Sonic and the Secret Rings

[Deleted]

Shadow bothers me because he's an emo angstpot Black Sonic. He's the furry version of Transformers repaints where the color schemes are voted on by nerds. It has nothing to do with knowing more about him, and while the fact that he has a craptastic game helps fuel the fire, that really has nothing to do with it either. For a series that fails to make its characters original, Shadow is, by comparison, an abysmal stereotype--and he happens to be one that people either can't stand (like me), or people identify with. For the latter of those two groups, save yourself forty bucks and buy a Linkin Park CD at Walmart.

kirbychu said:

From Sonic's page on Sonic Channel (translated, of course):

"Selfishly fond of freedom but very likeable, with a great dislike of secrecy. Although sometimes quick tempered, he possesses kindness in bringing freedom to distressed people. Considering life a series of events and adventures, he lives by his own rules and common sense. He keeps promises. He is no traitor. His justice is honest. Though a habitual daredevil aloof from the world, when some kind of crisis arises he becomes a different person, with a degree of intensity and sharpness that astonishes the watcher. In any case, you cannot quietly be the fastest hedgehog in history."

I'm of the opinion that there's a stark difference between stating that sort of thing on a website and exploring it in the game. Of course, it's neat to go online and find something out about characters that they just plain don't have room for (like, what Sonic's favorite kind of food would be), but if they addressed his personality--why he is the way he is--during the course of a game, then they'd have a pretty kickin' story right there.

Of course not every game needs to do this...one of my favorite video games doesn't develop its characters at all. But since Sonic games tend to act like something they aren't, they really either need to abandon their false pretenses, or try living up to the standards they've set for themselves.

[Smashchu]

i82.photobucket.com/albums/j263/Smashchu/making_a_sonic_game.png?t=1175042754
Zoom in for best results.(Let me know if it need touch ups)

[Dances in Undergarments]

hahahahahahahahahaha

awesome

[Wildcat]

Smashchu - lol, seems fairly accurate these days.

Boy, what a heated debate this has become.

[kirbychu]

sgtmajorkururu said:

Shadow bothers me because he's an emo angstpot Black Sonic. He's the furry version of Transformers repaints where the color schemes are voted on by nerds.

I'm sorry, but I am so sick of this argument. So much so that I made a comparison. For two characters of the same species who are supposed to look similar for story purposes, Sonic and Shadow still look very different. In the games, they're always saying that Sonic and Shadow look like twins, but, to me at least, they look different enough that it always seems unreasonable that people mistake them for each other.

Hell, Luigi is far more a Mario recolour than Shadow is a Sonic one. Do you hate Luigi?

sgtmajorkururu said:

For a series that fails to make its characters original, Shadow is, by comparison, an abysmal stereotype--and he happens to be one that people either can't stand (like me), or people identify with. For the latter of those two groups, save yourself forty bucks and buy a Linkin Park CD at Walmart.

Look closer at the characters. There is no Sonic character who isn't an anime stereotype. It's like Scooby Doo in that respect. I, personally, like Shadow, but not because I delude myself into identifying with him. I'm just not looking for deep characters in a childrens' video game.

sgtmajorkururu said:

but if they addressed his personality--why he is the way he is--during the course of a game, then they'd have a pretty kickin' story right there.

I do agree, and maybe someday they will. But for now they've given reasons why they won't, and they make sense. For a while a few years back I actually really wanted some kind of background story on Sonic, but now I think something like that would completely change the way people percieve him. He wouldn't be the cool stranger who helps anyone without needing reasons any more.

sgtmajorkururu said:

But since Sonic games tend to act like something they aren't, they really either need to abandon their false pretenses, or try living up to the standards they've set for themselves.

See, I like what they're doing now, because they have stories that're like comic book ones, but without taking themselves as seriously. They still have room for slapstick comedy, they still have room for cartoony characters, and they don't expect you to have read 50+ years worth of stories to understand what the hell's going on.

[Dances in Undergarments]

kirbychu said:

sgtmajorkururu said:

Shadow bothers me because he's an emo angstpot Black Sonic. He's the furry version of Transformers repaints where the color schemes are voted on by nerds.

I'm sorry, but I am so sick of this argument. So much so that I made a comparison. For two characters of the same species who are supposed to look similar for story purposes, Sonic and Shadow still look very different. In the games, they're always saying that Sonic and Shadow look like twins, but, to me at least, they look different enough that it always seems unreasonable that people mistake them for each other.

Hell, Luigi is far more a Mario recolour than Shadow is a Sonic one. Do you hate Luigi?

At what point did Mario games become a good example of original character design? Luigi, Wario, Bowser Jr, Waluigi, Toadette - all of these characters are completely unoriginal, its just that over time Nintendo has given them personality (well, for the first two, somewhat for the third and slightly for the fourth). As far as I can tell, Shadow has not had that luxury outside of being the 'OMG GANGSTA' guy.

[kirbychu]

dancesinunderwear said:

At what point did Mario games become a good example of original character design? Luigi, Wario, Bowser Jr, Waluigi, Toadette - all of these characters are completely unoriginal, its just that over time Nintendo has given them personality (well, for the first two, somewhat for the third and slightly for the fourth). As far as I can tell, Shadow has not had that luxury outside of being the 'OMG GANGSTA' guy.

