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Post by TV Eye on Aug 20, 2012 19:22:40 GMT -5
I'm not the biggest Nintendo fan. I'll play and usually enjoy the games, but I'm not gonna let blind fanboyism prevent me from seeing the many flaws in these games. I've previously stated what I hate about Mario Kart. That got plenty of discussion going on this empty forum. Now it's time for me to explicitly state why I can't stand the NSMB franchise. Any regular member knows that I've badmouthed this lazy series in the past. Lemme go into some more detail. The CharactersYes, I know. This one is pretty pedantic. This isn't Sonic the Hedgehog after all. The characters shouldn't matter! The first game was just Mario. Beat the game 100% however, and you get Luigi! Awesome! It's just a costume change, so it's really not that big of a deal, but it's something different. Something new. A trophy. Then New Super Mario Bros Wii bragged about it's multiplayer. More characters! More...Toads. And not even THE Toad. Just...Toads. This upsets me. Even if the characters are nothing but aesthetic, it's almost like Nintendo though, "Let's see...Mario and Luigi! That's good, let's crank out this bitch." "Naw man...the Wii can have up to FOUR players! Smash Bros did that and everyone likes Smash Bros!" "Huh, you're right...they probably don't care bout the characters and only play it because of the multiplayer. Let's just put in some dumbfuck extras and call it a day." The Level DesignI'm not gonna state again what I've already done in the past about how all the levels are the same in every NSMB. No, instead I'm gonna bring up a little...observation for you. New Super Mario Bros was essentially a recreation of the original game but with a modern twist. New Super Mario Bros Wii decided to go for a more Super Mario World vibe except... This is a map of NSMB for the DS.This is the map in NSMBWii.And THIS is the map of Super Mario World.Super Mario World had secret paths which would lead to a whole set of new levels. NSMB just separates everything with a boss. And three big coins in every level. Don't you miss the days where after you beat Bowser, you find out there's a whole new world to complete? And when you beat that you get ANOTHER new world with increasingly difficult levels? NSMB is the same goddamn thing over and over. Beat the game? CONGLATURATION. YOU WIN HIGHEST HONOR. I also just found out that NSMB 2 brought back secret worlds! Except, wait. There are only six regular worlds so nothing's really secret. You're back to just 8 or 9 worlds. The MusicHow many times is Nintendo going to reuse the same music? WE GET IT NINTENDO. It's cute. But I'm goddamn sick of all the bahs. Is Koji Kondo even still doing anything? Yeah. I'm sick of these games. |
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Post by Boo Destroyer on Aug 20, 2012 22:39:23 GMT -5
You forgot to mention that the use of "New" in the name is too ironic for its own good.
Reznor's BACK. The Koopalings are BACK. Even the raccoon leaf is BACK. How can they be "New" if almost everything in there just keeps coming BACK?
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Post by kirbychu on Aug 21, 2012 5:07:19 GMT -5
Super Mario World had secret paths which would lead to a whole set of new levels. NSMB just separates everything with a boss. And three big coins in every level. Don't you miss the days where after you beat Bowser, you find out there's a whole new world to complete? And when you beat that you get ANOTHER new world with increasingly difficult levels? NSMB is the same goddamn thing over and over. Beat the game? CONGLATURATION. YOU WIN HIGHEST HONOR. Guessing you didn't play very far in NSMBWii... It actually did do all those things. There were no branching paths in world 1 (there weren't in SMW either), but there were loads in later worlds. There was also a secret rainbow world of crazy hard stages you can access after the final boss, like SMW's Special World. You just compared a quarter of NSMBW's world 1 map to ALL WORLDS of SMW. Of course it's going to look sparse.  I agree with everything else you said, and I doubt I'm going to get NSMB2, but fair's fair... NSMB and SMBWii are going to look identical if you just take into account the teeny tiny section of the game that was the same. Once you get beyond the world 1 map screen the level design is about as similar as SMB3 was to SMW. You forgot to mention that the use of "New" in the name is too ironic for its own good. Reznor's BACK. The Koopalings are BACK. Even the raccoon leaf is BACK. How can they be "New" if almost everything in there just keeps coming BACK? I took it the opposite way. It's not New Super Mario Bros., it's New Super Mario Bros., if you get my meaning. |
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Post by Dances in Undergarments on Aug 21, 2012 8:38:56 GMT -5
It kind of struck me as odd that Nintendo didn't take the opportunity to make two new characters for NSMB Wii, just because it would've been a good chance to come up with a couple of new faces to shove into Kart / Party / whatever. Does it actually bother me? No, because why should it? It makes absolutely no difference to the game itself, so who cares? Also, in my mind, my man Blue Toad (or Bload) is a badass motherfucker out to take revenge on Bowser after he murdered his mother in cold blood, and to once he rescues Peach he's gonna fuck her, Daisy, Rosalina, Pauline, Toadette and Wendy Koopa while he forces Mario, Luigi, lame old Yellow Toad and Bowser to watch, so he's actually the greatest character ever. So anyway I forget what we were talking about.
