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Post by Spud on Aug 31, 2007 15:31:00 GMT -5
I think it's less Second Party Hating and more... that it's just easier to get in contact and work with First Party Producers. For instance... I suspect anything additional to Metroid is more likely to be drawn from R&D1 or NST than from Retro. Retro is a first party, but they're all the way in Austin, TX. And good luck to Sakurai trying to understand their crazy Texan English ;D What the hell is that supposed to mean? Putting R's and apostrophes where they don't belong dosen't make us hard to understand 
Sweet update quite easily my favorite level yet. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2007 16:27:12 GMT -5
Perhaps I'm going off too far and perhaps Masamune is right in the first party contacting thing... but I still want evidence. I'm still at my "Sakurai hates second party and adopts second party stuff just because audiences want it" stance. I think he's just trying to hide from the fact that he discards second party. EDIT: Counter-attack: IntSys is just as easy to contact to as Nintendo, considering it's a game developer who tries to look for them, not an average consumer! So... I still need evidence. Until I see more evidences! I see where you're coming from; I'm neutral on this whole "Sakurai on 2nd Party" issue, but I'll play the devil's advocate this once and ask you something. You want proof that's contrary to Sakurai hating 2nd Parties, but what proof do you have that he does hate 'em? Fry said ages ago that Smash Bros. has always had a fair representation from 2nd Party stuff and proved it with a neat little formula. Can't sit down and pound it out now, but watch this space. And good luck to Sakurai trying to understand their crazy Texan English ;D What the hell is that supposed to mean? Putting R's and apostrophes where they don't belong dosen't make us hard to understand
Sweet update quite easily my favorite level yet. Yeah, now that I think of it, Sakurai would probably have a harder time understanding an accent from the New England area. We're crazy up here in how we speak! ;D |
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Post by Smashchu on Aug 31, 2007 20:31:35 GMT -5
In the 2nd party thing, I think it's noty that he hates them. Sure, there is more first party stuff, but whjat are the major second parties? Inteligence Systems, Game Freak, and Hal. Others are not as major, and don't have numerous franchises under their betl, but these three have the most. Aas far as characters, we have Kirby, Fire Emblem, Earthbound, Pokemon. Which in Melee was 8 characters. Sure not much, but let's ponder this.
6 characters apper in Mario games, 7 if we add the Doc. 25-8=17-7=10. First party has a lot becuase of the fact that. Lots of Mario.
But that's not all. If we look back, the only one 2nd party franchise that hasn't gotten in that needs to be is Advance Wars. This is becuase of the franchise's popularty and longevity. There is Drill Dozer and Golden Sun, but more likely they'll have to wait for others to get their spot. What I'm getting at is where do all these franchiose come from. Nintendo EDA and R&S1. Mario, Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Kid Icarus, Starfox, F-Zero, Ice Climbers. They are all 1st party franchise, and that's without the Mario shot off.
It's not that he hates them, it's more that when you look back at the major franchise in Nintendo's history, most are 1st party.
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Post by Hiker of Games on Aug 31, 2007 21:17:49 GMT -5
And as I outlined in another topic, a lot of second parties major titles were originally first party stuff.
