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Post by Shrikeswind on Dec 24, 2011 2:55:21 GMT -5
1. Where exactly would Link have failed in OoT to produce the pre-OoT timeline split? Remember, if Link hadn't pulled the Master Sword, then Ganon would never have been able to enter the Sacred Realm in the first place, so he would have had to fail as Adult Link. The sages were all awakened, as they were referred to in ALttP's backstory, so does that mean Link failed in the fight against Ganondorf? Surely he'd still be a Legendary Hero if he did all that work and fell in battle? Or did he fail early and Sheik picked up the slack and awoke the sages? Now there's a game I'd like to play... While a fun idea, we can't go with it. If the game has been won, you didn't fail. There's nowhere to fail. Doesn't mean he didn't take his Trident. Thought: The difference between timelines is how many Links are in Hyrule at once while Ruto's in Lord Jabu-Jabu. In the Adult Timeline, it's one, the one saving Ruto. In the Child Timeline, it's two, the one in Jabu-Jabu, the other being this Link, informing the King of Ganondorf's evil intentions, etc. The Sages aren't awakened, but the Zoras and the Gorons have a hero. One Link goes off to Termina, saves it, and lives the rest of his life there. The other stays in Hyrule, setting up for the next set of games, after, of course, imprisoning Ganondorf, entrusting the Gorons with his bow, etc. Skyward Sword Zelda made the Sailcloth. Skyward Sword Link was the Chosen Hero. Stable time-loops. ...Updating my core timeline, I guess. Click here for timeline.Green means Hyrule. Blue means Great Sea. Red means Other. Skyward Sword is treated as Hyrule. |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Dec 26, 2011 16:33:56 GMT -5
There was an update, and it's official, only this one has more detail.  While a fun idea, we can't go with it. If the game has been won, you didn't fail. There's nowhere to fail. What are you talking about? As a response to my critique of the official timeline, I can't work out what you're trying to say. I didn't say anything about failing after the game has been won. Doesn't mean he didn't take his Trident. My point was that Ganon didn't have a Trident to take with him! He obtains a Trident in Four Swords Adventures on the Child Link timeline, but he already has it in A Link to the Past. But he never entered the Sacred Realm on the Child Link timeline, and he's trapped in the Sacred Realm on the Failed timeline... So is it a different Trident in both timelines? Thought: The difference between timelines is how many Links are in Hyrule at once while Ruto's in Lord Jabu-Jabu. In the Adult Timeline, it's one, the one saving Ruto. In the Child Timeline, it's two, the one in Jabu-Jabu, the other being this Link, informing the King of Ganondorf's evil intentions, etc. The Sages aren't awakened, but the Zoras and the Gorons have a hero. One Link goes off to Termina, saves it, and lives the rest of his life there. The other stays in Hyrule, setting up for the next set of games, after, of course, imprisoning Ganondorf, entrusting the Gorons with his bow, etc. There's several problems with this: 1. I'm assuming you mean that the Adult timeline is the original, unaltered timeline, while the Child timeline is rewritten when Link returns. 2. If this is the case, why would there be two Links? Especially when Zelda strongly suggests that Link is being returned to his own childhood, rather than living alongside a paradox-inducing Link working his way through the original timeline. If this happened, then the actions of Link returning to the past would alter the course of the events for the other Link so Ganondorf was never a threat. I would suggest there is only ever one Link at a time on a particular timeline. Any more would create another split timeline. 3. Link doesn't stay in Termina. At the end of the game, it is clearly explained that Link, Epona and the Mask Salesman return to Hyrule. Skyward Sword Zelda made the Sailcloth. Skyward Sword Link was the Chosen Hero. Stable time-loops. When you receive the Sailcloth, the item description (and Zelda) says it was based on the Sailcloth used by Hylia's chosen Hero in ancient times. Besides, that has nothing to do with the timeline split. That's just another potential prequel for a future game. The timeline split is all based around the ending of the game. The present is altered drastically, then Link and Girahim return to the past and completely change the events in the past so the things that occurred in the present day didn't (or rather wouldn't need to) occur at all. It is not a stable time loop - because when Link and Zelda return to the present their timeline is not affected by the events of the final battle. Timeline split, in a way even more massive than the one that occurred in Ocarina. |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Dec 26, 2011 20:50:33 GMT -5
