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Post by Nester the Lark on Mar 1, 2020 11:51:15 GMT -5
With debate about what characters "belong" in Smash, or deserve to be in Smash, I thought this might make a fun thought exercise. (I feel that there may have been a discussion here like this before, but I couldn't find it. Correct me if I'm wrong.) When the original Super Smash Bros was released on Nintendo 64 in 1999, it included 12 characters across 10 franchises (considering Yoshi and Donkey Kong as their own franchises rather than lumping them in with Super Mario). It represented all of Nintendo's major, relevant franchises at the time (with Pokemon being the newest). In the two decades since then, Nintendo has created new major franchises, while some older franchises have faded into the background, and other older franchises have gained popularity that they didn't have at the time. So, I was thinking, if Smash Bros were created/rebooted today with a modest 12-character roster, and with its original vision of being a crossover of Nintendo's prominent franchises, which ones would be represented now? (So, no third-party guests, and no obscure "fringe" Nintendo characters.) For simplicity, let's just ignore any time paradoxes of franchises that have gained popularity because of Smash, and just assume they would be popular anyway. Or just think of this as a modest reboot. For reference, here's the roster of the original Super Smash Bros: Mario Luigi Yoshi Donkey Kong Link Pikachu Jigglypuff Samus Aran Fox McCloud Kirby Captain Falcon Ness My thoughts: I think most of it would stay the same. Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon are obviously still quite big. Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Metroid and Kirby are all still relevant (although Metroid is not as big as it used to be). Star Fox is arguable, with Star Fox 2 seeing an official release, but Zero and Guard being critical and commercial failures. F-Zero and EarthBound, while beloved by fans, are all but deactivated. So, if we eliminate those last two, as well as the "double" representation of Luigi and Jigglypuff, that gives me four slots to replace with new franchises. (And possibly swap out Star Fox for another franchise.) My choices to fill those slots would start with Fire Emblem and Animal Crossing. Whatever Smash fans may think of them, they're both extremely prominent now. I feel like Marth would still be the poster boy for Fire Emblem, whereas I think Animal Crossing should be represented by Isabelle because I prefer to see actual characters be represented rather than generic avatars. After that, I would include Splatoon as the "new" franchise. In lieu of a generic Inkling, I would prefer including Callie, Marie, Pearl and Marina as model swaps (just like how Bowser Jr. and the Koopa Kids work). Finally, this might be a personal bias, but I would include Shulk from Xenoblade. While it might still be more of a third-tier franchise, I do feel that it has been steadily gaining momentum over the years, and its future is looking fairly secure as of now. That leaves one last thought: do I replace Fox McCloud with Captain Olimar? I feel that both Star Fox and Pikmin are about equally relevant (or irrelevant) right now, and both series have only had sporadic activity. On one hand, Pikmin is newer, but on the other hand, Star Fox has the longer legacy. I personally prefer Star Fox, so I think I'll just leave it in. So, that means my roster for "Super Smash Bros 2020" looks like this: Mario Link Pikachu Marth
Isabelle
Callie/Marie/Pearl/MarinaKirby Donkey Kong Yoshi ShulkSamus Aran Fox McCloud Yeah, so obviously, this is just a silly "for fun" discussion. If you guys have any thoughts or ideas, I'd like to hear them. (Remember, only 12 character slots, and no third-parties.) |
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Post by nocturnal YL on Mar 1, 2020 13:16:36 GMT -5
First thing I'd do is to remove Yoshi. He's a Mario character who adventures in Mario's world fighting Bowser's minions. Even other Mario spinoffs like the RPGs and Luigi's Mansion would be less "Mario" than Yoshi.
And after that, it's just a matter of picking 12 relevant fighters. I don't know if we're also keeping 9 stages, but let's assume we are and there will be 3 stage-less fighters.
I'll make them based on Nintendo Switch rather than Nintendo as a whole. This is something that Smash 64 didn't do, but "Nintendo" is too big a scope to make a 12-game showcase of.
