Thoughts on the Term "JRPG"

[Nester the Lark]

This news is a week old at this point, but I wanted to bring it up to hear what any of you guys might have to say about it.

Basically, during an interview, the producer of Final Fantasy XVI, Naoki "Yoshi-P" Yoshida, took issue with the term JRPG, saying that when it first started being used around 15 years ago, many Japanese developers considered it discriminatory. They didn't like being compartmentalized from a more general use of the term RPG because they didn't see the games they were making as separate from RPGs made anywhere else.

You can see the full quote in this Eurogamer article.

This caused debate about whether the term is really discriminatory, and a lot of people pointed fingers at games press in the '00s for sometimes using the term in a negative way, thus creating a stereotype.

This got me to thinking about how I've used the term over the years, but looking through old posts here on the forum, as well as on Twitter, I was surprised to see that I actually haven't used it much. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Instead, I usually just used the general term "RPG."

In my mind, however, "RPG" is more of an umbrella term that encompasses all of the subgenres, such as action-RPG and strategy-RPG, as well as JRPG. (Plus, "WRPG" and "European RPG" are also terms that exist.) Furthermore, I always used to think of the term "JRPG" in a literal sense: an RPG made in Japan. More recently, however, I've come to think of it more as a stylistic distinction. For example, Elden Ring is an RPG made by a Japanese developer, but it's not necessarily what comes to mind from the term JRPG. On the other hand, you have indie games like the upcoming Sea of Stars, an RPG made by a Canadian developer, but it's specifically modeled after classic Japanese RPGs like Chrono Trigger.

Even during the time I decided I didn't want to play RPGs anymore, it wasn't about Japanese RPGs specifically. Indeed, the few RPGs I did play at that time were things like Fire Emblem and Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles.

And when I got back into RPGs properly, around the year I played Ys Book I & II and Xenoblade Chronicles, I also played through a couple of games in the classic Ultima series. Not long after that, I became a fan of the Quest for Glory series.

Kit & Krysta had a good discussion of the topic on their podcast here. Basically, they understood where Yoshida was coming from, but also made note that a lot of people would consider their favorite genre to be specifically JRPGs. They also felt that Yoshida brought the topic up because Final Fantasy XVI is intended to reach an audience that might not like the typical JRPG stereotypes, and thus he wanted to distance it from the term.

Anyway, what are you guys' thoughts? Is JRPG a dirty word?

[nocturnal YL]

Took me a while to comment, because I honestly don't know what to say. I also wanted to wait to see if anyone else would chime in, but I guess most of our other members are in read-only mode now, showing login activities and only occasionally posting. I'm fine with that, by the way.

I have a lot to nitpick on the world of games, but not this one. I don't really have much to say. I understand Yoshida's complaint on the term, being that some people avoid games with certain labels. And parts of the west certainly give me the impression that they see Japanese media as nerdy, of bad taste and generic.

There's a reason why is western localisation changing so much stuff, and why didn't they really warm up to Japanese media until the 1990s, while Asia has been importing Japanese pop culture, often with minimal edit, since around the 1960s. I feel that having Japanese media as a hobby isn't really "acceptable" until the 2010s (which you may remember as the time when gamers started demanding localisation of all Japanese games), which, looking at it as an Asian, is really weird to me.

Regarding RPGs specifically, I recall watching a video on YouTube that claims JRPGs focus on storytelling while WRPGs are really role-playing in its literal sense, putting the player into a certain situation and let the player's action decide the outcome. That video didn't comment so much on things like graphics style. I forgot which video did that analysis, though.

And so, is JRPG a discriminatory term? By itself, I'd say no. I can see why people derive negative connotation from it, and I'd say even a simple demonym can be discriminatory given the right context. But it certainly does feel like a western invention, and does carry that "you're not us" feel. Even though someone using the term may not mean it negatively.

[Nester the Lark]

Mar 28, 2023 11:14:03 GMT -5 nocturnal YL said:

I have a lot to nitpick on the world of games, but not this one. I don't really have much to say. I understand Yoshida's complaint on the term, being that some people avoid games with certain labels. And parts of the west certainly give me the impression that they see Japanese media as nerdy, of bad taste and generic.

