Death of a Fanboy

[Shrikeswind]

Again, there's a problem. Casual gamers are in MASSIVE supply. As you said, the nerds like us, not so much. There's cash in casual, much more than in core, draw your comparisons from last generation. Nintendo doesn't really have a lesson to learn short of "Casual gamers eat this shit up." Nintendo has literally NO reason to care about the core gamers. To their credit, they do give a shit about the nerds, but you have to wonder how much longer they can put up with "Oh my God, no core games wah!" before they say "Screw it. We slave over a hot computer for you day in and day out and you don't give us any respect for it. You want core games, go to someone else. We're done with you." And you know what? If this is how the fans are going to react, I won't blame them for doing it. Rather be casual than emocore.

[Koopaul]

But its not just that. They've doomed the third party for them.

Take a look at this article: gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=114754

I used to agree very little with Sony but I have no choice but to nod my head.

[Shrikeswind]

That's not an argument no matter how you swing it. Dude's point has nothing to do with casual/core. It has to do with third-party sales on the Wii/DS, which STILL is the result of a point we've made a zillion times now: Nintendo isn't dooming anything, it's the self-defeating core gamers who didn't buy on the GCN because they were too busy crying over the Cube's reputation and aren't buying on the Wii because they're too busy looking for diamonds in a shit pile and crying because they can't find one. There are diamonds in the jeweler's, but he's not wiping his ass with them.

[Koopaul]

Well I believe the real reason those games don't sell is because of the marketing image.

Gamers don't have to look THAT hard to find good games. We all know they are out there. Then why do they sell terribly?

Because the people who would like to buy those games don't bother with the Wii.

That's the problem: Why aren't core gamers interested in the Wii?
Answer: Its the image. The Wii has a false reputation as a family party console only. Gamers don't bother with the Wii, hence those games don't sell.

[Shrikeswind]

Bullshit. If you own any system, you're going to bother with it. Nintendo sells explicitly as a gaming system, so if you have one, you HAVE TO have games. It's not like the 360 and the PS3 where they do everything but play the tuba, with them it's like "Hey! Can't find the game for you? Well, we also do..." It's what makes the Wii's casual reputation such a good thing, if it were aimed mostly at the core, it'd be another Cube, which Nintendo wouldn't have been able to do. They went unconventional and pulled ahead. Now we, the core, are crying like babies for lack of games for us because we're so busy crying we don't look. The bullshit "Wii ruined itself with its image" argument falls apart for that very reason: The core is, for the most part, composed of emos. The games would sell INFINITELY better if Wii-owning Nintendorks would stop wallowing in self-pity and play them. Yes, the casual image hurts core sales, but only because the gamers are constantly looking for a reason to bitch. If they weren't, the good core games would sell IN SPITE OF THE IMAGE. FUCK I need a snack.

[Fryguy64]

Wow. Chillax, brah! You're getting very worked up about something you don't have any power to change. I suggest you don't let it get to you.

It is frustrating, sure. You know the old adage that the first step is admitting you have a problem? Nintendo fanboys will never admit that the problem is them, even though it's patently obviously self-evident that it couldn't be anybody else. After all, they're the ones not buying the games that they clearly want!

The argument about what hits the Top 10 isn't exactly relevant though. Let's say a third party releases two games simultaneously, one on the Wii and one on the PS3. Both games sell 300,000 copies in the opening week, which is a decent enough figure. That game is more likely to place higher in the PS3 charts than it is in the Wii charts, for the reason that the Wii has more games that continue to sell in ridiculous number for months and years after release. That "long tail" means that Wii charts don't shift around as dramatically as game sales charts are used to. And if they'd released a game on the DS as well, 300,000 would barely register.

And when it boils down to it, the company made the same amount of money on both consoles, so why does it matter if they chart at all? That's like saying more PS3 games won Golden Joystick awards in 2009, so more resources should be poured into the PS3. It's ridiculous, and (if anything) just shows that Sony is unable to chart on its own console for very long.

Nintendo understands its business strategy very well, but the rest of the industry is still struggling to catch up. Some think their strategy is having a touch screen or motion controls, some think it's targeting the casual market, and many try to replicate these individual things, but they are wrong.

Nintendo is expanding the market, treating unpopular genres (education, utility software, fitness) with the same care and attention as their popular action games, and it has worked extremely well. They have created two simple, yet adaptable, interfaces that have reduced the alienation many older and lapsed gamers felt. They haven't abandoned their core market - far from it. We have had more games targeted at the "hardcore" than we have had since the SNES, but they are interspersed with many popular titles that are targeted at everyone else.