My pick would be:
Mario, Link, [Pokémon fighter], Kirby, [Animal Crossing fighter], [Splatoon fighter], Samus, [Xenoblade fighter], [Fire Emblem fighter], [Extra fighter 1], [Extra fighter 2], [Extra fighter 3]
Elaboration:
Mario: Based on Super Mario Odyssey. Attacks with acrobatic moves and throws Cappy around. Given that this is a new game, stages are all redesigned with capturable elements. The stage is New Donk City, not unlike Smash Ultimate.
Link: Based on Breath of the Wild. Attacks with bombs and arrows, and if this game has a finisher move, it would be to freeze time and rack up massive launch distance, pretty much guaranteeing a KO. The stage would be… just take any part of the game, it would be recognisable as BotW.
Pokémon Trainer: The Sword/Shield one, if it is supposed to be a showcase of modern Nintendo. Swap between 3—6 Pokémon while controlling both the trainer and the Pokémon, like Rosalina & Luma in Smash. KO the trainer for the actual KO. Most certainly wouldn't be approved by The Pokémon Company. The stage should be based on Sword/Shield, perhaps in one of those lobbies featuring Ball Guy. I don't play Pokémon, so ehhhh.
Kirby: This one is tricky. I'd probably take an assortment of existing abilities as the available moves. Maybe still keep Inhale, and have him copy relevant abilities (Fire, Cutter, etc) to replace the Inhale move? The finisher could be the train or star from Star Allies. The stage would be, um… from Star Allies alone, the endgame is more memorable, but those areas aren't what feel like Kirby to non-fans. Maybe Another Dimension, which still screams modern Kirby, is a part of Star Allies, and less creepier to your casual non-fan?
Animal Crossing inhabitant, with whatever name: In most games you can't actually play as Isabelle, so I'll still pick the human character. Can't think of good moves due to not having played the original games. The stage should be obvious, seeing that we're getting a new game soon.
Inkling: Generic inkling or Agent 4. Again, playable and whatnot. Not sure what a good stage could be based on, but I'd like to see having NPC inklings battling and perhaps damage the fighters.
Samus: Can't elaborate on her moves when her game isn't even out yet. Or stage, for that matter. In any case, let's move away from the Other M design seen in Smash.
Rex: Because Nintendo Switch. Well, Shulk is going to have a Switch appearance too, but that's a remake. Also, blades and whatnot, because I love making the battlefield as chaotic as possible and having to control multiple characters (reminds me of Kankuro in those Naruto fighting games). Not sure about potential stages.
Byleth: It's either the professor or Anna. To keep the Nintendo Switch theme on the other fighters I have so far, I decided to go with Byleth. Moveset should involve sword, light magic, summoning one other student (Ingrid/Falcon Knight, Caspar/Warmaster, Marianne/Holy Knight, to keep spread out between movement type, house and weapon type) to fight, and be able to heal said student. Stage should be just the Garreg Mach Monastery, and general representation should be house-agnostic.
Extra fighter 1: the athlete in Ring Fit Adventure
Extra fighter 2: Spring Man
Extra fighter 3: Musashi from Sushi Strikers
Again, to keep the Nintendo Switch theme. These characters have no extensive history whatsoever, and would be the no-stage fighter picks for me. They're about as much of a surprise factor as Jigglypuff is in Smash 64.
I thought about ditching Pokémon since they aren't Nintendo enough, but Nintendo actually didn't have that many series on the Switch. The next ones to consider are BOXBOY! and Famicom Detective Club, and at this point I'd say just keep Pokémon.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Mar 2, 2020 6:19:54 GMT -5
Here’s where I’d take it. Assuming the same mentality around Smash 64 were carried over to the reboot (12 iconic Nintendo-owned characters), what we should see for a reboot is something like...
Mario
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Link
Zelda
Samus
Yoshi
Kirby
Marth
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Pit
Most of the original roster holds true to the general ethos of “Iconic Nintendo characters” to this day, but notably, Star Fox and F-Zero have long fallen off the radar. In place of Fox, I would expect Marth in a reboot - Fox just hasn’t had a hit in a long time - and the same principle applies to Cpn. Falcon, who I see being replaced by Zelda. Of note, I put Jigglypuff here not because I expect that Jigglypuff would make the cut, but because I can’t imagine what the second Pokémon would be; Charizard would make sense based on the sudden emphasis, but a newer generation (Sw/Sh in particular) seems more apt for a 2020 reboot as well. As for Pit, I don’t expect that Ness would make it either, and I feel like a relatively retro choice would probably take his place.
