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Post by kirbychu on Dec 29, 2015 9:06:01 GMT -5
Because Fire Emblem is like Pokémon in the sense that it has a massive cast of characters to choose from, with the added bonus of IS lacking TPC's merciless bureaucracy. You say that like every other series has exhausted its options. I would've taken a 3rd Metroid or Star Fox character over a 6th Fire Emblem one, especially when half of those FE ones are clones already anyway. A 6th Zelda one would be better too (more Fire Emblem than Zelda? That's insane as fuck, yo). But more than anything I would've taken something like Inkling or Chibi Robo. It's really weird to me that they didn't go with either of those what with the pushes those series got recently. The amount of Fire Emblem in this game really has gotten out of hand, but I still don't understand why anyone would be surprised at Mario always getting the most. It always will. Mario is Nintendo. There seems to be an unwritten rule that no other series is allowed to surpass it. I wasn't surprised that Mario has the most stuff, that absolutely should be the case. I'm surprised that the second place holder is Fire Emblem, of all things. Every time they add more content they sneak some Fire Emblem in there, like everyone's clamoring for it, and the only reaction I ever see is people asking who those characters are. Why are they doing this? |
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Post by Leon on Dec 30, 2015 15:18:10 GMT -5
Because Fire Emblem is like Pokémon in the sense that it has a massive cast of characters to choose from, with the added bonus of IS lacking TPC's merciless bureaucracy. You say that like every other series has exhausted its options. I would've taken a 3rd Metroid or Star Fox character over a 6th Fire Emblem one, especially when half of those FE ones are clones already anyway. A 6th Zelda one would be better too (more Fire Emblem than Zelda? That's insane as fuck, yo). But more than anything I would've taken something like Inkling or Chibi Robo. It's really weird to me that they didn't go with either of those what with the pushes those series got recently. I think it's important to put our own biases aside and look at this from the point of view of NCL. NCL will always look at things from a Japanese perspective, and that makes sense because they're a Japanese company. You and I both know that in Japan Metroid is considered a very niche series, not one of the pillars of the company as some westerners may see it. The same can really be said for Star Fox as well, the last game to sell a decent amount of units was SF64 (but NOT SF643D). From NCL's perspective it simply makes sense to pass over those two. With regards to Zelda, I imagine it's simply a feeling that there's nothing to add. Do you honestly think that if Miyamoto and Aonuma wanted a character to be given a push Sakurai would just ignore them? I think that Aonuma simply doesn't care all that much outside of the triforce holders. Chibi-Robo? Now that's a character nobody would know. I seriously believe that Inklings would have been too resource intensive for the 3DS. But with the runaway success of Splatoon I'm sure they're at the front of the line for Smash NX. As for Shrikes and Donkey Kong, I think Dixie was a victim of bad timing and K. Rool was never in contention. The roster was decided in 2012, and at the time the only active DK characters were DK and Diddy, having just appeared in Returns. Remember that Tropical Freeze wouldn't release until 2014, and the only character to appear from a game released after 2012 was Greninja. The poor reception of TF would then put a damper on any desire to add Dixie as a DLC character. Finally, I don't really see the point in getting irritated at how many characters each series gets. Everything that gets added into Smash has to be approved by NCL, and if they don't care that there are more FE characters than Zelda, why should you or I? It's not your honour or reputation at stake here. |
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Post by nocturnal YL on Dec 30, 2015 20:19:03 GMT -5
…I'd like to add that Zelda doesn't really get less than FE. The only thing FE gets more is the number of entries on the character selection screen ("characters" are hard to define, so I'll skip discussing that; the amount of unique movesets is also debatable). It gets way fewer stages, no items, and so on.
Splatoon may also be a victim of having physics too complicated (liquid/stage interaction) to add to an already complete game.
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Post by kirbychu on Dec 31, 2015 8:30:20 GMT -5
I'm not irritated by it, just confused. It's a really weird decision. Not so much Corrin, being the main character of the newest game I can understand them wanting to do that, but the game is already so lopsided. And I agree that Chibi Robo isn't exactly that well known, but at this point Splatoon and Chibi Robo are the only amiibo franchises not being represented, which seems weird from a marketing standpoint. If they're making a big enough push for these franchises to commit to manufacturing amiibos, you'd think they'd want the added boost of including them in Smash. We've seen what it did for Fire Emblem, after all. …I'd like to add that Zelda doesn't really get less than FE. The only thing FE gets more is the number of entries on the character selection screen ("characters" are hard to define, so I'll skip discussing that; the amount of unique movesets is also debatable). It gets way fewer stages, no items, and so on. They only got one new stage each, but Fire Emblem got three new characters and Zelda got none. So... I'd say it got less, yeah. |
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Post by nocturnal YL on Dec 31, 2015 10:46:15 GMT -5
Final post in 2015 (in my time zone)!