Some third parties get it, and have done well on Nintendo's systems. Many don't get it, and berate its lack of processing power or its casual market because they can't see that it's a decent gaming system that is worth spending a bit of effort on, rather than just porting things to.

List some of the best hardcore games from the PS2, Xbox and Gamecube era, and tell me if any third parties have put that amount of effort into any Wii game. The Wii's processing power is more than capable to run something as huge as GTA: Vice City, something as beautiful as Ico, something as progressive and hardcore as Halo 2, something as expansive as Final Fantasy XII.

There are good "gamer games" on the Wii, but do any third party games match the scope and ambition of the above? Do any third parties actually take the Wii seriously?

This is a complex issue. Perhaps Nintendo should have done more to explain their business plan to third parties, and given them more support when it comes to working with motion controls. Perhaps they could have done a little more work to make the motion controls more responsive, or released more gamer games in the first year (although that would have killed the third party market even faster in my opinion). Maybe they could court more third party publishers, or perhaps have more stringent quality controls on the games released.

Maybe third parties shouldn't have looked at the Wii as a weak console, suitable only for ports and party games, but as an extension of the Gamecube line with motion controls. Much cheaper to develop for than the competition, and in more homes than any console before it. If they'd taken it seriously, then nobody would have made a big deal over "The Conduit", because we already know that much better and much prettier games have already been released on much weaker consoles. Maybe they shouldn't have taken it as read that the runaway success of a casual game means money should be diverted towards more of them, saturating the market with "shovelware".

Or maybe gamers should have gone out and bought more of the good Wii games from third parties and proven that it was a system worth buying games on, so more third parties would see the market as a reliable source of revenue - after all, we managed it for the DS! Maybe gamers shouldn't moan that F-Zero or Star Fox hasn't been released yet, and take a look at what has actually been released. Maybe the minds of gamers are still stuck in the days when they were the only thing keeping Nintendo's console market alive through some tough times, and have an inflated sense of self-importance, even though they are just a customer to a business.

Maybe everyone could have done something different to improve the situation. But Nintendo won't admit it because they're raking in a fortune, third parties won't admit it because in their crazed minds the Wii is some sub-N64 development platform, and gamers won't admit it because of that inflated sense of self-importance.

[Nester the Lark]

Wow, that was a long read.

I'll throw in a few notes.

Feb 19, 2010 6:38:31 GMT -5 Fryguy64 said:

Let's say a third party releases two games simultaneously, one on the Wii and one on the PS3. Both games sell 300,000 copies in the opening week, which is a decent enough figure.

It should be noted that a lot of third parties would kill to have their high profile "core" games sell 300,000 on the Wii in its first week. Most sell well under 100k in a month.

Nintendo's own Punch-out!! Wii sold (if I'm remembering right) around 450,000 (in North America) in its first week. That's a bit low by Nintendo's standards, but it shows the tremendous imbalance between fist and third party sales.

This is a complex issue. Perhaps Nintendo should have done more to explain their business plan to third parties, and given them more support when it comes to working with motion controls. Perhaps they could have done a little more work to make the motion controls more responsive, or released more gamer games in the first year (although that would have killed the third party market even faster in my opinion). Maybe they could court more third party publishers, or perhaps have more stringent quality controls on the games released.

As I recall, Nintendo was very open with third parties about the Wii before its release, at least more so than with previous consoles. Yet, coming off the GameCube, Nintendo was all but irrelevant, and the Wii was such an enigma that it represented risk. Game publishers don't like risk. I can't imagine what more Nintendo could have done under the circumstances.

Nintendo, itself, released a lot of their major franchises between the launch of the system and the end of 2007. Third parties as a whole barely made much of an effort until just last year, but by then, I think it was too little, too late.

Or maybe gamers should have gone out and bought more of the good Wii games from third parties and proven that it was a system worth buying games on, so more third parties would see the market as a reliable source of revenue - after all, we managed it for the DS! Maybe gamers shouldn't moan that F-Zero or Star Fox hasn't been released yet, and take a look at what has actually been released. Maybe the minds of gamers are still stuck in the days when they were the only thing keeping Nintendo's console market alive through some tough times, and have an inflated sense of self-importance, even though they are just a customer to a business.

