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Post by Fryguy64 on Nov 23, 2011 10:38:00 GMT -5
With the release of Skyward Sword, it's time to hammer this out once again. Time to pick apart the series once more! Be warned, this topic will be Spoiler Heavy with Skyward Sword. Try to avoid posting random game spoilers and focus on key topics. If you don't want to spoil the game's many wonderful surprises, please read no further. First of all I want to establish some golden rules: 1. Check your facts![/url] Use the Zelda Legends text dumps to make sure you have your facts straight. They don't have one for Skyward Sword yet, but there is apparently one floating around. 2. All developer comments, guidebooks and anything else that isn't in the games is now considered non-canonical.Yes, Aonuma or Miyamoto may have said certain things at certain times regarding the timeline. They are now no longer going to be accepted as evidence. The timeline changes with each new instalment and relying on a decade-old comment one made is now off the table. Additionally, only the text from ALttP on GBA is acceptable. The original translation doesn't fit at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Spoilers Below!---------------------------------------------------------------- Topic 1. Ocarina of Time no longer falls between Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess.Skyward Sword clearly establishes itself as the origin story of the Legendary Hero. It features almost identical geography to Twilight Princess, to the point where putting Ocarina of Time between them makes very little sense. The connections to Twilight Princess are too strong. Obviously, the following problem arises (not counting developer comments): All of the references to Ocarina of Time.But wait. Check the Twilight Princess quotes. Not one mention of the Hero of Time, nor any explanation of why Ganondorf was imprisoned. In fact, there are no major storyline connections. But of course, Ganondorf HAD been captured for doing something, and surely Ganondorf's origin was told in OoT? Right? This leads to... Topic 2: Multiple Ganondorfs TheoryIt's always been on the cards. Link is of the bloodline of the Knights of Hyrule, and Zelda is of the bloodline of the Hylian Royal Family. Ganondorf may be part of a bloodline of power-hungry thieves. I wasn't a fan of the idea, and the fact Ganondorf can be revived and seems to have unnaturally long life thanks to the Triforce of Power meant it may have been unnecessary. MAJOR SKYWARD SWORD SPOILER (Hidden)It's now confirmed that there are multiple Ganondorfs. When Demise laid his curse on the Legendary Hero and on Hylia, he stated their descendants would always face one of his incarnations. In short, Demise is reborn as Ganondorf time and again.If TP and OoT Ganondorf are not the same (unlike OoT and TWW which are) then there is no good reason that I can see to place OoT between SS and TP. Discuss. |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Nov 24, 2011 5:42:57 GMT -5
Two points against Ocarina of Time being moved from its current location between SS and TP have been raised by Kirbychu on Twitter...
1. The ruins of the Temple of Time appear in TP.
2. The Fishing Hole Girl is a descendent of OoT's Fishing Hole Guy.
The first of these requires another Skyward Sword Spoiler... The ruins of the Temple of Time also appear in Skyward Sword, although this isn't obvious at first. When the Sky Temple is used to finally seal Demise in the present, it transforms the Sealed Grounds into the Sacred Grove from Twilight Princess... Almost entirely as it appears. The Temple of Time in the present is already in a state of ruin...
The second of these points is valid, but also minor. The Legendary Fishing Hole Owner is clearly a cameo or reference to the one from Ocarina of Time, but then how do we explain the Tingle doll in Skyward Sword? Do we need to? Or is it just a cameo? Maybe it's another Tingle, but then maybe it's just another Fishing Hole Owner (even though that's not the intent of the cameo).
Of course, there's another possibility that will make everybody cry...
Topic 3. Skyward Sword creates another split timeline
Spoiler alert... Link defeated the imprisoned Demise with the Triforce in the present, but used the Temple of Time to destroy Demise's true form in the past, leaving behind the Master Sword before returning to the present. However, upon returning to the present, the temple is still a ruin, still home to the Master Sword, and leads comfortably to Twilight Princess. But what of the past? If Demise was destroyed, then that would have changed the course of events entirely. It could be a good place to put another game, or could even lead to Ocarina of Time...