I'm suddenly not sure we're talking about the same thing, so this post is based on the (possibly faulty) idea we are and that it's my stuff we're discussing. I worked too hard on this not to post it. [/img][/quote] I know you say it's the offical timeline, but based on what source? I don't know how else to put it. Where would the split be caused? A failure would cause different events, but creating new timelines requires time to be affected, as in time travel, which is caused by the Ocarina, but not by, say, someone dying, unless the Goddesses turned back time and split the timeline because of the death, which for Link is plausible, but wouldn't you expect that to be accounted for in the game? Here's how my theory explained the Trident: There were, in the Child Timeline, 2 Links, the one sent back seven years (Link 2b, Future Link,) and the one who hadn't touched the Master Sword (Link 2a, Past Link.) Future Link went on to be the Hero of Majora's Mask while Past Link went off to be the Hero of Four Sword Adventures. Four Sword Adventures showed where Ganondorf got the Trident, so if 4SA is after Lord Jabu-Jabu, then there you go. (By the way, this was where I started suspecting we might be discussing different topics.) 1) That's exactly it. 2) Because of Future Link was sent to a time when Past Zelda was still in Hyrule Castle, so Past Link hadn't drawn the Master Sword and been sent to the Sacred Realm yet. It's not like Past Link would just get erased. 3) That was speculation, I'll admit, based on the Carnival cutscene featuring various Links and on the whole endless mode thing. I dunno. Link is also known to a) be Hylia's Chosen Hero and b) go to the ancient times. If I'm right, then Zelda gets to base it on her own design without knowing it. Okay, I'm really gonna need to finish this game, because I'm really confused by what you're saying. Okay, if I'm reading this right, then that actually supports my explanation: If their timeline is not affected by the events of the final battle, then that's EXACTLY why it's a stable time loop: Because that conclusion, where all is as it was during the early game, is reached after the events of the game. One thing all Zelda fans can agree on: This series needs consistent Time Rules. |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Dec 27, 2011 20:20:29 GMT -5
I know you say it's the offical timeline, but based on what source? It's from the official Hyrule Historia, a huge book filled with concept art, development information AND the timeline. The initial translation was carried out by a Korean guy, and it has since been confirmed by various others, and more fully translated by the person who worked on direct translations of the Japanese manuals. This is the official timeline from Nintendo. It's been released. And it mostly makes sense. All other theories are irrelevant, including my own. I don't know how else to put it. Where would the split be caused? A failure would cause different events, but creating new timelines requires time to be affected, as in time travel, which is caused by the Ocarina, but not by, say, someone dying, unless the Goddesses turned back time and split the timeline because of the death, which for Link is plausible, but wouldn't you expect that to be accounted for in the game? All we know is that Link is defeated in the new, third timeline. I have postured for years that a third timeline wasn't just likely, but necessary to fit the pre-OoT games. And here it is. And it works. Perhaps Link died, or he was defeated. I agree that a new timeline wouldn't be created, and if it was then why don't all the other games have arbitrary timeline splits based on success or failure? Perhaps it's because he was the Hero of Time, so his success or failure creature rifts in time. Or perhaps, even though they take place later, the original games actually occurred before the Hero of Time was awoken in the past...  Who knows? But it's the official explanation. Weirder things have happened in the Legend of Zelda. Besides, all the problems with OoT's ending occurring before Link meets Zelda still exist. Link would be trapped in the Temple of Time, and if the Door of Time was removed somehow then what's stopping Ganondorf from waltzing right in if Link and Zelda haven't warned of the dangers yet? I figured I'd answer all three of these points together, as that's not what happens at all. And yes, do beat it, as I'm going to have to spoil some awesome stuff to explain this... At the end of the game, there are two timelines you play in: the past immediately after the sealing of Demise and the raising of Skyloft, and the present where Link has recovered the Triforce and used it to destroy Demise. However, Link then returns to the past to stop Girahim, who breaks the seal and awakens Demise's true form. Link destroys him again, completely eradicating Demise from the world forever. Link then returns to the present where the Triforce and all the changes made to destroy Demise in his sealed form are still there. Link