Yeah, for sure. It has a weird stigma, where people might use the word "anime" as a derogatory (eg. "Fire Emblem has gotten too anime."), when all it really boils down to is that they personally don't like certain tropes.

Mar 28, 2023 11:14:03 GMT -5 nocturnal YL said:

There's a reason why is western localisation changing so much stuff, and why didn't they really warm up to Japanese media until the 1990s, while Asia has been importing Japanese pop culture, often with minimal edit, since around the 1960s. I feel that having Japanese media as a hobby isn't really "acceptable" until the 2010s (which you may remember as the time when gamers started demanding localisation of all Japanese games), which, looking at it as an Asian, is really weird to me.

Truthfully, America in the 1980s was a little bit averse to Japan. Perhaps it was a hangover from World War II, combined with Japan's economic prominence of the era, that caused some Americans of the time to take pause. So, even Nintendo back then made an effort to downplay the fact that it was a Japanese company. (Hard to do with a name like "Nintendo.")

But as I see it, the kids back then that grew up watching anime or playing Japanese games (even as altered as they were) were the ones who gained the appreciation for it, and later as adults, allowed it to be more acceptable. By the time the Wii came out, Nintendo's advertising even leaned into its Japanese origin.

But yeah, even now, some people in the West still view things that are "too Japanese" as this weird foreign thing that only "weebs" are into.

Mar 28, 2023 11:14:03 GMT -5 nocturnal YL said:

Regarding RPGs specifically, I recall watching a video on YouTube that claims JRPGs focus on storytelling while WRPGs are really role-playing in its literal sense, putting the player into a certain situation and let the player's action decide the outcome. That video didn't comment so much on things like graphics style. I forgot which video did that analysis, though.

This is a perception that actually goes back a long way. Another term that isn't really used anymore is "CRPG" for Computer RPG. Western RPGs were something that appeared more on PCs and were more complex, whereas JRPGs appeared more on consoles and were more streamlined.

Another thing to take into account is that RPGs on consoles were a *very* niche market in the West during the '90s. We look back on the SNES as a great haven for RPGs, but in reality, in North America, the genre didn't break into the mainstream until Final Fantasy VII came out on PlayStation. Before that, the few JRPGs that got localized were sometimes watered down and made much easier in an attempt to be more accessible to the Western audience. This fueled the perception that JRPGs were shallow experiences compared to WRPGs. (There's an old joke that goes, "How do you beat a Final Fantasy game? Press the A button until you get to the end.")

Mar 28, 2023 11:14:03 GMT -5 nocturnal YL said:

And so, is JRPG a discriminatory term? By itself, I'd say no. I can see why people derive negative connotation from it, and I'd say even a simple demonym can be discriminatory given the right context. But it certainly does feel like a western invention, and does carry that "you're not us" feel. Even though someone using the term may not mean it negatively.

I appreciate your perspective on this, so thank you.

[Evie ❤✿]

Yeah I feel sad for Yoshi-P. I personally think we should stop using the term too but due to the popularity of the term it would be hard to change now (though some terms/words do have their meanings change or no longer fit over time). Here it's an unfortunate case, because the term has stuck with (narrow) stereotypes for what the games are like have been attached based on the word "Japanese" (JRPG) or "Western" (RPG/Western RPG) with people saying things like 'JRPGs are more storytelling-driven', or 'Western RPGs have more realistic worlds', even though in reality you could still have an RPG game that was developed in Japan or the West that breaks those rules and with today being a more postmodern era, Japanese people are more exposed to Western media, and vice versa. Also there is the case of "anime" as opposed to "animation from the West" where similar stereotypes stick.

In a broader sense in general I think when a game releases and becomes popular, then by first example can bring connotations of 'how they are meant to play like', like a platform game 'involves jumping around on objects and falling', or an adventure game involves a 'protagonist during a story with exploring'. However, a lot of it is a sociological construction and isn't black and white. It can also be by chance (if no game like a platform game was ever released, there would be no need to invent the term "platform game" or in alternative world we still might not have even imagined what one was like). There have also occasional games which have been given the blanket term "action"/"simulation"/"arcade", or a certain genre might not be considered 'mainstream'/'successful' enough e.g. "monster battling" (instead sadly referred to as "Pokémon ripoffs") or alternatively there might not be enough games like it.