On the other hand, let’s say that this isn’t a reboot, but that the series actually was starting in 2020. This actually doesn’t alter my roster a whole lot, with the result being...
Mario
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Link
Zelda
Samus
Yoshi
Kirby
Pit
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Isabelle
The notable change here is that I’d cut Marth off this list as well due to the role Smash Bros. played in Fire Emblem’s western release - it’s entirely plausible that Fire Emblem might have never gone global without Melee, so in this Smash 2020 universe, I’m going to assume the same. Here, then, I think we instead see Pit in a starter slot over Fox, and Ness’ slot would instead go to someone more in keeping with Earthbound’s quirky, left-field spirit. In this case, I think it’s going to an Animal Crossing character, and for me, I say Isabelle, though in all honesty it’s more likely what we’d get is Villager. And yes, Jigglypuff is still here on that same principle of “I’m too lazy to pick another Pokémon.” Sue me, it’s 6:15 am.
Surprise! I don’t think there’s a path to twelve characters from unique series following the previously-stated ethos behind Smash 64 in 2020. Aside from how Smash 64 in its own right didn’t do it, frankly speaking there’s just far too few franchises that have the sort of iconic pull in Nintendo’s lineup. An almost blasphemous claim, I know, but what I mean is that Smash 64 wasn’t an advertisement for franchises, it was using association with those franchises to advertise itself. These days, a game like that would be reliant on far fewer franchises, especially if we were to assume that this was a universe that never got Smash until 2020. You’d need to replace 7 characters, over half the roster, with unique, iconic characters with a pool which rapidly turns into either one-offs, franchises that have been dead for over a decade, or region-locks. You could certainly do it, but you stand a better chance of making that magic dozen happen if you let go of the idea that the game should be 1 character per series.
And yes, I am suggesting that you treat Donkey Kong as part of the Mario franchise for this on the grounds that the exact logic behind excluding Yoshi and especially Wario would apply to DK as well. Like, how divorced from a franchise does a spinoff need to be to qualify as an independent franchise? Or how regularly does it need to reintegrate itself to stop qualifying?
But that’s a tangent - see again, it’s 6:15 am. My main point was supposed to be this: There’s a lot of ways to approach the question which could change the answer. I’d be happy to see more spinoffs like Smash Bros. going forward, and I look forward to seeing other answers to the question.
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Post by Leon on Mar 2, 2020 12:54:24 GMT -5
If Smash were to start in 2020, there's no doubt the roster would be different, but I want to try and strive for a gender balanced roster too.
Mario
Inkling
Link
Mythra/Pyra
Donkey Kong
Isabelle
Wario
Twintelle
Byleth
Ayumi Tachibana
Kirby
Officer Howard
Most of these I think are pretty self explanatory. Mythra, Pyra, and Twintelle are massively popular characters from their games, so most wouldn't object to them taking the lead. With the Famitan remakes releasing this year, I think the time would be right for a Smash cross promotion. Astral Chain also proved to be a hit, so I think Howard would be a good addition from the Switch era.
For the characters that are MIA.
Luigi - Luigi's Mansion is too close to Mario in setting to be a unique franchise.
Yoshi - See above
Fox - I love Star Fox, but it's lost its shine over the years whereas other franchises have risen.
Samus - Metroid has also lost status in last decade, and with Prime 4 still MIA I don't think the time is right. Maybe as a DLC fighter
Captain Falcon - See Fox
Ness - See Captain Falcon
Pikachu & Jigglypuff - I genuinely believe that if Smash was created now, TPC would not play ball with Nintendo. Maybe after it proved itself successful, but TPC goes to the beat of its own drum and likes to have its own walled garden.
