The Secret Horrors of Wii U Development

[Nester the Lark]

Here's an interesting article from Eurogamer written by an anonymous developer about his/her experience of developing a third-party title for the Wii U:

The Secret Developers: Wii U - the inside story

In short, Nintendo's insistence of existing in a vacuum meant that they were totally unprepared for the challenges of creating an HD console that other developers had already come to terms with several years ago. That, combined with the difficulty of developing/porting games for the console, Nintendo treating third-parties like second-class citizens, and poor sales that practically guarantee a loss of money, mean that developers are running away from the Wii U faster than Lady Gaga from the fashion police.

The Wii U is an unusual instance of Nintendo being the first to release a next-gen console rather than the last. Sounds like they should've held it back for at least a year to let it cook a while longer.

[nocturnal YL]

I'd like to hear what a Japanese developer would say, actually. The likes of SEGA, CAPCOM, NAMCO BANDAI, ARIKA and perhaps Koei Tecmo don't seem to have any problem with the system, and it's mostly the western developers who find the hardware difference difficult to work with. And more interestngly, a lot of these problems come from Nintendo's own slowness, rather than inherent issues like translation and the nature of porting games across architectures. Shouldn't these affect Japanese developers as well?

And I'm interested in how'd they work with the GameCube as well. That one wasn't any weaker than its parallels, so what do third party developers feel about it?

I'm guessing this particular writer is from a Ubisoft studio. Who else is publicly supporting Nintendo but has no plans to make Wii U games?

[Nester the Lark]

Well, according to the article, the support was slow because of translation issues and the time difference, although a whole week for one response still seems a little excessive. Japanese companies wouldn't have either of those problems, so support would be much faster.

I don't think the author is from Ubisoft. They've published several Wii U games and have a Wii U version of Watch Dogs in development.

[Nester the Lark]

So, here are a couple of rebuttals to the above article, one from Jools Watsham of Renegade Kid (Mutant Mudds Deluxe) and the other from Christopher F. Arnold of Nami Tentou Mushi (Ping 1.5+). Both say that Wii U development is not any harder than the other platforms. Arnold called the Eurogamer article "clickbait" and said that third-parties are the ones who need to step up.  Of course, these are both indie developers, so how hard are they really pushing the hardware?

[nocturnal YL]

Interesting. I'm not a game programmer (looking into that now, though), but from what I know about general-purpose programming, it really doesn't matter what platform are you targeting at, unless you're making intensive games that needs extensive optimization and can't use one of those existing development suites that allows you to publish to all platforms.

Naturally, developers of large games that work on porting will face more problems. They're trying to make the same thing on different platforms, which isn't possible without sacrificing something and putting in work that's equivalent to making an extra game. Developers of smaller games, on the other hand, can simply "translate" the code - or better, if you're using a game development suite like Unity, you're only a few clicks away from targeting something completely different.

[TV Eye]

Jan 12, 2014 18:42:28 GMT -5 Nester the Lark said:

So, here are a couple of rebuttals to the above article, one from Jools Watsham of Renegade Kid (Mutant Mudds Deluxe) and the other from Christopher F. Arnold of Nami Tentou Mushi (Ping 1.5+). Both say that Wii U development is not any harder than the other platforms. Arnold called the Eurogamer article "clickbait" and said that third-parties are the ones who need to step up.  Of course, these are both indie developers, so how hard are they really pushing the hardware?

Not very. Doesn't Nintendo have a strict set of rules for games to appear on their shop? A game like VVVVVV can get on but an HD Gamecube game will only be released on disc. This is totally different from Sony who puts everything on the store and relies on customer input on whether it should be removed (as with the disaster that was Promethus). But that's all beside the point.

I believe Nintendo is way too up their ass. Mario and Zelda are fine, but it's all we see. I know everyone keeps asking Nintendo to make a new IP, but that's retarded. They don't need a new IP, they need a collaboration. More third party support would be ideal, but third parties like to release their games on every system, making the whole idea worthless.

In a perfect world, Nintendo wouldn't of stabbed Sony in the back 15 years ago. The Japanese market should be on one system made my Nintendo AND Sony. Then Microsoft could have their "hardcore" games and everyone would be happy.

EDIT: It really makes sense the more I think about it. Nintendo needs third parties, Sony needs first parties...it's like two puzzle pieces that don't realize they match.

Oh, and about the article. I feel like this attachment is worth sharing.

Attachments:

[Nester the Lark]

Heh. After all the cheap shots at E3 last year, it's funny to see the console makers suddenly being all Kumbaya with each other.