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Post by nocturnal YL on Sept 1, 2007 10:53:04 GMT -5
I see where you're coming from; I'm neutral on this whole "Sakurai on 2nd Party" issue, but I'll play the devil's advocate this once and ask you something. You want proof that's contrary to Sakurai hating 2nd Parties, but what proof do you have that he does hate 'em? Fry said ages ago that Smash Bros. has always had a fair representation from 2nd Party stuff and proved it with a neat little formula. Can't sit down and pound it out now, but watch this space. Okay, perhaps "hate" is a strong word, but he DOES indeed discard second party developers. Or maybe with those proofs, I coud have been satisfied. Let's put it in another way, perhaps? We see very few Rare stuff there. Camelot? A Waluigi trophy and Peach's Smash Side A. You may say in terms of scale of sales it is right to apportion stuff like that, but obviously some developers get less than their share, Rare being the most obvious one. IntSys are just... not that important. There. I said it. (Imagine the followings are in all caps, for the sake of a more comfortable reading I just don't use all caps or bold) WRONG. Without IntSys, there wouldnn't even be the Nintendo you see now. They are for the hardware development, and they make software developing programs which benefitted countless developers. Plus, they co-made the Donkey Kong rcade board before becoming independent from Nintendo. That is to say, if they were not there, Mario series - no, the entire gaming world would be different. This is just like how a butterfly flapping in South America can cause typhoons in Asia - it's a chain effect. In the 2nd party thing, I think it's noty that he hates them. Sure, there is more first party stuff, but whjat are the major second parties? Inteligence Systems, Game Freak, and Hal. Others are not as major, and don't have numerous franchises under their betl, but these three have the most. Aas far as characters, we have Kirby, Fire Emblem, Earthbound, Pokemon. Which in Melee was 8 characters. Sure not much, but let's ponder this. 6 characters apper in Mario games, 7 if we add the Doc. 25-8=17-7=10. First party has a lot becuase of the fact that. Lots of Mario. But that's not all. If we look back, the only one 2nd party franchise that hasn't gotten in that needs to be is Advance Wars. This is becuase of the franchise's popularty and longevity. There is Drill Dozer and Golden Sun, but more likely they'll have to wait for others to get their spot. What I'm getting at is where do all these franchiose come from. Nintendo EDA and R&S1. Mario, Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Kid Icarus, Starfox, F-Zero, Ice Climbers. They are all 1st party franchise, and that's without the Mario shot off. It's not that he hates them, it's more that when you look back at the major franchise in Nintendo's history, most are 1st party. Surely yeah, Miyamoto's team made the most of it. In terms of the number of sales, Mario series alone covered more than half of Nintendo's sales. But does that mean Sakurai should just go and negate the second parties? Well, perhaps it is fairly acceptable that second party games aren't that popular before Melee (I'm not commenting for Brawl here, we'll have to wait for the game to be released), but just think about it. Is Diddy Kong any less popular than the Ice Climbers? There you go. |
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Post by kirbychu on Sept 1, 2007 11:28:50 GMT -5
We see very few Rare stuff there. Camelot? A Waluigi trophy and Peach's Smash Side A. You may say in terms of scale of sales it is right to apportion stuff like that, but obviously some developers get less than their share, Rare being the most obvious one. I guess you ignored the part of my post which pointed out the ridiculous amount of Rare stuff in Melee.  (Imagine the followings are in all caps, for the sake of a more comfortable reading I just don't use all caps or bold) WRONG. Without IntSys, there wouldnn't even be the Nintendo you see now. They are for the hardware development, and they make software developing programs which benefitted countless developers. Plus, they co-made the Donkey Kong rcade board before becoming independent from Nintendo. And? How is that going to be represented in Smash Bros, then? A playable Donkey Kong Arcade machine? That's stupid. IntSys are not very important from a software standpoint. Yet you talk as though Smash Bros should have more IntSys stuff than EAD stuff. Which is ridiculous to say the least. IntSys had plenty of representation in Melee, as did HAL, Rare and Game Freak. Game Freak even had more than EAD what with the PokéBall Pokémon, and they're second party. So really, evidence completely destroys the idea that Sakurai hates second parties. You're just refusing to acknowledge it. |
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Post by nocturnal YL on Sept 1, 2007 12:46:23 GMT -5
Let's see... It's still (add "politically" here if you like) incorrect to say IntSys is not important. They made the first and thrid Metroid and some other significant stuff like Famicom Wars, or some less beknown like Battle Clash series. I'm not talking about IS, or any second party in particular, should overwhelm EAD.