destroyed Demise in the present first, and then in the past (he didn't seal him again - he destroyed him in both). So essentially, the events of the present were not affected by the events of the past, suggesting that the events of the past would have a totally different outcome (as Demise breaking the seal is pretty much the main plot thread of the game, and without that, the adventure wouldn't have even happened). So this says to me that the events of the past would splinter into a new timeline where Demise's legend and curse were still active, but where Hyrule was never established, Link and Zelda remained in Skyloft, and the entire plot of Skyward Sword never happened. Additionally, the Goddess's Hero was chosen DURING the sealing of Demise, so Link returning to ancient times after Demise has been sealed can't be referring to the same Link. Although it would be cool if that were the case. |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Dec 28, 2011 6:15:47 GMT -5
I know you say it's the offical timeline, but based on what source? It's from the official Hyrule Historia, a huge book filled with concept art, development information AND the timeline. The initial translation was carried out by a Korean guy, and it has since been confirmed by various others, and more fully translated by the person who worked on direct translations of the Japanese manuals. This is the official timeline from Nintendo. It's been released. And it mostly makes sense. All other theories are irrelevant, including my own. Official and correct are two different things. Call it blasphemy, but seriously, there are too many logical failures for it to be correct. For the most glaring examples, why is the Trident in multiple timelines if Ganondorf only stole it in one? And when would Link have failed in OoT to create a third timeline? Heck, if being a Hero is genetic, as in LttP, when did OoT Link have a kid to make LttP Link possible? I can't hold valid any timeline theory, official or otherwise, with that many flaws. I'm interested in logical flow of time. That timeline doesn't feature one. I can't imagine why. It makes zero sense. Official or not, in order to work, someone would have to have a method to split the timeline for it to work. The only characters who can play ocarina are Link, Zelda, and Saria. Saria's out because the rift would have to be with Adult Link, and the only time she's in close enough proximity to obtain the Ocarina in that timeframe, she's being held captive. Zelda's possible if Sheik's actually screwing around in the Temples too, so I can see that, but Sheik doesn't seem to be doing anything of the sort. The only character with a vested interest in Ganondorf's defeat who is known to be consistently near Link is Navi, who is entirely too damn small to even hold the Ocarina of Time, let alone play it. Which is why I positioned the ending cutscene while Link was inside Lord Jabu-Jabu, after the two met, but before the Door of Time is opened. I'll come back to this when I've actually reached my own conclusions, but here's the problem: I'm getting conflicting messages on this. On one hand, there's your explanation, where Link destroyed Demise in the Past. On the other, there are other people saying Link imprisoned Demise in the Past. If Demise was destroyed, that would split the timeline. If he was imprisoned, it could, but wouldn't necessarily. But this is backwards in so many ways. If I, in 2012, went back in time to 1920 and shot Adolf Hitler to death before he joined the Nazi Party, 2012 would necessarily change. The events of World War 2 would have been drastically altered, leading to any number of changes. If they didn't, that'd mean that history was wrong, and Hitler wasn't the Fuhrer. See where I'm going with this? If Link killed Demise in the past, then the future would have to be different by definition. So Link must have been the one to seal him, my reasoning explained above. I'll just leave this here. |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Dec 29, 2011 13:31:44 GMT -5
Whoever says Link sealed Demise is pulling your leg. It's quite clear what happens in the game.
I can't argue with you if you refuse to accept the official line. It's the official line. Yes, it's flawed, which is why I started this discussion in the first place. But saying it's flawed and opting for an equally flawed, and unofficial, alternative isn't actually anything to do with the topic of discussion I started, or indeed worthwhile at all now we know the official timeline.
Whether you agree with it, think it's broken or stupid, etc. is irrelevant. It's the official timeline. Essentially, Nintendo has handed it to us and we have to scratch our heads in monkey-like bewilderment.
This is more the kind of discussion I was aiming for. Issues with the official timeline:
1. Presumably Ganondorf stole the Trident in the other, but like I said before, was it stolen from Hyrule or the Dark World? Is it even the same Trident?
