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Post by Smashchu on May 1, 2008 17:29:20 GMT -5
The late Mr. Molecule left becuase the lack of serious discussion and a move to more casual one, so I thought I'd try to spark some discussion with some new topics.
So the topic is that which Sakurai mentioned on the Dojo.
In one way, it's meaning is direct: it's become hard to make character driven franchises. In another, it's that Nintendo has not been making enough franchises in the recent years.
So it begs the question: is Nintendo just reusing old franchises rather then make new ones? Is there a reason if so? Are they justified in their franchises habits? What do you guys think?
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2008 17:42:30 GMT -5
I've actually been thinking about this for a few weeks now - both due to the quote from the Dojo you brought up, and from what Yahtzee says in his Zero Punctuation game reviews. And since I'm on a time limit, I'll give you the base sum of my thoughts:
I agree, yes, Nintendo is far too dependent on their pre-existing franchises, and that's keeping them from creating anything that's character-driven and new; however, while stunting, this is not necessarily a bad thing as most titles bearing said pre-established franchises are usually good if not better. Of course, the recent string of exceptions - Super Paper Mario, Mario Kart Wii, Yoshi's Island DS, Star Fox Command, all being par games or worse - is nothing to be proud of and maybe it's a sign that times need to change.
Of course, there's also the stuff like Mario Party and Mario sports games, which only exist to exploit Mario and don't really contribute to the gaming frontier in general. Since character-driven franchises was and still is Nintendo's strength, they should build on that by making more. And not just that, though, they should make more while keeping them interesting, innovative and fun.
I remember back before we found out the Wii's official name - back when it was still just "the Revolution." And now, all I can think of is irony, because this generation has been as revolutionary as a wet napkin.
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Post by TV Eye on May 1, 2008 18:04:06 GMT -5
Well, think of it like this. What can be done that hasn't already?  |
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Post by Spud on May 1, 2008 18:09:46 GMT -5
Well, think of it like this. What can be done that hasn't already? Well we've said that for years too. And just when you thought there was no way to get another genre along comes Wario Ware. How about a fantasy style RPG that takes place in an office? Lots of wacky and wonderful stuff hasn't been done yet it's just still in our blind spot. |
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Post by Dances in Undergarments on May 1, 2008 18:35:29 GMT -5
Mario Kart Wii, ... being par games or worse Lol wut? No. Anyway, looking at a game like Mario Galaxy, I really don't see how making it a new franchise rather than a Mario one would be any more beneficial to the game. Sure, you could possibly argue that without 'MARIO' plastered all over the title, the game would have to sell on its own merits, or something, but does it really make a difference? I mean, I'm sure Coca Cola could replace the name 'Coke' with 'Sploogejuice', and sell their drinks that way, so that angry cola fanboys didn't cry about them being carried by established brands, but would it make the drink any better? As long as Nintendo gives us something new (we absolutely definitely don't need another Ocarina of Time clone Zelda game), I don't see why anyone should care what the game is wrapped in. And its just common business sense to use successful franchises where possible. |
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Post by Game Guru on May 1, 2008 19:18:18 GMT -5
Nintendo has been making a decent amount of franchises... it's just hard to see guys like Tom Nook, Dr. Kawasima, Mii, and Nintendog actually fighting. In actuality, considering the Assist Trophies that are more feasible as fighters, only Golden Sun's Isaac and Sin & Punishment's Saki actually exists within the gap that Pikmin is surrounded by, both series being slightly older than Pikmin.
It has actually become harder to make character-driven franchises that are popular and not from an established legacy. However I think much of that seven year gap is because Rare is owned by Microsoft, and Rare created the new IPs in that 5-year gap. I mean, it would've been likely to see Banjo-Kazooie and Joanna Dark as playable characters if it weren't for the fact those franchises are owned by Microsoft now, and both franchises exist within the 5-year gap between Pokemon and Pikmin.
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Post by Manspeed on May 1, 2008 19:35:55 GMT -5
I think Nintendo still has yet to tap into the raw potential that their franchises already hold.