I think there's still a stigma attached to Nintendo, carried over from previous generations. You buy a Nintendo console for Nintendo's games, and everything else is background noise. Plus, there's the elitist "weaker console = crappy games" mentality that's simply not true, but very dangerous because it's so subliminal.

But let me go back to Mr. Molecule's original post. If I may be so bold as to suggest that his "death of a fanboy" isn't necessarily the result of something Nintendo did wrong. Rather, I think he opened his eyes and finally saw Nintendo for what it always was, and compared to the glorious image he saw through fanboy eyes, the reality was a little disappointing. But I would encourage him not to let the comparison with an unrealistic ideal cloud his view of the Wii as it really is.

There are a lot of great games on the Wii that want to entertain you. Do yourself a favor and let them.

[Koopaul]

Feb 19, 2010 2:06:31 GMT -5 Shrikeswind said:

The core is, for the most part, composed of emos...

No you don't understand the core market is not composed of fanboys who yell on the internet. No they are just as naive as any casual gamer. I KNOW those people I've talked to them. They don't cry or whine because they aren't fans, they are consumers who are interested in core games. And they don't know the Wii has them!

You guys, all of you, don't realize that we are a minority of gamers who go on the internet, read reviews, discuss games and such.

Hardcore gamers are blissfully unaware of what's going on. If you told them, they wouldn't care less... I know because I told them. They get all their info from word of mouth or because their "bro was playing it dude."


@ Fryguy: its not about the charts its about the sales.

Do you realize that MadWorld only sold like around 60k? That's terrible! Were talking about Wii exclusive games here.

When a third party company actually does put that tender loving care into a core game... It doesn't sell! Its not about selling "as good as something" its about selling at all. Which they don't.

And yes they ARE quality titles!

[flamedude]

[Wildcat]

Whoa, calm down, there. No need to try to shove it down our throats, man.

Now, to briefly cover what you're claiming:
You say that we don't understand the core market. Well, you may have a grasp on the core market's behavior where you live, but everywhere else is different. Shrike may know a bunch of core gamers that are as into using the web like we are. I found one of my best friends on the internet before I knew him, and he's a lot like me in that regard, to use a personal example. You're blanketing your argument with your own experiences and passing them off as how the world works, and you can't do that, man.

Point 2 - Sales do matter, and some games have done better than others. The Wii has a ton of garbage, but there's also a ton of quality titles out there. Have many of them sold like they should have? Probably not. But if sales were all that drove the market, we'd never have seen a sequel to No More Heroes. Still did not do all that well, though. Approx. 100,000 copies in the US, 160,000 in Europe (which isn't too bad for there), and less than 50,000 in Japan are not exceptional numbers. UBI Soft ordered double the amount sold for the US, for example. And that's a third party core success story for the Wii!

[Koopaul]

Well we generally tend to have friends that have the same interests/ hobbies as us. Ask someone who isn't your friend... eh never mind that's kinda weird. I just think it makes sense that ignorance dominates. Doesn't it? Maybe that's just me.

Also I do think sales matter. As a result of poor sales many third party developers are pulling away from the Wii. Which is terrible.

Here are some sorry stories:
gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=111165
gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=110180
www.gamesradar.com/f/2009s-best-wii-games-that-died-at-retail/a-2009121492359104082


I don't know what to think, or why exactly this is happening, your guess is as good as mine. But when good games sell like this, don't tell me nothing's wrong. Something is very very wrong.


And its not just third party games, what about Excitebots? What happened there?

[Wildcat]

Ignorance is a terrible thing, that it is. It affects many (if not all) of us someway or another. And everyone is not informed about something. So I don't deny that. But there are plenty of people out there who know how to use the web for gaming news and such. There's hundreds, if not thousands, of gaming forums out there in the US alone. Just a thought.

And aye, Excitebots died a terrible retail death. Wario Land: Shake It! didn't do too hot either. So Nintendo's hardly immune to it, themselves. It's a rather interesting market, the Wii's.

[Koopaul]

Indeed. I don't know what to make of it. Didn't want to come off as an insane ranter though... But there was that whole build up going on here ;D You could see it coming.

The Wii has made me personally happy and provided me with plenty of games I enjoy. So yeah I'm still a big Nintendo lover. Its just this whole market issue.

[Shrikeswind]

To point out, since I've been away from the computer all day, a couple things, mainly highlights since I last posted.