2. Arguably, the blood of the knights of Hyrule courses through the veins of the Link line. That doesn't necessarily mean one Link is another's grandchild but they could be distantly related in some way (explaining the family resemblance). If it is supposed to be a genetic lineage, as with the Royal Family of Hyrule, then that does screw up the LttP line.
3. As flawed as this timeline is, I have yet to see another timeline that makes any more sense.
Wrong. What you have described would be a linear cause-effect single-timeline time travel plot, where you are travelling back and forth on one timeline, changing the past to affect the future.
Well, I say wrong. Essentially, what you described would occur if there were no split timeline endings, where changing the past altered the future, which is how the time travel mechanics operate for the majority of the game.
However, the major plot strands don't operate in this way. Major changes made to the past create a split timeline. Link returns to the past to relive his life, changes the course of the future and leads to Twilight Princess. Meanwhile, in the future timeline he left behind, the events of the new timeline don't kick in and shazam The Wind Waker occurs.
So if killing Hitler was a major plot point (which we assume it is) then when you returned to your own time you would discover nothing has changed. Meanwhile, a separate timeline would be created where Hitler is dead and history is changed.
This is the problem with inconsistent rules.
Edit: In Doctor Who, they often refer to "Fixed Points in Time" in order to explain why they can't go stopping every disaster ever. These are usually major events of historical importance. I suppose we could treat events similar to these as the causes of timeline splits. Major events of historical importance changed by a time traveller will result in a split timeline, while less significant changes do not.
Who decides what are considered important historical events? I dunno... A goddess? The sages? Tingle... I dunno!
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Post by Shrikeswind on Dec 29, 2011 14:26:10 GMT -5
Whoever says Link sealed Demise is pulling your leg. It's quite clear what happens in the game. I can't argue with you if you refuse to accept the official line. It's the official line. Yes, it's flawed, which is why I started this discussion in the first place. But saying it's flawed and opting for an equally flawed, and unofficial, alternative isn't actually anything to do with the topic of discussion I started, or indeed worthwhile at all now we know the official timeline. Whether you agree with it, think it's broken or stupid, etc. is irrelevant. It's the official timeline. Essentially, Nintendo has handed it to us and we have to scratch our heads in monkey-like bewilderment. Whether or not it's official is irrelevant. Nintendo changes the timeline every third quarter and this is too flawed a timeline not to change. I have good reason to provide an alternative theory. And it DOES make sense. More than the official one in any case. But now that I know what we're talking about, I'll leave discussing it alone. It's off-topic. I'm under the impression they had intended it be the same Trident. Exactly, and here's the point against it: The Spin Attack does not leave Link's bloodline, as says his Uncle. After LttP, the Spin Attack made an appearance in every game, the Hero of Time learning it through the blessing of a direct servant of the Goddesses (the Great Fairy,) making it the common basis. It's more than family resemblence, it's heirdom. I won't deny that pre-OoT Links have had Spin Attacks themselves, but LttP Link was supposedly descended from a hero in the era of the Imprisoning War. Ganondorf's time. OoT. There's something going on between those two. Except you'd be hopping timelines. If I go back to 1920 and kill Hitler, the instant he's dead I'm on another timeline where he's dead in 1920. Why do I change over to the 1945-death timeline when I return to 2012? |
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Post by Manspeed on Dec 29, 2011 21:27:56 GMT -5
The Spin Attack isn't in Zelda I or II. Why doesn't the Link in those games have it? |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Dec 29, 2011 22:17:13 GMT -5
Whether or not it's official is irrelevant. Nintendo changes the timeline every third quarter and this is too flawed a timeline not to change. I have good reason to provide an alternative theory. And it DOES make sense. More than the official one in any case. But now that I know what we're talking about, I'll leave discussing it alone. It's off-topic. It's not irrelevant, and they don't keep changing it. Every time a new game comes out, everyone scrambles to make the existing timelines fit the new game (often failing). Here we have the first example of the timeline Nintendo has been working to. And ignoring Miyamoto's odd post-OoT blurt-out, this isn't inconsistent with anything that the developers have said since. Yes, it's flawed. All timelines are flawed. I have yet to see a single timeline that could potentially work. But