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Post by Da Robot on Mar 6, 2020 20:48:59 GMT -5
Good idea for a thread. For going with a 2020 Smash roster it would probably be based off successful series or potential tie-ins to existing series for extra promotion. Another question is would HAL Labs be making it and therefore limiting series they worked on/assisted with appearing in it? So most of the picks are 1st party. - Definite picks (popular, current franchise "face" of Nintendo types) Mario Luigi (semi clone) Link (BoTW) Pikachu Recent gen Pokemon rep (akin to Greninja/Incinarora situation) or a Pokemon Trainer with mulitple recent gen starters Donkey Kong (potentially with Diddy riding on his shoulder to reference Retro's DKC series Inkling/Octoling Animal Crossing rep Villager/Isabelle/Tom Nook Fire Emblem rep Marth (first)/Anna(recurring)/Byleth as a "current year" rep? - Maybe picks Kirby (or did he only appear in the original because HAL made it?) Mii Fighter (while still around, Mii's have been downplayed) Zelda (hard to say BoTW or a "fighting" version like they did with ALBW in Ultimate) Ring Fit trainer (recent sales popularity but might be seen as a aimed at a different audience) Olimar (Pikmin 4 promotion?) Samus (Samus Returns sales/MP4 promotion) - Not appearing Jigglypuff (was the 2nd most popular Pokemon voted by the Japanese at the time in the 90's, may have a shared rig/model with Kirby?) Ness (did HAL involvement help get him 64?) F-Zero (tumbleweed rolls by) I have no idea where to put Fox, since Starfox series has such a massive decline the character is on the line of Maybe/Not appearing. Yoshi is another one, Yoshi had more games in the 90's and much less now. The one thing I could see though would be other series (without characters) would probably get stages to represent them, so a Starfox stage with Fox and team attacking or an ARMS arena stage or a Xenoblade stage. Yoshi could be a mount/hazard on a Mario stage. The notable change here is that I’d cut Marth off this list as well due to the role Smash Bros. played in Fire Emblem’s western release - it’s entirely plausible that Fire Emblem might have never gone global without Melee, so in this Smash 2020 universe, I’m going to assume the same. Fire Emblem (7) was greenlit for the western localization after the success/praise of Advance Wars and it's turn based gameplay showing that games of that genre could sell in the west. Advance Wars, the 2001 turn-based tactics game, had previously released before Super Smash Bros. Melee two months prior, which was such a success that Designer Kentaro Nishimura stated “Advance Wars’ success shifted Nintendo’s attitude over western tastes.” Additionally, he goes to say that the Fire Emblem series would have never crossed the seas to the west had Advance Wars not make a prominent impactWhat's more realistic? - A company seeing the money and praise from a similar game genre selling on the GBA Or - Two characters in a crossover fighting GCN game (1 of which whose game hadn't even been released in Japan yet) Can Marth and Roy "sell" a game (FE7) when they aren't even playable in it? It won't be denied that it can be a mixed combo of the two but more supported (money talks) by the first point. |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Mar 9, 2020 20:07:32 GMT -5
In my hypothetical universe where 2020 was the first we saw of Smash Bros., I had to keep the assumption based on Melee demonstrating Western interest in Fire Emblem in particular. Advance Wars’ success wasn’t enough to warrant content in Melee, which to a casual eye at least suggests that Smash was a factor in Fire Emblem’s Western success. Given that, and to avoid too big of a rabbit hole, I figured it would be fairly reasonable to drop Marth rather than stay up to 10am speculating on which franchises might have been more or less relevant in a world without Melee. Incidentally, I picked Pit on the grounds that he was an early retro choice in real Smash history and the two choices prior, Mr. G&W and the Ice Climbers, might have been too gimmicky for a more stripped down, early-series game.