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Post by Fryguy64 on Aug 21, 2012 9:54:59 GMT -5
As I recently said in my Super Paper Mario review, Mario games aren't about characters or plots, but about the platforming, the game!
It's an old-school choice that Nintendo has dedicated itself to. They understand that nobody played Super Mario Bros. because they gave a crap about Mario or Peach or Toad, but because BOING! Whee! Bweep! Flagpole! HOLE! Dead!
People wanted to get their hands on Super Mario Bros. 3 because SHIT it's a new Mario game! It's like the first one, but you can go anywhere like in the second one! And you can fly now! Whee!
Then Super Mario World came out and it was like the third one, only now instead of a tail you had a cape! And you could ride a dinosaur! And the levels are bigger! Truly a new age!
Then after a HUGE gap, New Super Mario Bros. came out and "It's like all of the old ones put together, only now you can do some of the 3D game moves! And new items!"
Then New Super Mario Bros. Wii came out and "It's like New Super Mario Bros., only now you've got four players, and Yoshi's back and you have new power-ups and damn these giant rotating block levels are HUGE!"
Then New Super Mario Bros. 2 came out... I hope you see where I'm going with this...
The series is iterative. It has been since the very beginning. Each new one builds on everything that came before, but throws in a few new ideas of its own. Then the next one comes out and incorporates the last game, adding a few more, and so on.
Yes, I agree that reusing the same music is a bit rolleyes, but it at least complements the game, the graphics are superb, and the gameplay is as pure and solid as it has ever been.
If you remove childlike wonder / nostalgia from the picture, there is no argument that can be levelled against the series that couldn't equally be levelled against the non-New Super Mario Bros. games.
They all seem the same, but they're all iterative. It's a safe bet for Nintendo, but they're not devoid of new elements.
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Post by nocturnal YL on Aug 21, 2012 10:07:51 GMT -5
Characters? Let me see, Luigi isn't an unlockable in New SMB DS, the button combo for using him (File select --> L+R+A) is right there all the time and you can use him from the beginning if you know how to.
And it's actually disappointing to me that I have to beat the game to learn the secret that's already there, and it's for unlocking Luigi - something that's not hidden in earlier games like SMA2 and SMA4.
I can see both the goods and bads about using Toads. Mario and Luigi, and who's after that? Despite what Shiggy talked about, dress physics and farting is not why they didn't bother with further characters. They used Toad because he plays and looks like Mario. And why blue and yellow? Because they compliment red and green as the four main colours humans perceive. You know this thing about Nintendo - function over form when it comes to design. This is good and bad at the same time: it works for people who don't know or care about Mario characters, and at the same time it makes the NSMB team look lazy.
kirbychu has pretty much pointed out the problems of your statement on levels.
Music-wise, I absolutely agree with you. Why are they reusing the music? Why is the music of New SMB 2 exactly identical to those of Wii (and added an extra layer of annoyance), to the point that I can guess exactly what music will play as I watch gameplay vids?
I've played the DS and Wii versions. Those have their merits (revival of Mario, multiplayer Mario with interesting level designs), but since New SMB 2 is doing the same thing from those gameplay vids I've seen on YouTube, I'll pass.
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Post by mrmolecule on Aug 21, 2012 13:27:03 GMT -5
Just as NSMB was an expanded re-telling of SMB (Bowser steals Peach!), I wish NSMB2 would be an expanded re-telling of SMB2, with the same play concepts, just expanded. But SMB2 wasn't even a real Mario game, it was originally Doki Doki Panic or something. Bummer.
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Post by Fryguy64 on Aug 21, 2012 19:25:52 GMT -5
I find it interesting that this discussion is now going on at the same time as the Game Grumps are really getting stuck in to tearing NSMBWii apart. I must admit I felt the early stages of NSMB and NSMBWii to be a little lacking, but as both games progressed I found myself getting more and more into them. Perhaps people who can't play the games at all will replay those same first few levels over and over and get to know them well. Like we did back on the NES and SNES. Their other major complaint seems to be that the games lack "soul". I'm still not sure what this means. I will return when they're a bit clearer on it  |
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Post by Nester the Lark on Aug 21, 2012 19:37:48 GMT -5
Their other major complaint seems to be that the games lack "soul". I'm still not sure what this means. I will return when they're a bit clearer on it Oh, come on. You can't tell me you played all the way thru an NSMB game without thinking, "This game needs more Aretha Franklin." |
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Post by TV Eye on Aug 21, 2012 20:40:22 GMT -5
I don't understand...I don't consider a few dumb powerups as adding anything spectacular to the game. Ice flower? Yeah, I wanna pick up my enemy after hitting them. Coin Fire? Fuck this.