While we can tend to think of only a few core genres like "Action, Adventure, Fighting, Platform, Puzzle, Racing, Role-playing, Shooter, Simulation, Sports, Strategy" in reality there are more than this, and with more specific sub-genres

Sometimes action/platform adventure/RPG elements can also blend together. www.nintendolife.com/news/2021/03/talking_point_is_zelda_an_rpg_or_not In a lexicological sense when you form a term or word, there are rules applied to it so it can be argued that in general it can be a bit arbitrary when you find similar things that break those rules. However, there is also a case where sometimes a genre like "racing" (referring to an action) might be more easier to understand than "role-playing game" (in The Legend of Zelda you play the role of Link, but for some reason it has been considered more of an adventure game).

By the 'first example' the genre is born and we start to see more "platform" games like Mario with jumping, or "role-playing" games like Final Fantasy with turn-based battling, though it can split e.g. role-playing games with stereotypical Medieval elements, ones with fantasy elements. When Shigesato Itoi made Mother, he realised a lot of RPGs featured older archetypes like 'knights', 'castles', and 'dragons' so instead broke the mold a little and made a quirkier game with more contemporary themes that was a play on America.

We also have the racing genre where there can be a split between preceived connotations. We can compare racing games like Cruis'n, Ridge Racer, or Asphalt as being less cartoony/often more serious games than games with item boxes like Mario Kart and Crash Team Racing or they might feature exclusively Formula 1-style cars, then there are racing games with car combat, other vehicles like bikes, monster trucks, aeroplanes.

[Fryguy64]

There are certainly many instances where a Western studio (or more likely, a Western Indie developer) has put out something that would be classed as a JRPG. So pointing out the country of origin rather than giving it a class based on its stylistic difference does raise an eyebrow.

But then when you do that you can just as easily end up with a class like "Metroidvania" and everybody loses.

Eh, I don't have many thoughts on JRPG, it turns out

[Compa]

Mar 28, 2023 15:08:51 GMT -5 Nester the Lark said:

Another thing to take into account is that RPGs on consoles were a *very* niche market in the West during the '90s. We look back on the SNES as a great haven for RPGs, but in reality, in North America, the genre didn't break into the mainstream until Final Fantasy VII came out on PlayStation. Before that, the few JRPGs that got localized were sometimes watered down and made much easier in an attempt to be more accessible to the Western audience. This fueled the perception that JRPGs were shallow experiences compared to WRPGs. (There's an old joke that goes, "How do you beat a Final Fantasy game? Press the A button until you get to the end.")

Also another thing to take into account is that in most of Europe those titles were never released because of the lack of success in the US effectively translating to potential distributors as 'we won't distribute this here because it will fail' without bothering to take into account that Europe !== the US (though besides France and Spain, consoles weren't really taken seriously until the PS1 here at least), or because they (publishers, or the developers themselves) just hated the region at the time and still do to this day. Square Enix's PS2 releases in the PAL region come to mind as being a complete joke, everyone else was at least bothering to optimise somewhat at that point except them and it stuck out like a sore thumb.

One particular factor that probably contributed to this was likely due to them looking at the UK as an important market for such games back then, which is very against the typical anime tropes due to it being very much a country that imposes the stereotypical alpha male gender role in a certain manner*.

Countries such as France, Germany, Spain and Italy saw more success with 'rather Japanese' titles on the rare occasion they were sold in Europe in the 90s, a good example of proving this is how Terranigma, a PAL-exclusive internationally, the English version is near-impossible to find on cartridge, but the other language versions are in far higher abundance.

* I would also argue that the highly conservative/negative attitudes towards Japanese games and media that relies heavily on cultural tropes that may not be accepted in the West in the UK is a strong factor as to why trans-exclusionary radical feminism is the most popular form of feminist ideology here too, but that's a matter of debate for another discussion...