Shadow isn't gangsta, he's the stereotypical brooding anti-hero. Knuckles is more gangsta than he is. Shadow is almost exactly like Mewtwo in personality. In fact, they even have a lot of similarities in their background. Created to be the most powerful creature in a lab by a scientist trying to find a way to save a dead/dying daughter/granddaughter, befriending a little blonde girl who then dies... I wouldn't be surprised if Shadow was based originally on Mewtwo.

Though Mewtwo's background doesn't involve aliens, the military, prototypes running wild, or a plot to avenge the little girl's death.

[Fryguy64]

I think the "gangsta" thing comes from the Shadow game, where he's basically running around with a gun. Last time I checked, brooding anti-heroes didn't do that. They usually just shoot themselves.

Mario's not a great series for character originality, but it's a great series for character development (well, quite a few of the games are - some games make the characters seem lifeless and plastic).

Wario's the best example - possibly in all of gaming. Created simply as an ugly anti-Mario to populate a game (one not developed by EAD, take note) and he's been transformed into a completely distinct character in his own right. I mean who doesn't recognise that bright nose and spiky moustache motif any more?

Waluigi hasn't even appeared in any proper games yet, and still he's loved. Wasn't always the way - when he was created he was generally despised by all. But you gotta love that bendy crazy guy!

[Deleted]

kirbychu said:

Look closer at the characters. There is no Sonic character who isn't an anime stereotype. It's like Scooby Doo in that respect. I, personally, like Shadow, but not because I delude myself into identifying with him. I'm just not looking for deep characters in a childrens' video game.

Because I can't be bothered to respond to your entire post (I honestly don't care that much), I'm just going to point out the fact that I did indeed say the rest of the cast lacked originality:

For a series that fails to make its characters original

I'm just saying Shadow is even more of a stereotype; he makes the rest of the Sonic cast look like Warios by comparison (mooching off Fry's point).

That's it tho, I'm done. You've taken it farther than I care to go, so have a ball. Jeez. XD

[kirbychu]

Fair enough. So I guess that means none of my points are valid for some reason. Whatever.

What gets me is that, when asked, most people will say they hate Shadow because he's just a black Sonic. Of course, this is perfectly okay when it comes to characters like Luigi, Blood Falcon, Dark Samus... hating Sonic is just in vogue at the moment.

For the record, I wasn't saying Mario characters are unoriginal. I love Mario character designs, I just don't think having characters who look similar is a series-ending catastrophe. All the examples I gave are justified in some way by the storyline, and not one of them, Shadow included, is pretending not to be a clone of another character.

[Manspeed]

Shadow left a huge gash in the series for far more than being an evil twin, I'm afraid.

[kirbychu]

Is it because he died, came back, then got his own spin-off? Is it, then, cool to condemn Zero? I feel I'm losing touch.

Ah, whatever. You're all so elitist about it that I guess not absolutely despising this side character in a children's game just isn't cool any more.

[Dances in Undergarments]

Its because he has a gun and a jeep. Its also because his game sucked more than a regular Sonic game, which is saying something. Its really simple.

[Fryguy64]

And yes, it is cool to condemn Zero, because his games are utter bastards!!

I don't think the inclusion of Shadow alone was enough to condemn the series, but then they make sparkly white hedgehog for Sonic '06. Sonic's basically become Yoshi - we have blue, red (Knux), pink (Amy), black (Shadow) and white (the sparkly one) and Robot. Do we have green and yellow? I'm not particularly well versed in all Sonic games.

It's not that it's the end of the series. It's not even a criticism to have a lot of characters. But when you have so many with so little variation, they're going to struggle to give them individuality. Which is why the earlier characters are still considerably more popular. Don't create what you don't need. After Knux did there really need to be another confused, introverted character who sides with the bad guys for the wrong reason? Does Cream need to exist? And what about that new female character in Sonic Rush? Does she fill a gap in the series, or was she simply treading on the toes of other characters.

It's overkill. Simple as that.

EDIT

And I just had another thought. The Luigi argument doesn't stick. He did fill a gaping hole in the series - namely the Player II shaped hole in a simultaneous multiplayer arcade game. The only other options at the time were giant ape, giant ape's son and girl in dress. Not even Stanley had been created at the time.

Was Stanley overkill? Perhaps, and now he's been left in the past. Peach took over the "damsel" role, and Nintendo more or less ditched Pauline altogether. Of course Toadette was exactly the same kind of overkill - and it was kinda annoying. Just as it must be annoying for Sonic fans every time a new Sonic game is released with a new character that could easily have been filled by an older character.

And this is why I love Tingle. He filled a quite obvious deficiency of "weird" in the Zelda series. Otherwise it was in danger of taking itself a little too seriously.

[Old Man Rupee]

Reading this discussion has made me want to imagine some character developement for Waluigi, weirdly enough. (I mean its weird that all I got out of this discussion about Sonic characters is an urge to make up stuff about Waluigi)

In that vein of thought, I'm seriously thinking that Waluigi is one of those acts-like-a-fool guys with a hidden intellegent side, maybe with a secret lust for torturing people. He looks the type.