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Post by Sqrt2 on Dec 3, 2008 7:06:33 GMT -5
I was thinking about this for a while... which stages should return in SSB4? The only stages I want to return are the Frigate Orpheon Stage, the FE Castle Siege stage and the Luigi's Mansion stage. All the rest of the stages should be original ideas (save SSB4 versions of the Battlefield/Final Destination). While we're talking about stages, the stage builder needs to return, only this time there shouldn't be such a large buffer zone around each piece. Not to mention being able to have a selection of music (up to say, 5 tracks) on your custom stage, as opposed to just one would be nice. |
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Post by Dances in Undergarments on Dec 3, 2008 7:08:17 GMT -5
uh... since there is no doubt very little work that goes into porting a stage over compared to making a stage from scratch, I'd dare say leaving out returning stages would not net you any more new stages. If you want more variety than the just the no doubt limited stage choices in SSB4, then past stages are a must. Bring in as many as can fit on the disc. Just, as we've said so many times in this forum before, implement them properly into the single player modes.
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Post by Koopaul on Dec 3, 2008 11:13:57 GMT -5
As far as stages go, I'd like there to be stages dedicated to a particular character rather than a series. Like Mario would have his own personal stage to call home but so would Peach and Bowser.
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Post by Boo Destroyer on Dec 3, 2008 13:51:56 GMT -5
Actually, that's what makes Smash stand out from other fighters as well, characters not exactly being lined up with stages. They handle stages the way they did because of their obstacles and other gimmicks and not necessarily to cater to the characters. Another thing regarding stages, the only SSB N64 stage without any flying characters in the background was Hyrule Castle. Would have wanted to see some Poes there... Let's also not forget the way the Animal Crossing series was presented in Brawl. It is basically their way of telling us that there's more to the game than just playable characters.  |
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Post by Arcadenik on Dec 4, 2008 8:26:53 GMT -5
I guess past stages isn't the way to go for SSB4. All-new stages would be a whole lot more fun than replaying on old stages anyway!  Remember my suggested SSB4 roster in this thread? Right, so for my suggested number of 54 stages for SSB4, I think I found a fair balance how many stages each series should have. 6 stages - Mario 4 stages - Donkey Kong, Legend of Zelda, Pokemon 3 stages - Kirby 2 stages - Yoshi, Wario, Metroid, Kid Icarus, Animal Crossing (well, I suggested Animal Crosser), Star Fox, Fire Emblem, Mother 2 stages (with no playable characters) - Super Smash Bros. (Battlefield and Final Destination) 1 stage - Ice Climber, Punch Out, Nazo no Murasamejou, Pikmin, F-Zero, Sin & Punishment, Wars, Game & Watch, Gyromite, Duck Hunt, Captain Rainbow 1 stage (with no playable characters) - Pictochat, Electroplankton, Wii Sports, Nintendo Toys (represented by the Hanafunda card symbol) |
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Post by kirbychu on Dec 4, 2008 8:36:49 GMT -5
uh... since there is no doubt very little work that goes into porting a stage over compared to making a stage from scratch, I'd dare say leaving out returning stages would not net you any more new stages. If you want more variety than the just the no doubt limited stage choices in SSB4, then past stages are a must. Bring in as many as can fit on the disc. Just, as we've said so many times in this forum before, implement them properly into the single player modes. I'm not expecting more new stages in return. But rather than fill the disc up with stages I'm never going to want to play again after spending five years on them, I'd prefer they filled up the extra space with trophies, stickers and music. If I want to play Melee, I'll play Melee. I don't care that I can't use Dedede in Green Greens or whatever, most of the Melee stages have a close-enough Brawl counterpart anyway. |
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Post by Dances in Undergarments on Dec 4, 2008 19:52:15 GMT -5
Fair enough. But for me, I believe anything gameplay related should have more focus than non-gameplay related, 'extra' elements, which is all that trophies, stickers and music are to me. I mean, I certain listen to the music, look at the stickers, and read the trophies, but when it comes down it to it, I'd rather have an actual element that can be used in gameplay (even if its a returning stage) every time.