I'm not sure about everything you're getting at, Teev, but I think you're partially right about third-parties preferring multi-platform releases. If Nintendo wants an exclusive (let alone even getting a multiplat) release, they have to produce it themselves, as with Bayonetta 2.

However, they are collaborating with outside developers and creating new IP. Recent examples include The Wonderful 101 (Platinum Games), Pandora's Tower (Ganbarion) and The Last Story (Mistwalker). Then of course there's the lending out of their own IPs, as with Hyrule Warriors (Tecmo Koei) and Shin Megami Tensei X Fire Emblem (Atlus).

Of course, either way, Nintendo is doing the heavy lifting.

As for the eShop, from what I've heard, it's very indie-friendly, much more so than the Wii was. I was actually really surprised to learn that not only was Dreamfall Chapters coming to the Wii U, but that it was Nintendo who approached Red Thread Games for a port. (As of now, no PS3/4 or X360/One versions have been announced.)

And when you refer to HD GameCube games, I assume you mean Wind Waker HD? It is available on the eShop (many retail releases are), and in fact, it was released digitally two weeks before the retail disc version (in North America).

[Da Robot]

Gonna link this article about the Nintendo development of the Gamecube, because some of the stuff it it (like Nintendo not liking companies make multiplatform games) still seems to apply today.


From what I'm starting to understand of Nintendo is that they are a very stubbon japanese company that applies a "this is a product that good for the japanese market/household" and than tries to sell it worldwide, instead of "this is a product that is designed for a worldwide market/household."

The design of the Wii U seems pretty perfect for Japanese households (quiet, and Off TV play for asmall house with most likely one tv) while from the sounds of it around the rest of the world, console noise ain't much of an issue and Off TV play doesn't seem like much of good feature when you have multiple TVs.

Even the Streetpass feature of 3DS is more suited for Japan than the west.

And than of course the "we will learn from our mistakes" never seems to happen like the how the name confusion of the 3DS was gonna help them prevent a similar problem with the Wii U . . .

(or another example "this time we will have 3rd partys on our side this time working on games for our hardware!")


The biggest game design irony of the Wii U is this:

Either your Wii U game . . .

- Makes extensive use of Gamepad during gameplay and can't use Off TV play. (Eg Zombie U)
- Uses the Gamepad as just a optional map/clone of the TV screen and can use Off TV play (most Wii U games).


It's always seem a bit messed up to me (outside of games featuring asymetrical multiplayer like Nintendo Land) that Nintendo still hasn't really made a game that seems to justify the existance of Gamepad.


In terms of getting more exclusives/new IP, what so bizarre is that they keep going to Japanese developers and yet hardly any new western ones.

It's amazing that during the GCN generation, Nintendo internally wanted to make a Mario soccer game, but decided to look around and see if there was any western developers that made good "arcady" sports games. They found one and look how that relationship has blossmed over the year espically with the recent news of their new partnership this week.

After that the only other studio is Monster Games (Excitetruck, Pliotwings Resort, DKCR 3D and assitance on DKC:TF)


To me it seems like Nintendo wants more 3rd parties to come pitch games to them for them to fund/publish and yet no of them seem to relise it.

And yet even then, when ever Nintendo does get a new game not internally developed by them they seem put hardly any effort into advertising (or apparantly just no advertising what so ever) it with the same push as their bigger internally developed franchises.


In terms of indie development Nintendo really seems to have changed tune for the better, having NoA's Dan Adelman around who seem to be very happy to contact indie dev's (espically ones on Kickstarter like Dreamfall) and give them Wii U dev kits.

[Boo Destroyer]

If the Wii U turns out to be their last system, I can't say I'd be surprised at all.

[TV Eye]

Jan 12, 2014 22:59:01 GMT -5 Nester the Lark said:

However, they are collaborating with outside developers and creating new IP. Recent examples include The Wonderful 101 (Platinum Games), Pandora's Tower (Ganbarion) and The Last Story (Mistwalker). Then of course there's the lending out of their own IPs, as with Hyrule Warriors (Tecmo Koei) and Shin Megami Tensei X Fire Emblem (Atlus).

I know, it was the same with Capcom and the Zelda games on GBA. That was great. Nintendo needs to do more like that. I also think Team Ninja did a good job with Other M but...

Of course, either way, Nintendo is doing the heavy lifting.

And that's why Other M wasn't as popular as it should've been. The gameplay worked well, but Sakamoto thought of himself as the father of Samus and ended up ruining the image we all had of her.