And Sakurai does Pokémon for two reasons: (1) it is popular, (2) HAL makes some Pokémon spinoffs. Sakurai is somewhat a HAL-hater (well, what I personally think, just see how he criticizes the working environment regarding to Air Ride) so I guess (1) is more appropriate. It's Sakurai's game, but that doesn't mean other people aren't involved in the development at all, so SSB is more of a mixture of ideas. And I'm only talking about Sakurai's part. (Although one thing is certain, is that Sakurai took the writing part (profiles, trophies and such) by himself.)
Anyway, let my post be the last to be off-topic and let's just say I surrender and will stop saying Sakurai hates second party, kay? I'm not here to launch disputes.
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Post by kirbychu on Sept 1, 2007 12:58:52 GMT -5
Let's see... It's still (add "politically" here if you like) incorrect to say IntSys is not important. I said their games are less important. Which is perfectly true. And they didn't make the original Metroid, R&D1 did. If you can give me one piece of evidence that he even dislikes second parties, please, I'm waiting to see it. I'm sorry, but you just seem to be talking out of your ass.  |
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Post by nocturnal YL on Sept 1, 2007 13:04:27 GMT -5
Let's see... It's still (add "politically" here if you like) incorrect to say IntSys is not important. I said their games are less important. Which is perfectly true. And they didn't make the original Metroid, R&D1 did. If you can give me one piece of evidence that he even dislikes second parties, please, I'm waiting to see it. I'm sorry, but you just seem to be talking out of your ass. They did. Go check IntSys's site before arguing with me about anything concerning intSys. And although you sound rather offensive for me, you're right. I might be talking chunks of garbage. My initial statement is acually something I think, not anything offensive. If you took that severely, I'm sorry. But then, I have to defend my stance. It's just a thought, not irony statement, and i don't understand why it sounds like offensive to others, Before I get completely mad... Get back to the topic already! I'm not trying to start verbal fights! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2007 13:09:56 GMT -5
I see where you're coming from; I'm neutral on this whole "Sakurai on 2nd Party" issue, but I'll play the devil's advocate this once and ask you something. You want proof that's contrary to Sakurai hating 2nd Parties, but what proof do you have that he does hate 'em? Fry said ages ago that Smash Bros. has always had a fair representation from 2nd Party stuff and proved it with a neat little formula. Can't sit down and pound it out now, but watch this space. Okay, perhaps "hate" is a strong word, but he DOES indeed discard second party developers. Or maybe with those proofs, I coud have been satisfied. Let's put it in another way, perhaps? We see very few Rare stuff there. Camelot? A Waluigi trophy and Peach's Smash Side A. You may say in terms of scale of sales it is right to apportion stuff like that, but obviously some developers get less than their share, Rare being the most obvious one. Camelot hasn't contributed much to Nintendo so far as a second party, which is why it hasn't got much representation. Aside from Golden Sun, which had only one game by the time Melee came out and has not been updated since 2002, Camelot has only worked with Mario spinoff games. Mario is Nintendo's largest and most recognizable franchise--which is why it has the most representatives in Melee and ties with Pokémon in SSB64, so there's a lot of ground to cover. As we've learned and discussed before, 2nd-card stuff (not to be confused with 2nd Party stuff) like Diddy Kong, Falco and Jigglypuff are not nearly as important as things like Donkey Kong, Fox or Pikachu--the real headliners. Giving Waluigi a trophy in Melee, and then giving Peach a golf club/tennis racket move really sums up all of Camelot's non-Golden Sun stuff. In this case there's just not a lot to draw from. As for Rare...well. Between all three SSB games, we've had Donkey Kong as a playable character in all three games, using the base design from the DKC games as his model. Diddy was made by Rare and is a playable character in Brawl. There have been three Rare-based DK stages so far (Kongo Jungle 64, Jungle Japes, Kongo Jungle Melee), at least three Rare items (Barrel Cannon, Cloaking Device, Proximity Mine), one DKC song that has been mixed twice, as well as DK64's