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Post by Koopaul on Dec 4, 2008 23:34:29 GMT -5
Has anyone posted character changes yet? I'm sure you have but I'll do mine here.
First you need to know I have a philosophy (like I do with everything) on characters.
-They should all be balanced enough that a tier list be non-existent.
-Consider the average player when balancing a character. Meaning that the character can be good even in the hands of a novice.
-Eliminate low situation moves. "Low situation moves" are moves that can only be accomplished under rare/ difficult to set up situations.
Okay here we go!
MARIO
Mario is a very balanced character and easy to master, however as of recent in Brawl his capabilities went down. His general power has been lowered and his attacks have less range than they used to. While his Fireball did obtain a useful stun, it was weakened in range and power. His FLUDD is his major downfall as it has become a low situation move that must be charged and does generally very little. I don't want to get rid of FLUDD, it is a good idea, instead I plan on fixing it to be easier to set up and have greater capabilities.
What needs fixing:
-Restore his general power.
-Restore the power and distance of Mario's Fireball from Melee while still having the stun in Brawl.
-Make FLUDD act similar to Bowser's Fire Breath, where you can continually spray water by holding B but the water range gradually decreases.
DONKEY KONG
He's fantastic in Brawl! He was practically perfected. The only thing that seem to be the trouble is his Giant Punch which has less knock-back than it did. It has as much strength as his forward Smash but takes twice as long to charge, kinda silly to have when you have a move similar that works better. Another thing that doesn't apply to fighting, is that he still makes those fake ape noises instead of a real voice.
What needs fixing:
-Make Giant Punch slightly stronger.
-Give him a real voice, not just noises.
-Change that side Taunt, it sucks.
LINK
Despite his incredible fighting abilities many people dislike Link because of his poor recovery, but there is a simple solution to that problem...
What needs fixing:
-Allow Link to use his tether recovery (Clawshot) after using his B Up. This will give him the extra opportunity to recover if he hasn't already.
SAMUS
While Samus has improved in some areas since Melee she's dropped considerably in other areas. Her Screw Attack is back to its good self, but her aerials have been weakened greatly. Her Bombs were never useful for much and are now even more useless. The Charge Beam has a lot less knock-back which is okay sinse it deals more damage, however the range of the attack is lower making it difficult to hit anyway.
What needs fixing:
-Make her aerials stronger.
-Make her Bombs drop really fast and explode with greater range.
-Restore her Charge Beam range.
YOSHI
Oh god... Yoshi has always been considered a poor character sinse the beginning due to these primary reasons, lacks third jump, and has "low situational" special moves. His specials are not only difficult to pull off, but don't reap the rewards for your efforts. Despite B Up assisting in the recovery department, it's still not good enough to save him like a regular recovery would. His Egg Toss is weaker with less knock-back, so it's not only hard to pull off but not useful either. His strength in Brawl has decreased in some spots, but nothing too critical. His biggest problems are the one he's allways had. Novices will always fail with Yoshi, and Yoshi masters will always fail against other masters. Unless I have something to do about it!
What needs fixing:
-His tongue in the standard special Egg Lay needs to come out faster and needs to be longer. This will increase the chances of landing the move.
-Have his Egg Roll jump up a little when performed in mid-air while having greater horizontal distance while floating. This will make Egg Roll a useful recovery in certain cases.
-Restore power to his Egg Toss, and make the eggs have greater distance and speed.
-Give Yoshi three regular jumps. Have him able to perform an extra jump before the flutter jump. The flutter jump will have to slightly decrease in height however because he will be able to jump TOO high. The three jumps will give him more aerial DISTANCE plus the original height.
KIRBY
Perfect, no mistakes. He's WAY better than he was in Melee. Nothing need to be fixed at all!
PIKACHU
Pikachu is practically perfect as well. They fixed his strength issues from Melee but perhaps went a little overboard. Some of his attacks have become stronger than needed for such a speedy character.
What needs fixing:
-Make Smash attacks ever slightly weaker. Just by a little.
FOX
He's been fixed greatly since Melee. Once too good of a character, his abilities have been balanced out. One problem however is his fall speed which is way too fast.
What needs fixing:
-Make his fall speed less fast.
