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Post by Koopaul on Dec 31, 2011 7:20:33 GMT -5
Bah the whole Zelda series is one huge paradox!
For example: how come in OoT the guy in the windmill is pissed about the Song of Storms being played when Link never played the song in the past yet? That implies a "it was gonna happen" time travel. But if that was the case why aren't all the Magic Beans already planted? If the windmill guy is pissed off already, why aren't all the beans planted?
Also why does collecting Gold Skulltulas transcend time? Why does breaking the curse in the future also break it in the past?
God I hate time travel in fiction, it never works and just makes things confusing.
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Post by Shadrio on Dec 31, 2011 12:12:57 GMT -5
God I hate time travel in fiction, it never works and just makes things confusing. Basically why I haven't participated in this conversation. That, and the Fryguy-Shrikeswind Wall o' Text&Quotes Wars. *shivers* But if I've got to say something about this topic it's that, in my opinion, releasing an official timeline was a very bad choice. Now developers will have a strict guideline when it comes to making their story and, subsequentially, game. I recall once reading that Gabe Newell once said that there wasn't an official canon timeline for their Half-Life series because they didn't want to limit themselves to something as rigid as a timeline so their developers would have more freedom when making a game, but I'm not completely sure Newell ever said that, since I can't find that interview (or whatever it was). |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Jan 1, 2012 4:06:34 GMT -5
Here's my explanation for a couple of things.
Impa: There really isn't a paradox in this, since it was a stable time loop, as I explained with the whole Demise thing. This game put Impa in two places at once because of the time-travel thing, one young, one old. Young Impa was strictly yet simply obliged by fate to stay behind to guard the Master Sword.
Guru-Guru: The Song of Storms wasn't exactly a new song from an in-universe perspective, and the Ocarina of Time has weird effects. Guru-Guru WAS playing the Song of Storms when Young Link played it for him to no ill effect, and likewise, he played it 7 years later with as little trouble, until Link played it back to him that is. If this theory is correct, then there is no paradox: Guru-Guru hated the song in the future because of a bad event involving the song in the past, and prior to that event, he had no qualms with it whatsoever.
Gold Skulltulas: Maybe Gold Skulltulas operate outside time. I mean, they ARE magic.
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Post by kirbychu on Jan 1, 2012 6:34:21 GMT -5
Guru-Guru's complaining did describe pretty specifically what Link ends up doing to him after hearing it, though. Here's the quote:
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Post by Fryguy64 on Jan 1, 2012 7:03:52 GMT -5
Yeah, the Guruguru Song of Storms is Nintendo playing with a common time travel trope that isn't compatible with the general time travel "rules" that they've set out elsewhere.
Also, I believe Impa said she travelled forward in time on instruction from Hylia to help Zelda, so she's originally from the past. That does mean there's two Impas in the present at the same time.
I don't think we can ever get around the fact that time travel in the Zelda series is there for fantasy funsies, rather than set to some coherent science fiction rules. Time travel occurs in no less than three of the Zelda games, with at least three different time travel "rules" being used in Ocarina of Time alone. Untangling them is impossible.
Thus... A Wizzrobe did it...
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Flint
Bubbles
Im the one and only FLINT
Posts: 482
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Post by Flint on Jan 1, 2012 13:37:18 GMT -5
Four Zelda games had time travel Ocarina, Oracle of ages, Mojoras Mask and now Skyward sword (and now that I remember, I found time travel in Oracle of ages quite weak, Why altering the past would turn people into stone on the future)
Anyway, I really liked how SS sent precedents for many things on the Zelda series:
-The golden force that Vatti tried to estract from Zelda, we can now assume was Hylia spirit
-Skyloft remains on the sky so it can be visited in the future with the Widtribe (Future skyloftians) when its infested by Occa (you can even claim the clawshots you find are the same from this game)
-Levias is either related to the wind fish and the ocean king or they all could be the same.
-and all the item/place references to minish cap to the point that if you call this link Gustav you have a pretty accurate prequel to Minish cap.
Now, did anyone else got the vie that Groose its the ancestor of the gerudos?
P.D. this is not the first Zelda game as Tingle Rosy Rupeland obviously takes place before
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Post by Shrikeswind on Jan 1, 2012 18:56:20 GMT -5
Now, did anyone else got the vie that Groose its the ancestor of the gerudos? Not me. The red hair and yellow eyes are pretty interesting, but Groose is entirely too masculine to found an all-female race. |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Jan 1, 2012 20:00:39 GMT -5
I honestly thought, for the first half of the game, Ghirahim or Demise would take control of Groose at the end and he would become the first "Ganondorf".
I'm actually glad that didn't happen, as what they did with the character was awesome. I'm not used to Nintendo characters getting interesting story arcs...