DK Rap. Cranky Kong appears in the background of Jungle Japes as a silouhette, and both Melee levels have Klaptraps. Also keep in mind that Krystal from Star Fox was a Rare creation and Sakurai expressed interest in including her for Brawl. Not to mention all the trophies for DKC stuff, plus the Prox Mine and Cloaking Device, and an entire event where you had to face Fox and Falco who were permanently imbued with cloaking power. Not to mention all the Kirby and Pokémon stuff; Pokémon alone had two characters in SSB and four in Melee, tying Mario for the former and Zelda (for second in amount of playable characters) in the latter, and has currently just added one new character, the Pokémon Trainer, to the roster of Brawl, which is equally four different characters. Pokémon also has the most items related to it, with all the Pokéball Pokémon (something like 12 in SSB64, 29 in Melee, and at least 2 new ones in Brawl--and Melee had trophies for all of the Pokéball Monsters plus a lot more). And then there's the fact that Pokémon has had three unique stages and songs so far! Granted--it's not a lot compared to first-party stuff, but it'd be silly to deny that everything above isn't a good percentage off the series' content. Take into account that, as Masa said earlier, a lot of Nintendo's first-party properties have been handled by second parties as of late (Star Fox, Metroid) and there's always the chance we'll see some of that stuff in the games, I think there's not much evidence to really prove Sakurai holds 2nd Parties outside his favor. |
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Post by kirbychu on Sept 1, 2007 13:11:36 GMT -5
They did. Go check IntSys's site before arguing with me about anything concerning intSys. Everywhere I've looked says otherwise... My initial statement is acually something I think, not anything offensive. If you took that severely, I'm sorry. But then, I have to defend my stance. It's just a thought, not irony statement, and i don't understand why it sounds like offensive to others, I'm just really getting sick of all the "Oh look! More proof that Sakurai hates 3rd parties!!1!!1!" every time something first party is revealed. Seriously. It's like the only way you'd be satisfied is if the game was ONLY second party. It's incredibly annoying. |
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Post by nocturnal YL on Sept 1, 2007 13:19:32 GMT -5
kirbychu: www.intsys.co.jp/company/game/index.htmlJust look here. Under the Famicom Disk System heading. And well, I see... that's why I sound irritiating to you? If that's so, I'm sorry. Now to think of it, I DID think like a n00b when I started saying "using original WarioWare means Sakurai hates second party"... Although, seriously, I want to see other games from the series being used instead. Tei: Um, now your explaination sounds much better to me. Although I'm still bothered about the unbalancing amountof characters in Melee (for example, only one character for DK and Kirby?)... EDIT: HAL's stuff aren't exceptionally balancing, anyway... It's useless to say anything after Rare left, anyway. If Sakurai said all these before Rare left, that would sound far more powerful to me. And looks like people simply don't want to get back in topic? |
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Post by Smashchu on Sept 1, 2007 13:24:32 GMT -5
I think we (Tei expecially) made our point. SWe may want to end this before we start a flame war.
YL, I see where your coming from, but it's probobly more percived in your head and not actually true. I assum this smash will cover the lose ends in the existing franchises, and add the much wanted characters. We'll se what happebns in Smash4. I assum we'll get some Golden Sun and maybe some Advance Wars.
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Post by Johans Nidorino on Sept 1, 2007 14:32:54 GMT -5
Wario Land was big enough to make Wario appear even in N64 SSB and SSBM. So if Wario Land, Wario World, or Master of Disguise don't get a SSBB stage, then they might get BGMs or something. Probably even for this stage.
This stage nullifies one idea I had once that the WarioWare bomb could become an item. But I'm really glad for the existence this stage, even though it perhaps deserved to be an unlockable one. The microgames are all the fun in these games, not a fart ^_^
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Post by kirbychu on Sept 1, 2007 14:36:30 GMT -5
I don't remember Wario appearing in the original SSB... Where was he?
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