LUIGI
Luigi is a much better character in Brawl, even better than Mario in certain ways. His differences from his brother have increased and his voice is normal. The only problem is the distance of his Fireball, other than that he's very good. I would have him more distinguished though.
What needs fixing:
-Increase the distance of Fireball.
-Make his aerials different from Mario's.
CAPTAIN FALCON
What went wrong? He went from being too good to being one of the worst! In Melee I wanted him to be lowered but Brawl took it to the extreme. Some people consider him to be the worst character in the game! This is primarily due to the fact that all his attacks can be countered by... well... any attack! The simplest breaze can stop a combo instantly. His moves are a lot weaker and have gained great lag.
What needs fixing:
-Slightly increase his general power.
-Lessen the lag of his moves.
-Increase the range of Falcon Punch slightly.
-Increase the distance of Raptor Boost slightly.
-Give him a "super shield" for certain moves. This will be very important for preventing the cancellation of moves.
NESS
The problem with Ness is that Lucas seems to beat him in the easier-to-handle department. Some of his moves have been weakened while his up air move has increased dramatically. Ness' PK Flash just sucks compared to Lucas' PK Freeze. People also complain about the difficulty to use his recover, which was always an issue.
What needs fixing:
-Have Ness jump higher so people won't always have to resort to PK Thunder recovery.
-Increase the knock-back of certain moves.
-Have PK Flash easier to control but slightly weaker to be fair.
JIGGLYPUFF
Here's one that's always gotten crap. Despite having some really strong moves, Jigglypuff stinks unless your a master. Her running speed is now the slowest in the game, and some of her moves have been weakened. Most notably Rest is a lot weaker although giving a flower was a nice touch. The issue here is that her two special special moves are the at the lowest of all situational moves in the game. It always took amazing skill to pull off Rest. And Sing never worked well unless a character was on the ground, right against you, and with high damage. Good luck! And if you fail to pull them off, then your left extremely vulnerable.
What needs fixing:
-Make her running speed faster again.
-Restore the damage her down throw gave.
-Have her rest attack release a tiny shockwave that gets bigger the more damage Jigglypuff has. At no damage the shockwave is practically non-existent. However, the move gets weaker the bigger the shockwave gets. This way, masters can pull off the super powerful Rest at low damage, and novices can get a semi-powerful Rest to work at high damage.
-Increase in range of Sing and allow opponents to fall asleep in the air. This way the move can work easier, the fighter doesn't have to be practically touching Jigglypuff, and the move has usefulness in the air.
BOWSER
Bowser as a fighter has improved greatly. He is an awesome fighter now and has been fixed to near perfection. However his model still looks awkward, and his voice is still phony sounds.
What needs fixing:
-Make his model even more accurate.
-Give him a real voice, not just noises.
PEACH
Yes! She actually looks like Peach in Brawl, one of my biggest complaints was how she appeared in Melee. While her looks have improved as well as some of the affects of her moves (like hearts appearing) suit her more, she's also been improved in range of certain attacks. She was decent before and slightly better now. However her Final Smash is considered the worst in the game.
What needs fixing:
-Decrease the lag of Vegetables.
-Have other items (like Bomb-Ombs) occasionally drop after her Final Smash.
ZELDA
All the problems with Zelda from Melee have been improved! They must've known all her flaws before and now made her a good character. There's nothing that really needs to be fixed.
SHEIK
Ah thank you. Sheik was way too good before. Thank god they lowered her capabilities, Zelda and Sheik are now almost equal, making the choice of who is better to use entirely up to the player's ability. Again nothing needs to be fixed here, making Zelda/ Sheik one of the best improvements from Melee to Brawl.
ICE CLIMBERS
Another great character that's been upgraded well, no need to discuss this.
MARTH
God did I want to murder him in Melee! He was too good. Well that changed in Brawl, it's amazing what shortening a sword by a little can do! Characters have a better chance against Marth now, the the powerful tip of his sword is more difficult to land than it was. Also his Dancing Blade is easier to perform which makes him better for beginners. His attack combo is slightly slower too, so that better. I'm pretty happy with what was done. Moving on.