As for the eShop, from what I've heard, it's very indie-friendly, much more so than the Wii was. I was actually really surprised to learn that not only was Dreamfall Chapters coming to the Wii U, but that it was Nintendo who approached Red Thread Games for a port. (As of now, no PS3/4 or X360/One versions have been announced.)

And when you refer to HD GameCube games, I assume you mean Wind Waker HD? It is available on the eShop (many retail releases are), and in fact, it was released digitally two weeks before the retail disc version (in North America).

Great news! I don't have a Wii U but I never hear of anyone mention a lot about the shop. When I mentioned HD remakes though being ported to the shop, I meant more like them NOT being released on disc. Nintendo isn't very good at pricing or discounting. I see that Wind Waker HD is around $50 new? Sony knows that the games are old, so you'll see the Jak and Daxter HD Collection (three full games) released together on disc for $40 new. On the PSN each game runs around $10 to $20.

Jan 13, 2014 18:01:08 GMT -5 Da Robot said:

In terms of getting more exclusives/new IP, what so bizarre is that they keep going to Japanese developers and yet hardly any new western ones.

And Retro Studios has also turned things around for the better. They keep releasing hit after hit. You'd think after all the success Rare had found in the 90's that Nintendo would be begging Western developers for help.

[nocturnal YL]

Been thinking about this whole thing a bit. What I have so far:

Nintendo and Sony

If they somehow jointly make consoles, I'll be among the first to buy. Having access to a massive library of Japanese ARPGs AND Nintendo titles? Yes! I'd say it's less of "if they didn't backstab Sony" and more of "if they join force now", though. Should Nintendo have never betrayed Sony, we'll have, surprise, two Japanese consoles. Sega probably would find some other way to fight back, maybe involving some other electronic giant.

Still, if Nintendo really goes third-party, I'll welcome Sony consoles. I'm never a fan of them (found them to be a tad arrogant), but from a technical standpoint, they are superior. Completely manageable save data, no region block, it's all the stuff I want to see.

On Wii U

I'm been thinking about Nintendo's past. A lot of their success had to do with control scheme. The NES had the D-pad, the SNES had all basic elements for a controller, there was the 3D stick for N64, and the GameCube, while not a huge success, had a comfortable controller to the point that Wii U's non-support of it irritated some. Of course, the Wii had motion control and the DS had touch screen.

Now look at Wii U. What does it offer? Two screen? Touch control? Those fall into DS region. Asynchronous gameplay? Any portable system can do that. And more importantly, Nintendo themselves didn't make good use of those. Most established games look like they can easily be made for a single screen. The only Nintend-published exceptions I can think of are Nintendo Land and Game & Wario.

But wait, didn't the 3DS have the same problem? Extra display capabilities that isn't a must-have... Well, yes. And remember how the 3DS fared the first few years? It's not until Mario Kart 7, Super Mario 3D Land and Monster Hunter 3 were released that the system was somehow saved. In the end, it's software (especially Mario Kart; 3D Mario does little in comparison) that helps. But Wii U has to suffer more, thanks to the longer development time for Wii U games. And here's hoping Mario Kart 8 will help.

On other note, I don't like the PRO Controller (along with Wii's Classic Controller) either. It has almost the same features (down to the layout) their competition in Sony can offer.

I guess it's somewhat understandable that they advertise internally developed games more, especially since they're now concentrated in a few series that are guaranteed to be at least mildly successful. This doesn't sound especially great for their partners, though.

[Nester the Lark]

Jan 13, 2014 21:47:38 GMT -5 TV Eye said:

Great news! I don't have a Wii U but I never hear of anyone mention a lot about the shop. When I mentioned HD remakes though being ported to the shop, I meant more like them NOT being released on disc. Nintendo isn't very good at pricing or discounting. I see that Wind Waker HD is around $50 new? Sony knows that the games are old, so you'll see the Jak and Daxter HD Collection (three full games) released together on disc for $40 new. On the PSN each game runs around $10 to $20.

Gamers seem to think that just because something is old, it has no value, but that's not true. I would argue that Nintendo's legacy is far more valuable than Sony's, so it's understandable that Nintendo tries harder to preserve that value. Also take into account that Wind Waker HD was a true HD port that Nintendo spent a lot of time and care developing, and not a cheap and lazy (and buggy) up-res like other publishers tend to do for a quick buck. That's what makes Nintendo Nintendo.

Jan 13, 2014 22:17:34 GMT -5 nocturnal YL said:

Now look at Wii U. What does it offer? Two screen? Touch control? Those fall into DS region. Asynchronous gameplay? Any portable system can do that. And more importantly, Nintendo themselves didn't make good use of those. Most established games look like they can easily be made for a single screen. The only Nintend-published exceptions I can think of are Nintendo Land and Game & Wario.