But I guess that means I saw something of Ganondorf (and thus the Gerudo) in him. Maybe the heavy-set body, red hair and being a selfish jerk helped a little. I don't think it's the case, but I can definitely see where you're coming from.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Jan 1, 2012 22:51:36 GMT -5
Guru-Guru's complaining did describe pretty specifically what Link ends up doing to him after hearing it, though. Here's the quote: It's not really contradictory to the idea that Guru-Guru already knew it when Young Link took it back to him, though. I'll break it down. Brown is Guru-Guru. I'll never forget what happened on that day, seven years ago!No, of course not. Tragedies tend not to be soon forgotten. It's all that Ocarina kid's fault!Yeah, ultimately it was. Next time he comes around here, I'm gonna mess him up.Sure you will. What?! You've got an ocarina!! What the heck!Well, yeah. They don't seem to be rare. That reminds me of that time, seven years ago!That time some Ocarina kid pissed you off, now? Back then a mean kid...Yup, called it. ...came here and played a strange song.Now, by strange, do you mean the song was unfamiliar to you, or that it was simply odd and/or notable in some way? It messed up this windmill!Well, that's certainly pretty odd and/or notable. I'll never forget this song!Learn the song, wreck the windmill. Then bug him again. Oh no! A storm again!! You played the Ocarina again, didn't you!!I might have? Anyways, throughout that conversation, there's no indication he specifically LEARNED the song from Link except that he will never forget it (which can be explained away as a traumatic imprint, like how when someone pukes something up, they never want to eat it again,) and that the song is strange (and really, you played a song that screwed with the weather. How is that not strange?) I will be checking Past Guru-Guru's conversation to see if that shoots this down, but if I'm not mistaken, all he says there amounts to "The Windmill's going too fast!" after you play it. |
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Post by kirbychu on Jan 2, 2012 6:12:30 GMT -5
Oh, I didn't think anybody was implying he learned the song from Link, were they? I wasn't. Maybe I just misread the conversation.
I thought the point was that Guru-Guru knew what had happened before Link had actually done it, thus breaking the alternate timeline theory of time travel.
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Post by Nester the Lark on Jan 2, 2012 18:21:33 GMT -5
And now, here's an even newer version of the Zelda timeline! I theorize that an Octorock was served for dinner.  Actually, I'm kinda wondering, now that there's an official timeline, if Nintendo will ever create a Zelda game that re-converges any of the split timelines. (Or if they make a game that inexplicably takes place after such an event, it would play havoc with what everyone thinks they know about the official timeline! I hope Nintendo does that just to troll everyone. ;D ) |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Jan 2, 2012 20:12:05 GMT -5
I theorize that an Octorock was served for dinner. There is no time! Your sword is enough! I don't think Nintendo is above trolling their fans, especially with the Zelda timeline. It's like a stick they poke everyone with from time to time. For funsies. |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Jan 3, 2012 2:03:10 GMT -5
Oh, I didn't think anybody was implying he learned the song from Link, were they? I wasn't. Maybe I just misread the conversation. I thought the point was that Guru-Guru knew what had happened before Link had actually done it, thus breaking the alternate timeline theory of time travel. Ah. Well, that's not really a paradox since it was after Link had done it, at least in Guru-Guru's past. I theorize that an Octorock was served for dinner. There is no time! Your sword is enough! I don't think Nintendo is above trolling their fans, especially with the Zelda timeline. It's like a stick they poke everyone with from time to time. For funsies. Now THIS I can agree with. If there were any other explanation, there wouldn't be Timeline arguments. |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Jan 12, 2012 22:11:08 GMT -5
Double-post, sorry.
Okay, I'm starting to get over my initial hostility to the 3-part timeline idea, and I think I have an idea as to how it would work.
After the battle with Beast Ganon in OoT, the timeline splits. Duh. Because Zelda played the Ocarina of Time. Duh. The thing I've realized is that this is regardless of whether Link wins or not. The events leading to the timeline split would be as follows.
Link goes on to challenge Ganondorf and beats him. Ganondorf tears down his tower, forcing Link and Zelda to leave. Ganondorf comes out of the rubble, transforming into Ganon and knocking the Master Sword out of Link's hand. Link goes to battle him with what he's got. This is the window, during the battle with Ganon. If you fail, Zelda, being an on-hand ocarinist available to whip time back in Link's absence, can split the timeline. This would have to take place either before Link gets the Master Sword back or before you deliver the final blow, as these are Zelda's biggest moment in that battle, where she helped Link the most. When exactly did she rewind to? Good question, you should ask her. It's gotta be one of those points, though. In the new, revised timeline, Link wins, leading to the second split on Zelda's chronology. Zelda sends Link back in time, leading to the Wind Waker. Meanwhile, Link is sent back to his youth, where he warns the Royal Family about Ganondorf, leading to Twilight Princess.
I'm still trying to work around a couple of other issues, though. A big one is that Link had the Master Sword after being sent back, then went to warn the Royal Family about Ganondorf, who should have already attacked. Where on the timeline did Link go?
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Post by Nester the Lark on Jan 13, 2012 18:40:55 GMT -5
All right, super nerdy question since it's not really canonical, but just something that occurred to me. Can it be assumed that Link's adventure in Soul Calibur II takes place in the child era timeline after Majora's Mask? It seems to be clear that it's Ocarina Link, and since he disappears from the adult era (having been sent back in time), it must be young Link after growing up. I could believe that Soul Calibur Link would go on to teach Twilight Link all those secret sword techniques. Besides, if we figure out how Soul Calibur works into the Zelda timeline, then we can squeeze the entire Star Wars franchise in there, too. |
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