The best thing about this line of thinking is it allows OoT to once again become the backstory for ALttP as originally intended.
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Post by Fryguy64 on Nov 24, 2011 6:50:21 GMT -5
I realise I'm probably going to be talking to myself for a while until more of you complete Skyward Sword... So you'll just have to make do with my ramblings. Topic 4. Triforce TimelineThe biggest problem with establishing the timeline is that many of the games seem to lead into more than one game. Both Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time suggest they lead into A Link to the Past, for example. We have split timelines, but could timelines converge as well? So if we assume based on what we have that SS could lead to TP or OoT, TP leads most comfortably into ALttP and OoT leads to ALttP and TWW, we can create the following graphic...
SS
/\
/ \
TP---OoT
\ /\
\ / \
ALttP TWW
Starting to look like anything? |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Nov 24, 2011 7:08:36 GMT -5
This seems, sorry to say it, like a crack theory. Geography has historically proven a VERY shaky basis for Zelda theories, and I would not be too quick to dismiss old quotes. In any case...
"Long ago, there existed a kingdom where a golden power lay hidden. It was a prosperous land blessed with green forests, tall mountains, and peace. But one day a man of great evil found the golden power and took it for himself. With its strength at his command, he spread darkness across the kingdom. But then, when all hope had died, and the hour of doom seemed at hand, a young boy clothed in green appeared as if from nowhere. Wielding the blade of evil's bane, he sealed the dark one away and gave the land light. This boy, who traveled through time to save the land, was known as the Hero of Time. The boy's tale was passed down through generations until it became legend. But then, a day came when a fell wind began to blow across the kingdom. The great evil that all thought had been forever sealed away by the hero once again crept forth from the depths of the earth, eager to resume its dark designs. The people believed that the Hero of Time would again come to save them. But the hero did not appear." ~WW
This entire quote says it best: Something happened in between OoT and WW after Ganondorf's defeat, after Link was sent back in time. The relatively recent quote associated with TP, which I can summarize but not quote verbatim, states TP is parallel to WW, on the Child Link timeline.
EDIT: Goddamn it, I hate how my keyboard got me double-ninja'd. Look, I gotta be up for Thanksgiving dinner tomorrow, so I'm just gonna leave that pair of arguments up alone to keep my sanity intact and my ability to wake up as close to unharmed as possible.
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Post by Johans Nidorino on Dec 21, 2011 11:05:49 GMT -5
Not sure if this is the correct thread to post this   |
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Post by Johans Nidorino on Dec 21, 2011 11:17:24 GMT -5
the Link To The Past timeline is based on the assumption that Link failed. Failed to do what? Defeat Ganon? But didn't we do that? Well, Ocarina Of Time was quite hard so perhaps for some people, things move on to Link To The Past No, you silly people. We call the harder story "Master Quest". It was actually Link's incompetency in Master Quest  |
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Post by TV Eye on Dec 21, 2011 14:19:38 GMT -5
Wait, the Oracle series come before Link's Awakening? That doesn't make much sense...
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Post by Johans Nidorino on Dec 21, 2011 14:35:00 GMT -5
Wait, the Oracle series come before Link's Awakening? That doesn't make much sense... Here's one thing that supported that order before the release of the document. Upon completing both games via link-up to receive the 'full' ending, the very last scene shows Link on a raft sailing off into the sunset, waving goodbye to his friends. This may suggest that Link's Awakening takes place immediately after the Oracles series chronologically, although this is inconsistent with the original canon regarding Link's Awakening. Although some cite Link's departure in a boat at the end of the linked Oracle series ending as evidence of a connection to Link's Awakening, the majority of theorists believe that the Oracle series occur as stand-alone events, especially as plot points such as Link meeting Zelda for the first time and Link's apparent age directly contradict A Link to the Past, the known prequel to Link's Awakening (Copied from Zeldapedia) |
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Post by Johans Nidorino on Dec 21, 2011 15:55:06 GMT -5
(People don't seem to know what "prequel" means... *fixes it* ) |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Dec 22, 2011 1:36:02 GMT -5
Until I complete Skyward Sword (due to the Christmas season, I haven't exactly been putting as much into it as I'd like to,) my theory is as follows.