it's official and there we go. This is what we have to work with now. All we know is that Link in ALttP is descended from the line of the knights of Hyrule. Perhaps every Link is a descendent of a knight of Hyrule, rather than a descendent of a past Link. Although I must say it's a little weird to pin a theory on the genetic passing of a sword technique... Because something has been passed down through the family doesn't mean it's passed down genetically, but rather passed on by sword masters descended from the knights... My point being this is already what happens in the OoT split endings. The Wind Waker line where Ganondorf is sealed in the Sacred Realm doesn't then vanish because Child Link goes back and changes the past where Ganondorf ends up in the Twilight Realm. One continues to exist, while the other branches off. In Skyward Sword you could argue the same happens, only Link stays in the world where his actions were carried out (the present) rather than staying in the past where his actions were undone by his new actions... Thus he travels back on his own personal timeline rather than the one he just created. It's not easy to explain. But it's a potential split anyway. And don't get me started on Oracle of Ages! ;D |
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Post by Manspeed on Dec 29, 2011 22:55:36 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Link learns the Spin Attack from Orca in Wind Waker, so no it's not based on genetics. It may be a sacred and ancient technique, but you don't have to be related to Link to know it.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Dec 30, 2011 4:29:30 GMT -5
Whether or not it's official is irrelevant. Nintendo changes the timeline every third quarter and this is too flawed a timeline not to change. I have good reason to provide an alternative theory. And it DOES make sense. More than the official one in any case. But now that I know what we're talking about, I'll leave discussing it alone. It's off-topic. It's not irrelevant, and they don't keep changing it. Every time a new game comes out, everyone scrambles to make the existing timelines fit the new game (often failing). Here we have the first example of the timeline Nintendo has been working to. And ignoring Miyamoto's odd post-OoT blurt-out, this isn't inconsistent with anything that the developers have said since. Yes, it's flawed. All timelines are flawed. I have yet to see a single timeline that could potentially work. But it's official and there we go. This is what we have to work with now. Blurt-outs. Plural. However, this is one position which I will stop discussing, since it's just gonna teeter towards the topically irrelevant. Specifically, of course, the relevance of this timeline's being official. I rearranged the next two paragraphs because I wanted to say the next part first. Maybe it's like a family cookie recipe. "Don't tell anyone, but if you want the sword to start glowing when you do the Spin Attack, you sprinkle moose piss on it." "Seriously Uncle? Moose piss?" "It's magic, Link, I ain't gotta explain shit." On further investigation, you're right. I remembered wrong. I thought his uncle said something along the lines of "This technique does not leave our bloodline," which would mean that LttP Link is OoT Link's descendant. What was actually said was, directly quoted, "I shall teach you one of the secret sword techniques used by the Knights of Hyrule." This means, yeah, Link's just learning a secret move. However, this does not account for this quote from Link's Awakening, who is apparently the same Link. Again, direct quote. "The Whirling Blade technique has been handed down from generation by the family of the hero." This would mean that yes, the Spin Attack (or Whirling Blade, I guess) is, at least as far as Link is aware, a family move, powered by rotation and moose piss. If that's the point you're getting at, I caught on already, but... ...here's the problem. Link did NOT kill Demise in the past. I don't care about spoilers, let's be frank, so I started plowing through looking to see what exactly happens. Here's what I found. Quotes are direct, spoilers whited, Demise and related nouns in red, evidence bold. If something has nothing to do with Demise, it will be glossed. [ Demise casts his curse, then turns into a smog that the Master Sword absorbs.
"I have confirmed the eradication of the demon king. His residual consciousness has been absorbed into the Master Sword...and is now sealed away.[/b]" Fi Cutscene featuring Impa, Zelda, Link, Fi, and Groose. Impa, Zelda, and Groose congratulate Link, Impa further congratulates Groose. Fi appears. "Hylia, Your Grace...Or perhaps you prefer 'Zelda.' It pleases me to know you are safe. ...Master, I must speak with you. Master Link, you have successfully protected the goddess reborn and defeated [/color] Demise, fulfilling your role as the hero of legend. My purpose here is complete. Therefore, I ask you to dissolve our arrangement as master and servant. Drive the sword into the pedestal before you, and I will return to the sword to enter a sleep without end."