To be fair, even though I'm not a 3D Zelda fan (Nintendo in general has a tendency to pay 2D Zeldas less attention), I'd wished to have more Zelda characters too. Same for DK (but I'm not sure if Metroid can get anyone reasonable). I won't say I want to give up anyone for those though, since it really isn't a 1-for-1 relation.
I think the marketing push is just a side effect, and not the main reason, for Smash. Smash developers are always aiming to make Smash itself fun, and factors like franchise and fame come second to that. If marketing and whatnot are that important, we wouldn't have seen Ryu or Cloud. Unless they're hiding something (ahemfinalfantasyviifornx).
This Smash also seems to like to add more new game worlds (in a loose sense) rather than just characters. This is quite vague, but I think certain games picked as the "themes" of Smash this time - Pokémon X/Y and Greninja, AC: City Folk and Villager, Wii Fit and Wii Fit Trainer, Fire Emblem 13 and Robin, Fire Emblem 14 and Corrin, and so on. The worlds of Star Fox, DK and Metroid are updated too, but their main characters are already in Smash, so no fighters were added. Doesn't explain the Zelda TP cast returning though, or why Chibi-Robo wasn't considered. Maybe because he doesn't have Dragon Fang.
As satasfied as I am with the final lineup of Smash, I'm just as confused and can only hazard a guess on what has happened.
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Post by Boo Destroyer on Dec 31, 2015 11:06:06 GMT -5
I say that If you're looking for more/better Zelda representation, go play Hyrule Warriors.
Franchise history is often better executed in games of their own series. The scope Smash tries to cover is far too much for itself to handle half of the time.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Jan 1, 2016 23:05:43 GMT -5
Before I go further, I want you to realize while I'm saying this that I have absolutely no bias for or against Fire Emblem, I have never played a game in the franchise so I have no way of determining my thoughts on it as a franchise and my only exposure has therefore been through Smash Bros. This is as opposed to you, Leon, given that you are the resident Fire Emblem fan here. And my biases towards other franchises notwithstanding, I would have no issue whatsoever if Fire Emblem were bigger. As for Shrikes and Donkey Kong, I think Dixie was a victim of bad timing and K. Rool was never in contention. The roster was decided in 2012, and at the time the only active DK characters were DK and Diddy, having just appeared in Returns. Remember that Tropical Freeze wouldn't release until 2014, and the only character to appear from a game released after 2012 was Greninja. The poor reception of TF would then put a damper on any desire to add Dixie as a DLC character. Oh horse shit. You're using "The roster was decided in 2012" to defend a character from a game only released in Japan in June 2015 in a series which, again, never sells well getting added over series which are a) much more iconic and b) much better sellers than it. You can say "Oh, but Fire Emblem games always do well in Japan" all you want, but here's the problem with that: It does well in Japan relative to how it does in other regions. It's best sales in Japan hit half a million. Any individual game in the series as a whole, globally or in ideal region, pars with Sonic 2006. It can be a phenomenal franchise but with sales like that it's never going to be worth that sort of representation. Finally, I don't really see the point in getting irritated at how many characters each series gets. Everything that gets added into Smash has to be approved by NCL, and if they don't care that there are more FE characters than Zelda, why should you or I? It's not your honour or reputation at stake here. It's not honor or reputation. The only franchise with more character representation than Fire Emblem in Smash Bros. is Mario, despite the fact that Fire Emblem is, again, a poor seller. It's like we're being advertised at. It isn't popular enough to warrant that sort of representation because of how few people would recognize those characters. It's a question of the enjoyment of familiarity Smash Bros. has always gone for. Otherwise it might as well have remained Dragon King. And to account for how character representation is the important one? Why it's always characters-characters-characters without regard for items, stages, or music? Let's start by saying "Don't think I forgot about DK and Earthbound," but let's go a step further than that. Smash 4, across both versions, offers us 6 Fire Emblem characters, 3 stages, 24 music tracks, and an Assist Trophy. It offers us 2 Donkey Kong characters, 4 stages, 3 enemies, 2 items, and 19 music tracks. With each being treated with equal weight, Fire Emblem has 34, Donkey Kong has 30. Fire Emblem again beats out Donkey Kong. |
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Post by nocturnal YL on Jan 2, 2016 3:57:26 GMT -5
Well... (might as well formally join in the debate)
- Sales this, sales that. It's like you think Smash is either 100% commercially-oriented or 100% character potential (or "bias" or non-sales popularity or whatever)-oriented. No. It's a mix of both. Duck Hunt sold well and is well-known, so they're in. Lucas is well-loved, so he returned.
- Smash also isn't a power map, like I said before. It's not supposed to be indicative of which series is generally more popular, because otherwise we'll get something more than just music from the original Wii Sports, multiple Game & Watch characters (or have moves based only on games like Fire and Octopus, and not Fire Attack), or something more from Brain Age and NSMB DS. Brawl shouldn't have gotten Electroplankton. No, it just doesn't work that way.