Skyward Sword [is all one stable time loop, as opposed to creating an offshoot timeline. I think we've all heard that Dr. Who quote, "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly...timey-wimey...stuff." In short, cause and effect are not necessarily in that order in a situation where time-travel is involved. For example, if I give a time-traveller a totally sweet bunny that had been rescued from some crappy Nic Cage flick, and it were taken back 26 years, then that rabbit were to be critically involved in a regicide a couple hours prior, then I've caused a past event after said event happened. Ghirahim does exactly this with Zelda, bringing her to a time before Demise had the shit smashed out of him by gigantic fucking Sky Rock to basically use her as a summoning ingredient. Demise's summoning,] if I'm correct, still working it all out, [very well could have been his very first time around. Yeah, Demise is pretty damn useless at doing anything other than explaining real villains who didn't need explaining in the first place].
Ocarina of Time takes place anywhere from 200-400 years after [Skyloft falls]. Once OoT's done, Link is sent back in time, and creates an offshoot timeline, setting up for Majora's Mask. Put about 150 years after these games, and we reach the parallel games of Wind Waker, which takes place after Ocarina of Time, and Twilight Princess, which takes place after Majora's Mask, assuming Termina and Hyrule don't have Narnia Time to each other. So far, Twilight Princess is the only confirmed post-Majora's Mask game, whereas immediately after Wind Waker we get Phantom Hourglass, followed by a 100-year gap before we reach Spirit Tracks.
As for the rest of the series, I'm not certain. My reasons for tying Link to the Past and Link's Awakening have been stated, though not necessarily by me. As for Legend of Zelda, that certainly takes place sometime before Adventure of Link, and is the reason Ganon's dead for the game, but as far as actually binding it to the same Link, I'm not sure. The plots could reasonably take place in any timeframe between each other, so Adventure of Link could very well be a new Link. I do, however, speculate that the Oracle games are directly after Adventure of Link, made plausible by the similar plots of "Kill someone important to resurrect Ganon." These games, due to a) Ganon and b) Hyrule must take place after Ocarina of Time.
Finally, we have the Four Sword series. This is a particuarly strange case, as two of the games could take place anywhere on the timeline, as long as Skyloft doesn't exist yet/anymore. The reasons this is possible? Well, it no Master Sword, no Ganon (he appears at the chronological end of the trilogy,) no references to the plots of the rest of the series, and Hyrule is intact. It's gaiden. It could therefore go anywhere.