Link gasps and looks at Fi. Fi carries on, pretty much repeating that the story's over, it's time to split. She returns to the Master Sword. Link places the Master Sword into the Pedestal. Fi comes back to thank Link, telling him how much she treasured the adventure, etc. Fi then returns to the sword for the last time. Zelda and Impa have a quick discussion on why Impa has to stay behind. It reads as follows.
"What? Impa, why? Come with us!" Zelda
"Zelda, Your Grace, you possess the memories of the goddess. You must understand why that is not possible. I am a being of this age. My place is here." Impa
"I...I know that, but..." Zelda
"You must return to your own time. I will take care of the gate once you have passed through." Impa
"I...can't do that. You and I have been through so much together. I don't want to leave you alone. Please, Impa. Come back with us." Zelda
"Zelda, at the command of the goddess, I passed through the Gate of time. I did so to protect you and aid the fight to prevent the world's destruction. The last remnants of Demise are decaying slowly within the sword. Someone must stay behind to watch over this blade. His spirit must not reawaken. He must never be allowed to threaten the world again.[/b] This is the nature of the task given to my tribe. As a member of the Sheikah, the goddess's chosen guardians, I gladly welcome this duty. Zelda, I shall watch over the Triforce. Its power is too great to leave in the grasp of man. Dependence on its might is an invitation to disaster. When it has served its purpose, it must be secreted away to lay dormant once again...the knowledge of its existence hidden from mortal history. These are the words the goddess spoke to me long ago. I remember them well. As do you, I'm sure." Impa Zelda gives Impa her bracelet (left, for sake of mention.) Impa promises to meet Zelda again someday, then opens the Gate of Time. Link, Zelda, and Groose pass through the Gate of Time, where the Old Woman is revealed to be Old Impa, who then vanishes. Zelda's bracelet is all that remains. Zelda thanks Impa for all she's done, then cut to credits. After the credits, Link and Zelda discuss the future, wherein Zelda tells Link she wants to move down, and asks his plans, which seem to be the same. The End, wanna play again?[/color]] I won't. @_@ |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Dec 30, 2011 7:13:37 GMT -5
Dammit... I was about to say how even if Demise is sealed in a different way, the presence of Sheik means that the events of Skyward Sword would not have happened...
Which throws one massive spanner in my own works... The presence of Sheik...
If the timeline split, as I suggested, then Sheik of the present would have no memory of what transpired, but she does, and has been guarding Demise's remains in the Master Sword since the past. And yet all the other events of Skyward Sword took place in the present Link returns to...
Sheik is a massive paradox...
Eh... A goddess did it... ;D
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Post by kirbychu on Dec 30, 2011 16:25:00 GMT -5
Whoa. I never expected to see an official timeline. That "failure" timeline contains all the games I've always had trouble placing, and everything else except Four Swords + is exactly where I thought it should be anyway, so I'm happy. Except for Oracles being between ALttP and LA, but never mind.  Dammit... I was about to say how even if Demise is sealed in a different way, the presence of Sheik means that the events of Skyward Sword would not have happened... Which throws one massive spanner in my own works... The presence of Sheik... If the timeline split, as I suggested, then Sheik of the present would have no memory of what transpired, but she does, and has been guarding Demise's remains in the Master Sword since the past. And yet all the other events of Skyward Sword took place in the present Link returns to... Sheik is a massive paradox... ...You mean Impa? |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Dec 30, 2011 21:24:52 GMT -5
Err... Yes, I mean Impa.
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Post by kirbychu on Dec 31, 2011 5:35:30 GMT -5
If I remember rightly, Impa was originally from the present, and grew old when she stayed behind at the end of the game guarding the Master Sword, right? It was something like that. I figure people who are travelling through the timestream are capable of remembering what they witnessed previously, like OoT/MM Link.
But I'm very sleepy, so everything I just said is quite likely gibberish.
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Who knows? But it's the official explanation.