Nintendo has had a funny dual-screen fetish ever since the GameCube with its GBA connectivity. I'd like to discuss this, but I think it belongs in its own thread.

About Nintendo merging with Sony (as well as Sega still making consoles), it's all purely hypothetical, and not really relevant.

As for Nintendo going third-party: no, it would not be a good idea. Remember what happened to Sega. At the time, it was thought that the limited install base of the Dreamcast was holding back sales of their games, and that going third-party would help them reach much wider audiences. It was thought that Sega, with its rich catalog of beloved franchises, had the potential to be one of the most powerful publishers in the world. But that didn't happen. A number of their games sold even worse on competing platforms than they did on the Dreamcast.

Yeah, Mario may outsell Call of Duty on the Wii U, but if you think the same would be the case on a PlayStation or Xbox, I strongly disagree.  Nintendo needs hardware because it unifies its audience and fanbase.

EDIT: Oh, and on the original topic, I forgot to add another rebuttal. Platinum's Hideki Kamiya was asked if it was any more or less difficult to develop for Wii U than 360/PS3, and he said he thought they were the same.

[kirbychu]

Jan 13, 2014 21:47:38 GMT -5 TV Eye said:

Great news! I don't have a Wii U but I never hear of anyone mention a lot about the shop. When I mentioned HD remakes though being ported to the shop, I meant more like them NOT being released on disc. Nintendo isn't very good at pricing or discounting. I see that Wind Waker HD is around $50 new? Sony knows that the games are old, so you'll see the Jak and Daxter HD Collection (three full games) released together on disc for $40 new. On the PSN each game runs around $10 to $20.

Wind Waker HD isn't really the same thing as Sony's HD Collections, though. WW HD is a remake, with new textures, lighting effects, music, items, gameplay tweaks, controls and online support. Sony's HD Collections, at least the ones I have, are all just straight ports of the originals with only the screen resolution changed.

[TV Eye]

Jan 14, 2014 4:08:27 GMT -5 kirbychu said:

Jan 13, 2014 21:47:38 GMT -5 TV Eye said:

Great news! I don't have a Wii U but I never hear of anyone mention a lot about the shop. When I mentioned HD remakes though being ported to the shop, I meant more like them NOT being released on disc. Nintendo isn't very good at pricing or discounting. I see that Wind Waker HD is around $50 new? Sony knows that the games are old, so you'll see the Jak and Daxter HD Collection (three full games) released together on disc for $40 new. On the PSN each game runs around $10 to $20.

Wind Waker HD isn't really the same thing as Sony's HD Collections, though. WW HD is a remake, with new textures, lighting effects, music, items, gameplay tweaks, controls and online support. Sony's HD Collections, at least the ones I have, are all just straight ports of the originals with only the screen resolution changed.

Yeah, I've been reading more about it. I saw that they changed a lot even to the gameplay like removing a bunch of Tingle sections. My mistake.

[Da Robot]

Jan 13, 2014 21:47:38 GMT -5 TV Eye said:

Jan 13, 2014 18:01:08 GMT -5 Da Robot said:

In terms of getting more exclusives/new IP, what so bizarre is that they keep going to Japanese developers and yet hardly any new western ones.

And Retro Studios has also turned things around for the better. They keep releasing hit after hit. You'd think after all the success Rare had found in the 90's that Nintendo would be begging Western developers for help.

Just had a think about this, but Retro aint Rare. They haven't really replaced them.

Retro may have made some critically acclimed games but the number/output of games compared to Rare (even in one generation) is pretty incrdible . . .

Rare made 11 N64 games. Most of them original! (with only 1 direct sequel, Banjo Tooie, and 1 engine reusing spiritual succssor, Perfect Dark using Goldeneye engine) . . . And then they were still making games on the Game Boy/Color! (Another six games!)


While Retro only made 2 during the GCN (MP1 and 2)

And than 2 (2.5?) on the Wii (MP3 and DKCR) and than ported MP1/2 to Wii

I'll admit that Retro had lots of cancelled project before MP1 was in development (Raven Blade!) And possibly other cancancelled project (rumored Shiek console spinoff game for the Wii? And I think even a possible DS game was pitched by them if some ex-Retro employee resume is correct) but at the end of the day I think part of the reason Rare was liked so much was they managed to many few holes during the release schudle of the hardware they worked on.


Also thank you to those out there that read these massive posts of mine, they take a while to write.