@ Fryguy: I was actually intentionally working myself up to the pinnacle of RAGEOMANIA! so I could make the snack joke, not for any other reason. Though I do stand by the point I made.
@ Koopaul: Right. Emos. Anyone who bitches and moans about something when the reality is quite obviously not something to bitch and moan about is an emo. The reality is there are a significant number of great games directed at us, the core, but the misguided belief is emo: There aren't any, because an ass-load more aren't. Well, yes, an ass-load of Wii games aren't core games, but that doesn't mean the core games don't exist. That's like saying because the Klan exists, the Salvation Army doesn't, or because of Osama bin Laden, there was no Mother Theresa. It's bullshit.

Also, little note Fry, people can be made to admit they have a problem with intelligent words. I've done it once or twice (to the one or two people I know in the real world who have a Wii in the first place, since I'm too much of a spydr to have friends. =P) Problem is, I'm one guy. I can't get an actual percentage of the core to admit to their problem on a global scale simply on that. I can try, but I have to do it online, because like I said, I'm a spydr.

[Fryguy64]

Hmm, what started as a personal revelation has actually turned into a quite interesting debate.

It should be noted that a lot of third parties would kill to have their high profile "core" games sell 300,000 on the Wii in its first week. Most sell well under 100k in a month.

Did Not Research (me, that is). I just plucked a juicy-sounding figure from the air. I should have perhaps aimed for 2k to make the same point. Your next point is valid though - even Punch-Out, which had high sales in the first week, died out almost immediately. I couldn't even find a single copy a mere 2 months after release when I wanted to buy it as a present for my brother.

As I recall, Nintendo was very open with third parties about the Wii before its release, at least more so than with previous consoles.

The biggest complaint you heard from third parties in the first year or two was a lack of support when it came to adapting to the new interface. And that's fair! Nintendo showed off a load of possibilities for the remote, but didn't really put a lot of effort into showing how traditional games could work. I believe the explosion of 2D platformers on the Wii is an extension of this problem, and possibly thanks to the early (but not continued) success of the Virtual Console platform.

Plus, there's the elitist "weaker console = crappy games" mentality that's simply not true, but very dangerous because it's so subliminal.

And yet that didn't kill off the Playstation 2 or the Nintendo DS. While I think what you're saying is true, it's also avoidable with some careful marketing and content selection. Perhaps Nintendo made too much of a deal over the Wii being a low-powered system.

You guys, all of you, don't realize that we are a minority of gamers who go on the internet, read reviews, discuss games and such.

Actually, I do realise this, and have been aware of this since the runaway success of the Playstation 1.

But look at books. There's a difference between a casual reader who might pick up the odd book, and someone who is really into reading, buys books as they come out and has a more critical eye than the average reader (even rarer are those who have a critical eye, but also support progressive literature).

We are the minority of gamers, but we're also the early adopters who drive hardware prices down, and the ones most likely to buy games throughout the year rather than buy one or two a year in the holidays.

The issue is that Nintendo's profit priorities have shifted. On the one hand they make profit from the hardware, in which we are all equal, having bought one Wii each. Then there's the software, and Nintendo makes a lot of money off their cheap-to-produce casual games, while our expensive hardcore "blockbusters" cost a fortune to produce and aren't selling as highly. But we buy more of them and rave about them loudly.

But apparently we don't:

Also I do think sales matter. As a result of poor sales many third party developers are pulling away from the Wii. Which is terrible.

Here are some sorry stories:
gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=111165
gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=110180
www.gamesradar.com/f/2009s-best-w....121492359104082

There really is no explanation for this outside of gamer fault. Have we really become so twisted that we'd rather spend our time moaning on the internet than buying and playing highly recommended third party games?

I hate to bring up Disaster: Day of Crisis, a rather excellent game, but I fear I may be one of about 10 people who has actually played it. Or Another Code R... Can't imagine that did too well. Excite Bots didn't even come out over here... (while the first two are unlike to come out over there thanks to their poor European sales).

So yes, even Nintendo's not immune. Perhaps this expands the debate somewhat.

If gamers have become entirely risk averse, only buying known franchises from trusted developers, then what scope is there for any advancement in the gaming industry? Licensed games will still sell well, thanks to kids being stupid and despite an overwhelming lack of quality. And a handful of casual games will break the mould and become successes.

Now the real question is this: Is this a problem on just the Wii?