FALCO
Close but no cigar... While many of Falco's moves have been de-cloned from Fox, he's still a major copycat. His abilities are good as a fighter but annoying as a character. While his Reflector acts as a completely new move, the rest of his specials aren't that different. One of the biggest complaints is his LANDMASTER! Where an Arwing would have been more appropriate.
What needs fixing:
-Fix the Blaster glitch.
-Give him a Double Blaster like from his Subspace scene. But weaken it to be fair, since it will hit twice.
-Give a wind element to Falco's Up special instead of Fire.
-Change his Final Smash to Arwing.
GANONDORF
HA! What has to be the biggest clone in the game, Ganondorf is a result of time constraints or laziness. While it's more than obvious he should be using his sword, the only thing that separates him from being a slower more powerful Falcon is his Final Smash. Besides being an obvious clone, he's a poor character in many ways. While being one of the most powerful characters in the game, it doesn't make up for his fantastic lag, poor recovery, and near useless speed on ground and in the air.
What needs fixing:
-Give him his damn sword!
-Substitute some of his power for better mobility.
MR. GAME & WATCH
Making a huge improvement since Melee, he still has one small problem... His Final Smash. Hard to control and easy to dodge, the Octopus is weak in power and can be tricked into killing itself. Besides that, Mr. Game & Watch is a core player, with worthy moves. His Up Special has improved as a recovery by giving him a parachute.
What needs fixing:
-Make his Final Smash float in the air instead of falling.
WARIO
While an excellent fighter, Wario has upset many fans by his lack of frames in his movement. Also his small size doesn't make much sense as he should be slightly bigger than Mario. Also because of his small size and being of heavy weight it makes opponents hard to smash him. His Chomp is unsuited although a great move.
What needs fixing:
-Fix his animations to a smoother motion.
-Replace his Chomp with the powerful ground slam from Wario Land: Shake it. This will mish-mash both the Wario of Ware and Wario of Land.
META KNIGHT
Meta Knight is WAY too good. So he's going to be the first character I'll list that needs to be lowered. One of the main reasons for his greatness is his Mach Tornado, which can deal a great amount of damage, easy to control, and can be used as a recovery. The fact that he has amazing recovery options of all sorts make him impossible to kill. Practically no lag is existent, he can scoop up an enemy with great agility and raise their damage flawlessly. It's hard to stop Meta-Knight's moves, like a reverse Captain Falcon, canceling his attacks are hard and attempt to do so often gets you stuck.
What needs fixing:
-Replace Mach Tornado with a Beam Sword charge. Hold B to charge a slash that shots forward as a projectile. Not only will this move be a more traditional Meat Knight move, it will also be easier to avoid.
-Eliminate his ability to curve and control the Drill Rush (B Side) move. It can only go straight forward allowing people to dodge.
-Have his continuous standard A slashes stop sooner.
-Create a slight lag after certain attacks.
PIT
Nearly the most annoying person to fight against, Pit has so many resources it's rediculous. The biggest problem is his side special: Angel Ring which can continuously hit and reflect projectiles. Pit can get on your nerves with cheap shots, like a child who makes up silly rules to make himself a winner, this is Pit.
What needs fixing:
-Decrease arrow speed and distance.
-Eliminate Angel Ring's reflectiveness and have it stop at a certain point.
-Give Mirror Shield a shattering point.
ZERO SUIT SAMUS
The fact that ZSS repeats a lot of her moves is enough for a fixing. Most of her moveset, standard and special included, involves her Plasma Whip. Both her side and up special work the same except at a different angle.
What needs fixing:
-Replace her side special with something more interesting and unique.
-Replace her down special with something more interesting and unique.
-Give her Final Smash more suction power for an easier attack.
OLIMAR
A great character here, but difficult for beginners. The fact that parts of his moveset can be eliminated by killing his Pikmin makes it a struggle for a novice.
What needs fixing:
-Increase Pikmin durability. They won't die after being kicked off of an opponent.
-Have Olimar pluck and throw stones after have all Pikmin in his party, this can be used as Kirby's new copy ability that will be accurately copied.
