ice Climber - normal - Ice Climber
The last two costumes let Nana lead. (Must make feminists happy....)

Kirby - normal - Kirby's Adventure
yellow - Kirby's Dream Course - Keeby, or Kirby Super Star - Beam Ability (I'll have to see which came first.)
blue - Kirby Super Star - Ice Ability
red - Kirby Super Star - Fire Ability
white - Kirby's Dream Land art (Though, if I remember correctly, the Ice Ability in Kirby's Adventure also turned him white, though I think it had a blue tint to it...)
green - Maybe a reference to how he looked on the original Game Boy, with its green display and all.

Samus - normal - Super Metroid - Varia Suit (Yes, I think it looks more like her in Melee than her starting Power Suit in Metroid.)
pink - Metroid - Varia Suit WITH MISSILES SELECTED (When Missiles are selected in Metroid, Samus's visor turns blue, regardless of the Suit she has. Her visor is blue in Melee with this costume.)
purple - Super Metroid - Gravity Suit

Zelda - normal - Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
red - Legend of Zelda
light blue - Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past

Link - normal - Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
red - Legend of Zelda - Red Ring (I'm just going to show this since the red costumes in the following Zelda games were taken from this.)
blue - Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time - Zora Tunic
light blue - Legend of Zelda - Blue Ring
dark grey - Zelda II: Adventure of Link - Dark Link (What do you think? Or is it too weak?)

Young Link - normal - Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
All of "adult" Link's alternative costumes also apply to him, but I'm not going to show the same thing twice.

Ganondorf - normal - Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time

Pikachu - normal - I imagine Pikachu existed in color in art sometime before Pokémon Stadium (Japan) came out. This is definitely one I'm going to have to do some research on. Or any knowing persons could just tell me. ;D
red hat - Shiny Pikachu & Satoshi's hat from the anime (--___--)

Pichu - normal - probably in artwork, or in Pokémon Stadium 3. (2 for everywhere else outside of Japan.)

Jigglypuff - normal - same thing as Pikachu

Mewtwo - normal - Probably Pokémon Stadium, I can't see a lot of artwork for Mewtwo before the first anime movie made him popular and "evil."
green - Shiny Mewtwo

Mr. Game & Watch - normal - design is generic, but seems closest to the falling Game & Watchs in Fire and Parachute.
red, green, blue - referencing the colored LCDs in the Tabletop and Panorama series

(I'm a physics major in college and I wasn't aware there were colored LCDs in the 1980's... as color LCD monitors and such are recent technology. I had always thought that the Game & Watch handhelds used Super Twisted Nematic Display to display the individual electrodes (or "frames") of movement. As that page says, I knew that color LCDs were developed in the 90's, but the Tabletop and Panorama series were made in the 1980's... Weird.)

Anyway, enough of that... >_>

Marth - normal - Fire Emblem 3
white - Fire Emblem Thracia 776 - Leaf

Roy - normal - Fire Emblem Fuuin no Tsurugi
(?) - GBA Link Room Battles (I've never done this because I don't have multiple Fire Emblem cartridges, so looking at this or acquiring the footage for this is going to be a problem.)
gold - Fire Emblem 4 - Neutral Fraction

Anyway, that's enough for now. Thanks for all of your help!

[Ike-Mike]

Mario's green costume is definately Mario Bros. Luigi.


As for Pokémon artwork: The original Pokémon artwork was replaced when Fire Red/Leaf Green came out and is now difficult to find. I suggest looking in Red/Blue's and Gold/Silver's manuals and, if you know where to get them, their Player's Guides.

And as for Kirby, Shigeru Miyamoto wanted Kirby to become yellow, while Sakurai preferred him to be pink. Nintendo of Japan ultimately made him pink while NoA were still confused and made him black and white for the boxart of Kirby's Dreamland.

Marth's design as we know it today has been established by the anime and, even more so, his trading card.


Getting footage of Link Arena battles isn't hard at all, seeing as there is a mode where you can fight against AI controlled teams. It's in every GBA Fire Emblem, including Fuuin no Tsurugi.
And to push this assumption even further, Roy having an alternate blue costume while he's blue anyway might be a reference to your units who don't wear blue clothes in the normal game wearing blue clothes in Link Arena's blue team.
The other costumes that I think are referencing the Link Arena are his red and green costumes, by the way.