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Post by Leon on Mar 10, 2020 11:28:34 GMT -5
Advance Wars released 2 months before Melee, the sales of that game would have no impact in Melee.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Mar 12, 2020 4:05:29 GMT -5
Advance Wars released 2 months before Melee, the sales of that game would have no impact in Melee. Fair enough, however this is ultimately a minor point for what I’m mainly trying to say, that in the absence of Smash Bros., Fire Emblem’s western release is not guaranteed on the basis of Advance Wars’ success. In fact, considering Nintendo Wars’ setting as a franchise and the...ahem... timing of Advance Wars’ release, a world where the only difference to mention is the absence of the Smash Bros. franchise may quite reasonably have seen Nintendo Wars as Nintendo’s big franchise of the genre, and not Fire Emblem. Smash Bros. gave Fire Emblem publicity in the Western market which might well have given it the attention needed to overcome the lack of cultural infrastructure that should, by all accounts, have otherwise benefited Nintendo Wars. Of course, I’d be lying if I said all of what I just said was on my mind when I posted my lists, but that’s a whole other can of worms. All I can say now, at least until this conversation continues, is that I made a choice based on a simplified account of a story I make zero claim to having had in full, and ended up engaged in research into a fascinating anthropological topic regarding the influence of world events on mass media, so either I’m right to question Fire Emblem’s chances in the West without Melee, or I’ve learned something interesting about a subject that I’m passionate about. Either way, I win, so nyeh! I am such a nerd.By the way, kinda just noticed a flaw in the “Fire Emblem got to the West because Advance Wars” argument y’all are making. This is an IF-THEN statement saying that IF !A, THEN !F (If Advance Wars not success, then Fire Emblem not released). That does not mean the same as IF A, THEN F (If Advance Wars success, Fire Emblem released). The dependent situation is that Advance Wars fails; if it succeeds, that opens the possibility for Fire Emblem’s release, but other factors may yet apply - lack of Western interest in the franchise in particular, FE6 bombing in Japan, Nintendo’s highers-up deciding “Nah...” Point is, the logic here does not validate the idea that Advance Wars’ success is the reason for Fire Emblem’s western release, only that its failure would have prevented it. |
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Post by Leon on Mar 12, 2020 12:01:48 GMT -5
What you're forgetting to take into account, is that these days very few Nintendo titles stay Japan only, the only Switch game being Brain Age without an American release at this point (and there's speculation that this is a legal issue, not a localization one). There is basically zero doubt that Three Houses would have had an international release with or without Fire Emblem going international on the GBA.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Mar 12, 2020 14:38:07 GMT -5
While not an unreasonable argument, this is a recent development. Let’s not forget that the two Fire Emblem games that released before Awakening, the game that might have ended the franchise, were remakes of Japan-exclusive titles, the first of which released the same year as Captain Rainbow. I have little doubt we’d see Fire Emblem in the west after Awakening’s roaring success, but if we’re going as far back as Blazing Blade...I mean, that was 3 years before Mother 3.
I feel like I’ve been getting spiraled into a lot of massive tangents about Fire Emblem lately. This seems bizarre to me; I actually do like the franchise, and it kinda feels like people think otherwise? And more importantly, that people are, in that belief, acting disproportionately aggressive towards me for the points that I’m actually trying to make. Like, healthy discussion is an important part of any community and I’m happy to engage, but it’s starting to feel like I’m defending myself a little too frequently.
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Post by Leon on Mar 12, 2020 18:42:06 GMT -5
I don't think anybody is objecting to your roster, it's just your reasoning. Personally I find this an interesting thought experiment, and I take no offense to any of the decisions anyone made on their rosters.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Mar 12, 2020 21:18:55 GMT -5
In that case, I’ll just put this here. My reasoning for the second roster, based on a hypothetical universe where Smash Bros. as a concept is entirely new as of 2020, is based on a very different set of factors than the first roster, based on a new crossover franchise in our current world. It’s an important point to make that Smash Bros., and especially Melee, has been highly influential on the Western audience. Remove it, and it changes the market’s trajectory pretty substantially. As has been said, Advance Wars’ success was a major factor in the decision to release Fire Emblem in the west, but in a world without Smash Bros., there’s going to be very different factors to account for. Any given variable being changed could alter the result, and a different outcome would be entirely within the realm of possibility. All else being equal, Fire Emblem is the one franchise in Smash Bros. which is both successful and whose success without Smash Bros. is most in question. All others are either independently successful, independently failed, or definitely benefited from inclusion in Smash Bros. Hence I’m a bit more cautious about including Fire Emblem in our first game in the Smash 2020 universe.
Now if we were talking the 25-character sequel...
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