SMB3 added flying which was really fucking awesome.
Super Mario World added Yoshi (and the different powered Yoshi's as well to unlock) and that was really fucking awesome.
I will give NSMB:DS credit, the addition of ground pound and wall jump was fantastic. But NSMB just brought back all the old stuff. Same with the other ones.
As for branching levels, it's not the same. I used the entire Super Mario World map as an example because it wasn't just a straight line like NSMB's map is.
Also, I fucking hate multiplayer games. Nothing's worse than having to find a friend in order to get the full experience of a game.
Bleh, I'm just a pessimistic asshole. NSMB is just a re-hash of everyting I've seen before and not enough substantial changes to warrant me buying a new one after the first game on DS.
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Post by Koopaul on Aug 21, 2012 20:52:14 GMT -5
I also hate how everything (even 3D Land) has to end with a Flagpole. Really? Why? Can't come up with a new way to end a level?
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Post by Da Robot on Aug 21, 2012 23:36:58 GMT -5
I also hate how everything (even 3D Land) has to end with a Flagpole. Really? Why? Can't come up with a new way to end a level? How about what Super Mario Land 1 did? (Starts at 1:34) I know it's not really on the subject, but does anyone else feel like they should have had: - Wario and Waluigi in NSMB Wii - Wario in NSMB 2 (From what I'm heard he aint in there) - Space Alien Tatanga (from SML 1) in any of the Super Mario Galaxy games. |
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Post by TV Eye on Aug 22, 2012 0:45:51 GMT -5
I know it's not really on the subject, but does anyone else feel like they should have had: - Wario and Waluigi in NSMB Wii - Wario in NSMB 2 (From what I'm heard he aint in there) - Space Alien Tatanga (from SML 1) in any of the Super Mario Galaxy games. It's like Nintendo hates to acknowledge other peoples' creations. Sakamoto did the same thing in Other M by neglecting the canon that the Prime games established. |
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Post by Shadrio on Aug 22, 2012 1:01:22 GMT -5
I pretty much agree with what's been said, mainly double toads for the Wii version since it just feels very lazy and the music.
I will say I loved the DS version because it was new and portable, plus I had a fuckton of time during my school years. I always felt like I was having fun during NSMBW, but it always felt like it was lacking a soul (just as Game Groomps said). Plus, playing the game alone because I didn't have the time to organize time with my friends to play (I've been trying to get my uni friends together for over 1.5 years just to play Brawl) really killed that experience.
I'd be all over this series if it would just take bolder steps, but everything feels too safe. My money'll go to something that I know will wow me.
As for games having a soul, I guess I could just reference Chrono Trigger or Kid Icarus: Uprising, but the genres are a bit too different. Let's just say few worlds wow me, since I've already seen it somewhere else (the DS version was forgivable, since there hadn't been a 2D mario game in quite a while) and everything feels insipid. Super Mario World, on the other hand, feels fresh even after all these years (Crud, now I want to play it). I guess its a presentation issue, at least for me. Simple things like better music and visuals would fix it up, which is why I'm much more interested in Rayman Legends than I am of NSMBU.
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Post by Dances in Undergarments on Aug 22, 2012 5:02:28 GMT -5
I don't understand...I don't consider a few dumb powerups as adding anything spectacular to the game. Ice flower? Yeah, I wanna pick up my enemy after hitting them. Coin Fire? Fuck this. SMB3 added flying which was really fucking awesome. Super Mario World added Yoshi (and the different powered Yoshi's as well to unlock) and that was really fucking awesome. I will give NSMB:DS credit, the addition of ground pound and wall jump was fantastic. But NSMB just brought back all the old stuff. Same with the other ones. As for branching levels, it's not the same. I used the entire Super Mario World map as an example because it wasn't just a straight line like NSMB's map is. Also, I fucking hate multiplayer games. Nothing's worse than having to find a friend in order to get the full experience of a game. Bleh, I'm just a pessimistic asshole. NSMB is just a re-hash of everyting I've seen before and not enough substantial changes to warrant me buying a new one after the first game on DS. You can't just shoot down multiplayer as not being a major addition to the series because you don't like it, though. The changes to the way you play NSMBWii are bigger than the changes between other versions because of it. Side note, how can you hate multiplayer games? Nothing's better than playing through a game with some friends sitting next to you. |
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