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Post by Fryguy64 on May 2, 2008 3:12:03 GMT -5
What can be done that hasn't already? I prefer to look at it this way: If 30% of games out there feature musclemen, 30% feature space marines and a further 30% feature emo manga characters with mental hair, that leaves a nice little corner of the game character circle for all the cartoon and unorthodox characters. Character-driven gaming isn't like it was back in the 1980s, when gaming was experimental, and neither developers or gamers knew what was going to be good. Even by the 1990s, Nintendo exploited Mario, Donkey Kong, Zelda and (eventually) Pokemon. So as their character-driven game sales have dried up due to a rapidly shrinking user base, they have discovered a new way to make money - Touch Generations, party games and motion control games. Hell, now everyone wants a Nintendo more than ever before - is it any surprise their funds are now shifting towards these types of casual games? But take a look at the Nintendo DS catalogue in Japan - there are masses of brand new character-driven franchises: RPGs, adventure games, puzzle games, and many hybrids of the above. And what about the action franchises? Sure they're not (generally) character driven, but Chosojuu Mecha MG and Jet Impulse look awesome. You want to be asking yourself why Nintendo of America isn't releasing any of these games - not why these games don't exist! |
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Post by Sqrt2 on May 2, 2008 3:26:22 GMT -5
But take a look at the Nintendo DS catalogue in Japan - there are masses of brand new character-driven franchises: RPGs, adventure games, puzzle games, and many hybrids of the above. And what about the action franchises? Sure they're not (generally) character driven, but Chosojuu Mecha MG and Jet Impulse look awesome. You want to be asking yourself why Nintendo of America isn't releasing any of these games - not why these games don't exist! Because they're things Japanese gamers like, and therefore are considered "weird" to western gamers. Notice that America hasn't had a release of Tingle's Freshly-Picked Rosy Rupee Land, probably due to this "weirdness". I'd say that Pokemon is the best example of Nintendo's rehashing - Pearl and Diamond are simply Red and Blue with a few more bells and whistles on to make the whole thing look prettier. |
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Post by Da Robot on May 2, 2008 3:40:32 GMT -5
But take a look at the Nintendo DS catalogue in Japan - there are masses of brand new character-driven franchises: RPGs, adventure games, puzzle games, and many hybrids of the above. And what about the action franchises? Sure they're not (generally) character driven, but Chosojuu Mecha MG and Jet Impulse look awesome. You want to be asking yourself why Nintendo of America isn't releasing any of these games - not why these games don't exist! Because they're things Japanese gamers like, and therefore are considered "weird" to western gamers. Notice that America hasn't had a release of Tingle's Freshly-Picked Rosy Rupee Land, probably due to this "weirdness". You have to remeber back in the day it was way cheaper to make games back then, it also required less people (didn't Miyamoto say you only need a team of 3 to make some games?) Also after reading these impresions, this might be the reason Jet Impulse didn't get released outside of Japan. |
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Post by TV Eye on May 2, 2008 6:39:32 GMT -5
I'd say that Pokemon is the best example of Nintendo's rehashing - Pearl and Diamond are simply Red and Blue with a few more bells and whistles on to make the whole thing look prettier. I'd have to disagree. Anyone who's play Diamond and Pearl can tell you it's almost even a different game series compared to Red and Blue. Umbrella Chronicles is a good example of companies heading in the right direction. They took classic Resident Evil, and made it more House of the Dead like. |
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Post by Dances in Undergarments on May 2, 2008 7:38:27 GMT -5
They already fixed Resident Evil with its 4th installment. They don't need to 'fix' it again.
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Post by TV Eye on May 2, 2008 13:40:41 GMT -5
They already fixed Resident Evil with its 4th installment. They don't need to 'fix' it again. Who said anything about fixing? (Even though technically, they did) |
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Post by Smashchu on May 2, 2008 13:41:04 GMT -5
There are two important things. One is that it's much better in a business sence to reuse franchises then make new ones, and it's not Nintendo doing it but many developers.
As Flip mentioned on another topic, most of these Mario games would otherwise be generic cart or sports games. Nintendo could easily make a whole new franchise for a Gold or Tennis game, but why? Mario sells, and this game might not sell, or be fun, on it's own merits. So add an established franchise and selll it. Nintendo reuses their franchises becuase it makes more money. It was noted in 2004 that most of the top sellers were sequels or continuations and in his 2007 speech at E3 Peter Moore mentioned the top 5 best selling games of the previous generation were Madden and both the Halo games and Grand Theft Auto. All sequels. So Nintendo is doing what is smart. Use Mario and Pokemon becuase they make more money. Not only that but most of these new franchises do as well and are harder to get off the ground. Look at Drill Dozer and Chibi Robo.
The other thing is that it's what companies do. Look at every large company and you'll see they all reuse their old franchises. EA, Ubisoft, Blizzard, Square-Enix, Sega, Bandia Namco. They all continue to use old, established franchises rather then make new ones. Some do it even more then Nintendo (Sega is the best example). Nintendo's problem is they use two opver all the rest:Mario and Pokemon. These games get used in a large amount in comparison to the opther franchises. Fire Emblem, F-Zero and Starfox come out infrequently while Mario and Pokemon have a game out every year.
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Post by Fryguy64 on May 2, 2008 14:11:22 GMT -5
It's exactly the same problem as Nester mentions regularly in the third party forum... We all bemoan the lack of third party titles, and we all bemoan the overuse of certain franchises. But we have nobody to blame but ourselves. Nintendo fans these days have a natural aversion to anything that isn't first party. And they buy Mario and Pokemon games no matter how dire they are. It says something that Nintendo has provided such a consistently excellent catalogue of games in the past, that gamers will put up with mediocre or even poor games and defend them... but won't try out excellent games on the very same system. I'm just as guilty as anyone else. I own a smattering of third party games on all my Nintendo console, but I usually pick them up second hand on the cheap later in the console cycle. Right now, I should own No More Heroes, Bully, and a load of other excellent games on the Wii that are giving third parties a chance on the system... but I haven't bought either of them. I did buy Mario Kart Wii, and as you are all aware I am hugely unimpressed with the game. Or Super Paper Mario - a massive investment of time and boredom. Or Yoshi's Island DS, a buggy raping of my most beloved game. Is this brand loyalty? Yes. I own a Nintendo website. But with each release like this, I lose a little bit of that loyalty. I'm not a family, I live alone, and I'm a devout Nintendo fan. And so my Wii is a gamer's console - not a casual console for non-gamers. That's probably why I have so many VC games  Rant over. |
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