LUCAS
Because he's a clone in the special and Final Smash department, it makes him a someone desired to be changed.
What needs fixing:
-Change his side, up, and down special. His standard is unique enough on its own to not be changed.
-Change his Final Smash to the desired PK Rock'n!
DIDDY KONG
A pretty flawless character, Diddy's B down is both annoying for opponents and useless due to the creation of a Banana Peel item anyway.
What needs fixing:
-Change his down special.
CHARIZARD
Oddly for a Pokemon know to be air-born, this one does poorly staying in the air. Due to it's fast fall rate the multiple jumps don't give much height.
What needs fixing:
-Make Charizard floatier.
IVYSAUR
Probably the best of the Pokemon Trainers arsenal, Ivysaur doesn't seem to need fixing that I'm aware of.
SQUIRTLE
Squirtle has a similar problem as Mario in the Water Gun department. Fix that and Squirtle should be good.
What needs fixing:
-Make Water Gun act similar to Bowser's Fire Breath, where you can continually spray water by holding B but the water range gradually decreases.
King Dedede
Extremely powerful, a really good character. Waddle Dee attack is much too powerful. He is in fact the heaviest character and a heavy weight with the best recover. A deadly combination.
What needs fixing:
-Make the Waddle Dee throw weaker.
-Make him light to toss off stage.
IKE
Ike is arguably the most abusing character in the game. With incredible range combined with great power it makes Ike impossibly cheap. The easiest character to be good at it doesn't take long for someone to smash opponents from all angles with Ike. Despite his slow speed and low jumps, Ike doesn't need to travel far to smack an opponent with the longest sword in the game. So here's the problem, novices are effortlessly beaten with Ike by other novices. Only masters can best Ike with ease by learning to take advantage of his slow speed. But that's not good enough for me.
What needs fixing:
-Weaken his general power.
-Weaken certain attacks by a lot!
-Speed him up a tad.
-Shorten the sword a bit.
WOLF
Unlike Falco, Wolf feels greatly different from the rest of the Star Fox characters. It also works well for him as he has a balance of advantages and disadvantages. This is enough to keep him the same, except for the excruciating LANDMASTER that seems to keep popping up everywhere.
What needs fixing:
-Change his Final Smash to something else.
LUCARIO
I don't think anything needs to be fixed. A unique character, he replaces Mewtwo and beats him out as a better fighter.
TOON LINK
Toon Link is one of those characters that should be eliminated. One Link is enough! Despite this, he actually handles better than Link himself.
R.O.B.
Despite the complaints of his inclusion and not being a "real Nintendo character" which is not true at all. I welcome and he is a great fighter too. Very flawless, his moves are unique and balanced. I think we can move on now.
SNAKE
W-W-WAY TOO STRONG! This guy is cheap when it comes to strength. Every move comes out with amazing strength effortlessly. Besides that he's good... I guess...
What needs fixing:
-Weaken his general power.
-Weaken certain attacks by a lot!
SONIC
This one is confusing, novices think he's cheap for his speed, but masters say he's pathetic for his easily canceled moves. What to do? I feel as if I change something it will make one side unhappy.
What needs fixing:
-I don't know, but something definitely does.
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Post by Boo Destroyer on Dec 4, 2008 23:54:13 GMT -5
Luigi: Poltergust 3000 or GTFO
Samus & Zero Suit Samus: Switch between the two on the select screen like with Zelda/Sheik and the Pokemon Trainer.
And on another note, does Animal Crossing really need a playable fighter of its own? It was presented very well in Brawl even without one.
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Post by The Qu on Dec 5, 2008 0:55:05 GMT -5
You can switch between Zamus and Samus. Hold the shoulder buttons on the GC controller.
Also, very good and accurate ideas Koopaul!