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Post by Fryguy64 on Dec 22, 2011 5:04:32 GMT -5
First up, while this timeline has been quoted from the official Hylian History book, or whatever it's called, it's from a single Korean source and I'm still waiting for backup on it. Annoyingly, I want more evidence this is real, even though I totally agree that it's right. In my 2010 abandoned blog post I explained how trying to put the original games anywhere along the Adult or Child timelines wouldn't work any which way. This timeline effectively removes that as an issue. Also, my last two timeline theories (the Fan Theory and Skyward Sword Split Timeline theory) also tried to get around this by creating three or more splits that different games could sit on. The biggest thing is it restores the connection between OoT and ALttP. All timeline theories have bugged me by ignoring this entirely. And it makes sense! The knights and sages of Hyrule sealed Ganon away in ALttP rather than a Legendary Hero, so if Link failed we have to assume others picked up the slack. But it's not without its own problems. 1. Where exactly would Link have failed in OoT to produce the pre-OoT timeline split? Remember, if Link hadn't pulled the Master Sword, then Ganon would never have been able to enter the Sacred Realm in the first place, so he would have had to fail as Adult Link. The sages were all awakened, as they were referred to in ALttP's backstory, so does that mean Link failed in the fight against Ganondorf? Surely he'd still be a Legendary Hero if he did all that work and fell in battle? Or did he fail early and Sheik picked up the slack and awoke the sages? Now there's a game I'd like to play... 2. Why is Four Swords Adventures there, of all places? Seems strange not to have that on the original games timeline. Also, if that's where Ganon acquired the Trident, I assume he acquired it by other means in ALttP? But wasn't he sealed in the Sacred Realm? 3. In Twilight Princess, they refer to the Hero who saved the Gorons and the Zoras. But because this is on the child timeline, this means somewhere before Majora's Mask (or after?) Young Link would have had to go clear those dungeons again. Just a few minor quibbles, and nothing that can't be explained away. As for potential future games, remember there's another altered timeline coming from Skyward Sword now that could be used, and the Twilight Princess line could use some padding. Not to mention pre-Skyward Sword. Yes, I said it. The Sailcloth was given to the Goddess's chosen Hero, so another game could feasibly come earlier. The original sealing of Demise, perhaps? It makes sense so long as you assume it's the same Link in ALttP, the Oracles and LA. He defeats Ganon and retrieves the Triforce, the Triforce sends him to Labrynna and Holodrum to defeat evil, Ganon is resurrected as a mindless beast, he defeats Ganon and at the end sets sail, setting them up for Link's Awakening. The only bit that doesn't make sense is that Zelda introduces herself at the end of the game. Maybe that could just be explained away as for the player's benefit if they haven't played ALttP... Everything else fits together. The comment about their "apparent ages" is nonsense. Their ages aren't specified in canonical materials, and you can't base that on a change in art style. Final thoughtWhich Zelda is the "first Zelda" in Zelda II? The one from Skyward Sword? But didn't her father rule the kingdom with the complete Triforce, which only seems to have happened on the pre-OoT split timeline? If she's from earlier than ALttP, was she buried under the Great Sea in the Wind Waker timeline? Just something to think about... |
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Post by Johans Nidorino on Dec 22, 2011 13:35:58 GMT -5
I guess it could have been Sheik the one who cleared the temples in both the failure and child timelines, with the help of the so-called Knights. I guess a Sheik adventure game or a strategy game could work to cover that part...
Who helped capturing Ganondorf in the Twilight Princess flashback, anyway? I don't remember that dialogue.
Let's also not forget that certain would-be Sages in Young Link's time could have been a useful resistance even though they hadn't "awakened" as Sages, especially Impa.
P.S.: Whether the timeline is true or not, making a failure branch is like "erasing" Ocarina of Time from happening, easily explaining the unawareness of previous games towards OoT and beyond. Smart xD
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Post by The Qu on Dec 22, 2011 15:27:52 GMT -5
My problem with it is it is so obvious that Twilight Princess sets up ALTTP. Look at the Temple of Time, for instance. It's being taken back by nature, setting up why the Master Sword is found in the Lost Woods in ALTTP. It explains more about the Dark World. There is a bunch of little connections between the two. It doesn't make much sense to have them at different branches.
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Post by Fryguy64 on Dec 22, 2011 18:07:32 GMT -5
But it can make sense if you consider they sit side by side as parallels. Twilight Princess doesn't really set up ALttP... play through Skyward Sword and the forest sword connection is no longer obvious.
However, I still think Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess connections are extremely strong, and to stick any games between them makes no sense to me...
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Post by The Qu on Dec 22, 2011 18:16:29 GMT -5
Ah, ok. I haven't played through Skyward Sword yet.
Though, from the perspective of someone who hasn't played SS yet, Ocarina of Time more obviously sets up TP. From the Sages who execute Ganondorf, to building off of Ganon corrupting the Sacred Realm to the general layout of the game.
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