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Post by Shrikeswind on Feb 22, 2011 0:54:45 GMT -5
The gimmick would surprise people early on, though. "He picked Ganondorf? Well, trump with speed, Sheik. WAIT HOW THE FUCK'S HE MOVE SO FAST!?" "Hm, Fox. Well, a lightweight'll bounce out of quick attacks, Jigglypuff. OW HOW DID THAT KO ME!?" "Kirby? Well, some power'll kill it, Bowser. WHY WON'T HE DIE!?" If Zoroark's only retaining specials and stats, the illusion could remain until needed, and really, every character has enough animations to enable 4-5 new moves which require, as Johans posits, a launch model, a fall model, an attack model, a Smash attack model, a dodge model, and the effects. Night Burst does not necessarily require much more than a jump for it to work. We, the gamers, could theoretically hack this Zoroark into Brawl right now with relatively minimal effort. Just "Alright, take the aura off Lucario's attacks, reskin him, add five moves, and" the part I'd imagine to be most challenging "program his illusion ability."
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Post by Arcadenik on Feb 22, 2011 21:55:42 GMT -5
I just thought of something... if Zoroark is disguised as Peach, would Zoroark be able to float like Peach does? If Zoroark is disguised as Pit, would Zoroark be able to glide like Pit does? If Zoroark is disguised as Kirby, would Zoroark be able to jump more than three times like Kirby does?
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Post by Shrikeswind on Feb 23, 2011 22:52:37 GMT -5
Possibly. I'd like to see him actually in action in a Stadium game before I made a judgment call there, though. Those birds are always flying in place, so whatever he'd do as, say, Pidgeot, would determine that ability, though I'd suspect he'd be able.
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Post by Johans Nidorino on Feb 24, 2011 0:01:15 GMT -5
In the movie, Zorua was seen flying as a Skiploom. This ability is that mysterious... Like a mystical version of the traits of Ditto. And I guess everything "mystical" gives you a lot of freedom. It's probably better to keep the regular moves as several of you guys have suggested, plus the floating, hopping, fluttering and gliding, which are more or less related to regular moves. Though that also brings the fact that some non-special moves may not exactly be melee attacks, one example being Snake's Smash Attacks (an illusion landmine?). I guess if all else fails, even special moves could be preserved and deemed "illusions". So, the idea might need improvements. I mantain the premise, though, that a Zoroark that isn't able to surprise people is not really Zoroark  And yeah, Teev, moves like those would keep that essence, too. Maybe if they're good enough themselves, the issue of whether disguises are pointless or not is much less relevant. |
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Post by kirbychu on Feb 24, 2011 11:35:24 GMT -5
Possibly. I'd like to see him actually in action in a Stadium game before I made a judgment call there, though. Those birds are always flying in place, so whatever he'd do as, say, Pidgeot, would determine that ability, though I'd suspect he'd be able. Well, Pidgeotto is already flying in place during battle in BW. I'm assuming Zoroark would do the same disguised as it. |
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Post by Shadrio on Feb 24, 2011 14:38:59 GMT -5
Another few things I'd consider is breaking Zoroark's Shield, Environmental Damage and Taking down your own Illusion. I'd make it so that when a disguised Zoroark gets his shield broken, it should "loose concentration" and loose the disguise while stunned, same with being stunned by other methods, like the Deku Nut. Sure, shield rarely break.
Let's consider that Zoroark looses its illusion at 70% (Zoroark's defenses are even weaker in Pokemon than Lucario's, so he should be lighter, IMO). Say a disguised Zoroark is a 67% and then gets burned by Norfair's Lava. The question would be: should the Illusion break because Zoroark passed the 70% mark, or should it follow how the ability works in Pokemon games, in which the Illusion is not broken by Entry Hazards or Weather Effects? I'd go with the latter, making it so only the opponent can directly break the Illusion.
And then how to take down your own Illusion. This would be something like a one way "transformation" (like Samus to ZSSamus), and fully revealing yourself. A way this could be done is either just by plainly Taunting, or some button combination while standing still.
As for the Special attacks, I'd go with something like this:
Up - Substitute (keep it as it is, but also make it so that if the Substitute manages to crash into another foe in midair due to being sent flying, then make it damage the foe it crashed into and disappear)
Neutral - Night Burst (Longer start-up lag on the ground, faster in midair, but weaker)
Side - Faint Attack (same as JN said, but how would it work in midair?)
Down - Foul Play (works like a counter)
As for Sucker Punch, it could work like a Dash Attack and it could even get an effect, like less start up lag if the foe is also doing a Dash attack or an attack with a lot of forward momentum (Fox/Falco's Side Specials or Lucario's Down Special's strike). Other moves considerable for Specials/Noticeable A attacks are:
- Pursuit (Could work as a Dash Attack)
- Night Slash (Could work as an Aerial or a Forward Smash)
- Dark Pulse (Possible Neutral Special, and letting Night Burst be a Final Smash. I'd personally prefer it to look like it does in the Anime)
- Snatch (attack that takes items away from the struck foe, like Link's Bombs, Snake's Grenades or Peach's Turnips)
- Extrasensory (Could be an Up Special, uses Clone images to do the same thing as JN's Substitute, except attack would go right through it, since it's just an image)
Of course, these are just suggestions. I guess the reason Foul play wasn't considered in JN's attack list as it was that it's just another counter attack.
As for the Final Smash... I'm not sure how it could be. What comes to mind is super charging Zoroark with Nasty Plot, Hone Claws and Agility, basically making a Super Tranformation for Zoroark, a la Wario-Man. I didn't consider Swords Dance over Hone Claws because Zoroark can learn Hone Claws by leveling up, and Swords Dance is only accessible to is via TM. Either that, or some invented uber attack, like Lucario's Aura Storm.