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Post by Arcadenik on Dec 5, 2008 0:59:09 GMT -5
No, Animal Crossing does not really HAVE to have a playable character in SSB4 but playing as an Animal Crosser would be fun!  Oh, the possibilities! Using the fishing rod to reel in foes like Link's Hookshot and to tether recover. Using the bug-catching net to catch projectiles and after three catches, you release bees like Mr. Game & Watch spills oil (side B). Using the shovel to bury a Pitfall to trap opponents when they walk over it (down B). Using the umbrella to float like Peach (up B) and the slingshot to shoot projectiles (B). Using the axe for his smash attacks! Growing a tree then shaking it to make a beehive drop, then a swarm of angry bees attacks everyone (Final Smash). Plus there are many people who really wanted an Animal Crossing character (especially Tom Nook) in Brawl and still want one in SSB4. So, I figured if not in Brawl, then why not have one in SSB4? Electroplankton and Pictochat were presented very well without playable characters because... well, they don't have characters that could work as viable fighters. Animal Crossing does have the potential to have a viable fighter. R.O.B. got away with it, so why not an Animal Crosser? |
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Post by Boo Destroyer on Dec 5, 2008 1:02:28 GMT -5
His up special should be the Fishing Rod for tethering back onto the stage's edge.
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Post by Arcadenik on Dec 5, 2008 1:15:22 GMT -5
That was my second choice for his up B. Maybe you just hold down the jump button to open the umbrella to float down, not to glide like Meta Knight and Pit and not to float across like Peach, but to fall down slowly as if you're holding the Parasol item from Melee. It sounds pretty fair to me, seeing that the Animal Crosser does not seem like he would jump really high, you know? Plus he's pretty light so that umbrella might help him get back on the stage in addition to his fishing rod (up B). |
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Post by Flip on Dec 5, 2008 16:43:34 GMT -5
Yoshi was insane in Melee, whatchoo talkin' about? I kicked all sorts of ass with the Y'oster in Melee. That said, he is significantly SHITTY in Brawl. Like... he's a joke in that game. I have gotten him back to the point where I can compete with tourney players, but my GOD are his specials useless in this game.
He needs the double jump cancel back. Badly.
His Up B Recovery is cool, but utterly pointless. Let him flutter in midair like Yoshi's Island while he's firing eggs, that way you have "hang time."
The eggs need to go back to the way they were in Melee. They lob far too much in this game and just do not have the knockback anymore. Also, having to smash backwards to throw backwards is BULLSHIT, especially when he could easily throw backwards not only in the last Smashes but his own goddamn game. I could hit ANY target ANY where in Melee. Now I struggle. They completely raped his Egg Toss.
Egg Lay needs to be faster/more reach. I agree. It's better than his grab in a lot of ways, and making it suck at working was not a smart decision.
Why the hell can't Yoshi eat items?!
The Hip Drop is not high priority anymore, and that is bullshit. There are way too many times that I am using that move and somebody bitch slaps me out of there. What the hell happened? He's fucking coming down at you like a missile. You shouldn't be able to counter so easily!
His grabs are weaker in Brawl. They weren't great in Melee, but they did the trick. His Dthrow coupled with a DJC Uair was incredible. Now you can't do that anymore and it pisses me off.
He got LIGHTER. My God, they made him frigging lighter. As if they didn't cripple him enough in this game.
A LOT of his A attacks lost priority. Ugh...
It's almost like they put Yoshi in 64 thinking he was a great idea, then kicked themselves later on realizing they couldn't back out now, you know? He's consistently the worse rated and worse balanced character, and it's insulting. It's like Sakurai and his team don't even try.
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Post by Boo Destroyer on Dec 5, 2008 17:57:23 GMT -5
Having Kirby, Dedede, and Wario eat items seems rather pointless, as it doesn't affect anything very much afterward (other than remove them from the place, but whatever).
And Yoshi's tongue NEEDS to be a tether recovery. It would be priceless to see him hanging down there from his tongue flailing his arms and legs rapidly in desperation.
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Oh, the possibilities! Using the fishing rod to reel in foes like Link's Hookshot and to tether recover. Using the bug-catching net to catch projectiles and after three catches, you release bees like Mr. Game & Watch spills oil (side B). Using the shovel to bury a Pitfall to trap opponents when they walk over it (down B). Using the umbrella to float like Peach (up B) and the slingshot to shoot projectiles (B). Using the axe for his smash attacks! Growing a tree then shaking it to make a beehive drop, then a swarm of angry bees attacks everyone (Final Smash).