[The Qu]

Yellow Kirby is a refrence to how Sakurai wanted him to look in the first game. In the end, Shigeru Miyamoto convinced him to make him pink.

[Fryguy64]

thequ said:

Yellow Kirby is a refrence to how Sakurai wanted him to look in the first game. In the end, Shigeru Miyamoto convinced him to make him pink.

No, wrong way round.

Anyway CCD - here are my notes to your bits and pieces.

Bowser
Bowser also appeared blue on the original artwork for Super Mario Bros. This image is actually an edit of another image without the All Night Nippon characters. I'll try and find it for you.

Yoshi
The light blue was also from Yoshi's Island.

Donkey Kong
All of Donkey Kong's alt. colours are in Donkey Kong 64's multiplayer battle mode.

Captain Falcon
I don't find the Jody Summer or Pico references particularly convincing, personally.

Kirby
The beam ability turned Kirby pale pink. The first time he was yellow was in Kirby's Dream Course (I checked already).
Also I suspect the black & white colour scheme is supposed to represent the Game Boy (you can also see this in the Game Boy stages in Kirby's Adventure / Nightmare in Dream Land). In Brawl, Dedede and Pokemon Trainer also have black & white colour schemes.

Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo
Pikachu, along with all 151 Pokemon, was drawn by Ken Sugimori in colour for the release of the original Pokemon games. The anime and much more also preceded Stadium JP. I have the original artwork at home for them.

Marth (addressed to Ike-Mike)
Marth's design was completely changed for Monshou no Nazo on the SNES, and that's the design that is used on all that artwork. Game influenced cards and anime, not the other way around.

Roy
Huh... I think there's a GBA emulator that allows linkups. I might be able to get a screenshot for you.

[TV Eye]

crappycapturedevic said:

Link - normal - Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
red - Legend of Zelda - Red Ring (I'm just going to show this since the red costumes in the following Zelda games were taken from this.)
blue - Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time - Zora Tunic
light blue - Legend of Zelda - Blue Ring
dark grey - Zelda II: Adventure of Link - Dark Link (What do you think? Or is it too weak?)

Hmm...I do believe Sakurai based the red suit on Link's Goron Tunic...maybe your right about the Red Ring, but I believe since the Link in Melee is based on the one from OoT, then so are his suits, with the light blue as an exception...

[Ike-Mike]

admin said:

Marth (addressed to Ike-Mike)
Marth's design was completely changed for Monshou no Nazo on the SNES, and that's the design that is used on all that artwork. Game influenced cards and anime, not the other way around.

Then why is he running around without pants in the actual game?

[The Qu]

Thanks for the correction Fry. I didn't have time this morning to check who wanted Kirby what colour, and planned to edit it in school this morning but this page was blocked. Not even the topic, just page 2!
EDIT: Oh, I see now. I didn't see the post above mine. My post wasn't supposed to sound like a correction.
Kirby's black and white costume is based not just on his Game Boy colours, but also early art of him. His All Star trophy replicates the cover to Kirby's Dream Land.
I had never heard about DK's alts. I'll have to look into that one.
CCD, Ness' Giygas colors aren't true. On my topic on Smashboards someone helped debunk it. the reflection is brain colored.

I know you probably know this, but Mario's brown overalls are Foreman Spike from Wrecking Crew, not Mario's colors.

[MasterZ]

I think Fox's orange costume MIGHT be based on the boxart for the SNES StarFox/StarWing, but that might be pushing it.

[Fryguy64]

technicolor said:

I think Fox's orange costume MIGHT be based on the boxart for the SNES StarFox/StarWing, but that might be pushing it.

Hmm... I think that may be pushing it a little.

[Johans Nidorino]

Did Nurse Toadstool ever wear a white dress in the games or some artwork? I didn't get to see the endings or any animation showing her in the original games, but from what I understood, the white coloring was only a Melee thing, to make her combine with default Dr. Mario.

BTW, I love that relation of Captain Falcon's colors with palettes of other characters from the F-Zero series.