[Nester the Lark]

Hardcore Gaming 101 recently posted an article on game I had forgotten about called Sudeki. It's an early example of a Western RPG deliberately trying to imitate the look and feel of a Japanese RPG. It was developed by Climax Studios, a British developer, and published by Microsoft Game Studios for, of all things, the original Xbox in 2004. (Also Windows.)

This was back when Microsoft still thought Xbox had a chance to gain traction in Japan. I have not played it, but it strikes me as the inverse of when a Japanese publisher tries to appeal specifically to the Western market by imitating a Western style, but it doesn't quite feel authentic.

I'm especially amused by the difference between the Western and Japanese box art. You can tell the Western box art is trying to use an anime style, but it just looks awkward, whereas the Japanese box art was probably actually done in Japan and looks far better.

[nocturnal YL]

It looks exactly like what it is. An Xbox game trying to stay relevant in Japan without realising it doesn't really have the same appeal.

It's not like westerners can't make Japanese art. There are plenty of examples from RWBY to some of the modern visual novels to the Epic Battle Fantasy series. I can't think of notable examples on console-based RPGs though.

[Nester the Lark]

I didn't mean to imply that Western artist can't do good anime-style art. In this case, though, it looks like anime-style is what they were going for, but they didn't quite get it right. (Actually, I see examples of this fairly often with some indie games on the NA eShop.)

Come to think of it, there was an old feature on HG101 showing Japanese box art for Western games that I remember being really interesting. (Not sure if it's still online.) Some were completely redrawn with an anime art style. Other times, there were minor adjustments for cultural differences. (A character with a big teethy grin would be altered to have their mouth closed, for example.) Also, I remember the box art for the SSX games would feature the Japanese character Kaori Nishidake on the cover.

[Nester the Lark]

In an interview with VGC, Hideki Kamiya gave his opinion on the term "JRPG."

Unlike Naoki Yoshida, Kamiya believes that Japan should be proud of the term JRPG. He thinks the term highlights the unique sensibilities that Japanese creators put into their work, and it denotes a style that can't be made anywhere else.

He uses a couple of examples of how certain manga were localized outside of Japan, and it changed the tone of the original material (either positively or negatively).

“It’s not really a case of good versus bad – whether Japanese or American creators created the more positive portrayal of Ultraman – it’s more the unique differences in our culture and how our influences affect our creativity, the fact that Japanese creators have this unique sense when we do create content.”

You know how I feel about Kamiya at this point, but I do like his perspective on this. It reminds me of how Japanese publishers in the early HD era tried really hard to imitate Western game styles in order to have an international appeal, but often failed. Ironically, Japanese games seem to do better overseas when they embrace their own strengths.

[Nester the Lark]

The debate rages on.

In a Eurogamer article, referencing an interview with The Guardian, Final Fantasy VII Rebirth creative director Tetsuya Nomura and producer Yoshinori Kitase had opposing opinions on the term JRPG.

“I’m not too keen on it,” says an animated Nomura. “Certainly, when we started doing interviews for the games that I started making, no one used that term – they just called them RPGs. And then at some point – I can’t remember exactly when – people started referring to them as JRPGs. And I’m not really sure what the intent behind that is. It just always felt a bit off to me, and a bit weird. I never really understood it – or why it’s needed.”

“Personally, I don’t see it as that derogative,” shrugs Kitase. “I think obviously with modern gaming, titles developed in the west are the majority now. So if [JRPG] is only used in terms of differentiating – maybe showing off a slightly different approach to games or a unique flavour in terms of Japanese-made games – I’m absolutely fine with that.”

[Nester the Lark]

Composer Yuzo Koshiro recently posted this on eX-Twitter:

I guess it all just boils down to there not being a general consensus about whether the term is offensive or not. There are different ways to interpret a connotation from it, and whether you find the term negative or not might depend on what you think the intent was behind it.

Maybe it's also just becoming one of those gaming terms that some people get bent out of shape over, like "metroidvania" and "shmup".