EDIT: *looks at post after posting it* Shit, I write a lot when it comes to this topic
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Post by Johans Nidorino on Feb 24, 2011 19:40:29 GMT -5
Good idea, a way to get rid of the illusion by yourself. I guess the reason Foul play wasn't considered in JN's attack list as it was that it's just another counter attack. It was also because it initially seemed too technical to me. But... there's actually nothing wrong with a countering move when you think about it. It'd be great for an illusory Pokémon, whether it's Foul Play or the more counter-like Payback. Or even a blatant copy-paste of Lucario's, Double Team (why not? It's a classic and creates fake copies of the user). |
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Post by Shadrio on Feb 24, 2011 21:23:39 GMT -5
There are two ways I see Foul Play could work like:
1) Pressing Down + B makes Zoroark strike a pose. Getting hit by a physical attack while in that pose makes Zoroark start glowing purple and receives reduced damage and knockback. Pressing Down + B again would make Zoroark unleash an physical attack, with knockback and power similar to the attack it received before. Say Zoroark was hit by a Falcon Punch, Foul Play's strike would be similar to Falcon Punch in terms of damage and knockback. Energetic Projectiles (Like Samus' Charge Shot or Bowser's Flame Breath) would be the bane of this attack, as Zoroark would not absorb the damage and just be a sitting duck.
2) A basic Counter, who's damage output would depend on the attack striking Zoroark while in the Foul Play position. Any Projectile would be deflected away (not back at the projectile's launcher).
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Post by Shrikeswind on Feb 24, 2011 22:56:06 GMT -5
I'd envision it dealing damage and knockback roughly equivalent to what is present on the attack assigned to that button-combo for the opponent and have it a non-illusioned Smash attack, maybe Side-Smash. Against Mario, you'd have an alright attack, on Jigglypuff, it's weak, but Ganondorf would take it like getting hit by a truck. That way, it's true to nature.
And before I get it, Foul Play would have one for Zoroark as well, I'd imagine like against Mario. The attack wouldn't copy elements, being whatever the animation calls for.
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Post by Fryguy64 on Feb 25, 2011 13:44:07 GMT -5
Problem with Ditto (which is minor at worst) is differentiation. I like the idea of an inverted Kirby hat. Imagine how ridiculous Dittodorf would look. Pan up, it's Ganondo--quack. Goofy pink Ganondorf head with a Ditto grin. A bit late to the party, but I can't believe nobody did this...  |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Feb 26, 2011 0:29:14 GMT -5
You win, good sir. You win.
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Post by Shadrio on Feb 26, 2011 22:56:05 GMT -5
*cough*postingthisjusttonotspam*cough*Another idea could be to let Extrasensory be the Up Special and let Substitute be a copy of Lucario's Double Team.*cough*godthatideasucks*cough* Just as Darmanitan said, you win, but not only just "win", but "win the internet" type win... Congrats. But I'm pretty sure that idea could be carried out in another thread (if it were to become a serious idea and not just somethin for "teh lulz"). Surely there's a thread for those type of small things... is there? |
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Post by Johans Nidorino on Mar 5, 2011 23:54:19 GMT -5
Quick minor update following the release of Black and White: the name of Zoroark's shockwave move is called Night Daze in English.
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Post by Arcadenik on May 22, 2011 16:05:07 GMT -5
I came up with a moveset based on Zoroark's movie.
B - Night Gaze
Zoroark's body is surrounded by a crimson aura. He raises his arms and slams them on the ground, releasing an energy force field that damages opponents within its range. This is a charging move. You hold down the B button to charge the aura. The longer you hold the button, the bigger the force field is. The function of this move would be similar to Ike's B move.
Side B - Dark Pulse
Simply press B while you move the control stick forward to have Zoroark shoot a projectile. Zoroark claps its paws together to fire a beam of black energy balls straight ahead. Its effect would be similar to Lucas's Side B move so it has a decent knockback.
Up B - Night Slash
Zoroark's recovery move. Zoroark's claws glow crimson and it slashes the opponent with one of the claws. I think it would be similar to Marth's Up B so you know it moves quickly and hits once. If you sweet spot this move (the glowing claw), it is more powerful with higher knockback.
Down B - Illusion
Zoroark simply transforms into a random Smash character (not the locked secret characters unless you unlock them). Zoroark can do their regular moves, special moves, taunts, gliding, etc. except for their Down B moves and Final Smashes. How does the transformations flow? Like this: 1st transform is a random character. 2nd transform is Zoroark. 3rd transform is another random character. 4th transformation is Zoroark, and so on.
Final Smash - Fateful Encounter
Zoroark randomly transforms into either Raikou, Entei, or Suicune and does the same thing these Legendary Beasts did when they were Pokeball Pokemon in Melee/Brawl, only better! How? You can control these Beasts and do their thing by pressing B.
I know Zoroark cannot canonically transform into different characters and use their special moves but most of the characters in Brawl have moves that they didn't canonically have anyway. I just figured that Zoroark could be the Shang Tsung of Smash. And it would just save the programmers/developers' time by not making new animations for characters who are using Zoroark's specials.
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Post by Boo Destroyer on May 22, 2011 16:11:02 GMT -5
I know Zoroark cannot canonically transform into different characters and use their special moves but most of the characters in Brawl have moves that they didn't canonically have anyway. Gotta remember, "staying true to something" isn't exactly copy-and-paste with it. The most important and notable aspects to them are to be kept intact, yes, but some deviations may have to be made where necessary. Happens in Smash Bros. all the time anyway. This is especially when you'd have to apply certain things to a game of another genre. |
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And yeah, Teev, moves like those would keep that essence, too. Maybe if they're good enough themselves, the issue of whether disguises are pointless or not is much less relevant.