Pikachu's blue hat looks like something Pikachu could easily wear in other things than Super Smash Bros., but I can't find or remember any.

[The Qu]

Nurse Toadstool was pink in official art for Dr. Mario. Go look her up on the Mariowiki.com for the art.
Does anyone else think that Captain Falcon's lighter blue costume looks more like him in the games? His default looks darker than he does in the F-Zero games to me.

[crappycapturedevic]

Thank you again for the replies everybody!

Now then...

Now that I see that picture of Mario Bros. Luigi, I'll also have to agree that that's Mario's alternative green costume.

As far as the Pokémon artwork goes... if you have that artwork within your grasp, Fryguy, can you digitize it? I would REALLY appreciate it!

Also, what artwork are you talking about for Bowser in Super Mario Bros.? I have the original manual scanned, but it only has a blown-up black and white sprite of Bowser in it.

(I know that with this video, artwork opens up a whole new rabbit hole to travel down.)

For Kirby's yellow costume, you can see the Beam Ability in this video I recently posted, starting at 0:44.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCIyuzr7hss

I still need to check out Keeby in Kirby's Dream Course though and get some video of it. Also, I was always under the impression that Shigeru Miyamoto wanted Kirby to be white. (Not arguing with you, just saying.)

There seems to be a bit of disagreement with Marth's normal design. I'll let you guys work it out, I don't want in the middle of it.

For Roy's costumes, I downloaded a battery save file for Fuuin no Tsurugi and accessed the Link Arena and practiced it. I did indeed see Roy's red and green costumes and got footage of it also.

"And to push this assumption even further, Roy having an alternate blue costume while he's blue anyway might be a reference to your units who don't wear blue clothes in the normal game wearing blue clothes in Link Arena's blue team."

I know what you mean by this, but that seems like it's REALLY pushing it. Not that I don't think it's an interesting theory though. I'll have to think about it.

Also, I just took it verbatim that Roy's gold costume might come from the Neutral Fractions in Fire Emblem 4, though honestly, I don't know what that is. (I've played the localized Fire Emblems, but could never get too far in the Japanese ones.) Could somebody please explain what the Neutral Fractions are? Knowing this will make it easier for me to acquire the video.

For Link, I can see where one would say that his red costume is based off of the Goron Tunic, but the idea for the red costume originated in Legend of Zelda, not to mention he gains an Ocarina of Time-style light-blue tunic, yet the color is based on the Blue Ring from Legend of Zelda. I'll have to think about this one.

For Ness's blue costume, you're probably right, though I can see a bit of blue in the "brain" color.

For Donkey Kong, thanks for pointing that out! I missed that entirely. Here's some screenshots I took:

img137.imageshack.us/img137/8500/donkeykong1in3.jpg
img112.imageshack.us/img112/3095/snapshot1qm9.jpg
img137.imageshack.us/img137/2807/donkeykong2kc0.jpg
img137.imageshack.us/img137/1928/snapshot2bq5.jpg
img215.imageshack.us/img215/6137/snapshot0xs8.jpg

The last two look kind of similar. Also, this costume wasn't used:

img112.imageshack.us/img112/2307/donkeykong3hy3.jpg

For Fox, I'm glad that the boxart was pointed out. It does look similar to his orange costume:

img219.imageshack.us/img219/756/orangefoxcj0.jpg

...Though the wrong piece of clothing is colored. This is another tough one I'm going to have to think about, though honestly, now that I've been shown this, the chances of me including it are really good.

Anyway, thanks a lot guys! Keep it coming!

Edit: Would have just embedded the images into my post, but it doesn't seem to be displaying them...

Edit #2: Hey, Johans and Qu! You guys posted while I was writing this post out. So....then you think that Peach's white costume was made just for Melee?

[Fryguy64]

HOTLINKING TIME!! ;D

Well, here's the original artwork for the Japanese box of Super Mario Bros.


I'll repost the original Pokemon artwork tonight. I didn't realise it had become so difficult to find the original artwork since all the FireRed/LeafGreen redesigns came about.

Pichu first appeared in Gold/Silver on Game Boy Color, so his sprite is also in colour.