- Also, if you do put recognition in the equation (recognition matters, but it's not the only criterion), games being well-recognised in the past doesn't mean much when it comes to their state of recognition now. Smash, at least this iteration, is mainly looking at two things: contemporary versions of the various games, and past versions of Smash itself. Past versions of entries in the other serpies doesn't matter as much. Not that they're unimportant or anything, but that just isn't how Smash sees it.
- You speak as if Leon likes FE alone. That's not the case. He's a Metroid fan too, among other things (Star Fox, F-Zero, Fatal Frame...).
- I do agree that Donkey Kong is getting particularly unlucky throughout Smash. Melee was a weird case to start with (only 5 series get multiple fighters, and the rest all stand alone), Brawl handled it right, the 3DS/Wii U main game did what it could (the lack of ATs or items is still confusing as ever, though), and 3DS/Wii U DLC... DK had no missing veterans, and had no game after Smash. I'd say this is a problem with the criteria for picking DLC character in the first place. Yeah, really unlucky.
- But I also think this is a DK-specific problem. Zelda gets more new items and ATs than any other series, Metroid also gets a bunch of ATs (and I don't think it has much space to expand in terms of playable fighters), Kirby already has the essential characters (and are properly updated), and so on. (I think these series need better stages, but I don't think the Smash team is that big on making stages this time...)
- Off-topic, but I lament how DK gets 7 jungle themes. Ugh.
- DKCTF never had a chance. Not DKCTF's own problem; it's the method Smash uses for picking characters. The roster was decided in 2012, and the DLC picks (applies to Corrin, and I think the SMM stage) were meant for games after Smash came out. Anything in 2013 and 2014 would not be eligible. Again, it was unlucky.
I'll reiterate: is it skewed? Yes. But it's also getting blown out of proportion.
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Post by kirbychu on Jan 2, 2016 12:26:16 GMT -5
I think the marketing push is just a side effect, and not the main reason, for Smash. Smash developers are always aiming to make Smash itself fun, and factors like franchise and fame come second to that. If marketing and whatnot are that important, we wouldn't have seen Ryu or Cloud. Unless they're hiding something (ahemfinalfantasyviifornx). I would've said marketing was the primary reason for Ryu and Cloud being in. Remember, marketing goes both ways. Ryu and Cloud are there to sell Smash Bros to Street Fighter and Final Fantasy fans. And think of the sales for their amiibos when they're released. I have read in a few places that Sakurai himself thinks there are too many Fire Emblem characters and that he was required to include Corrin for marketing purposes. I can't find a direct translation of what he said though, so I'll just leave the link to the Japanese here. |
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Post by Leon on Jan 2, 2016 21:53:09 GMT -5
Before I go further, I want you to realize while I'm saying this that I have absolutely no bias for or against Fire Emblem, I have never played a game in the franchise so I have no way of determining my thoughts on it as a franchise and my only exposure has therefore been through Smash Bros. This is as opposed to you, Leon, given that you are the resident Fire Emblem fan here. And my biases towards other franchises notwithstanding, I would have no issue whatsoever if Fire Emblem were bigger. Oh horse shit. You're using "The roster was decided in 2012" to defend a character from a game only released in Japan in June 2015 in a series which, again, never sells well getting added over series which are a) much more iconic and b) much better sellers than it. You can say "Oh, but Fire Emblem games always do well in Japan" all you want, but here's the problem with that: It does well in Japan relative to how it does in other regions. It's best sales in Japan hit half a million. Any individual game in the series as a whole, globally or in ideal region, pars with Sonic 2006. It can be a phenomenal franchise but with sales like that it's never going to be worth that sort of representation. It's not honor or reputation. The only franchise with more character representation than Fire Emblem in Smash Bros. is Mario, despite the fact that Fire Emblem is, again, a poor seller. It's like we're being advertised at. It isn't popular enough to warrant that sort of representation because of how few people would recognize those characters. It's a question of the enjoyment of familiarity Smash Bros. has always gone for. Otherwise it might as well have remained Dragon King. And to account for how character representation is the important one? Why it's always characters-characters-characters without regard for items, stages, or music? Let's start by saying "Don't think I forgot about DK and Earthbound," but let's go a step further than that. Smash 4, across both versions, offers us 6 Fire Emblem characters, 3 stages, 24 music tracks, and an Assist Trophy. It offers us 2 Donkey Kong characters, 4 stages, 3 enemies, 2 items, and 19 music tracks. With each being treated with equal weight, Fire Emblem has 34, Donkey Kong has 30. Fire Emblem again beats out Donkey Kong. Am I a fan of Fire Emblem Shrikes? Of course, but I am a Nintendo fan first and foremost, and I make it a policy of mine to play as many types of Nintendo games as practical. The first console game my sister and I owned was a copy of DK64, and from there we played mostly Rare and Mario/Zelda games. After playing Melee and finding this very site I expanded my interests to all kinds of Nintendo IP's. As long as it's a Nintendo character, I really don't have a problem with who gets added, even lost characters like Black Shadow, King K. Rool, and Krystal wouldn't upset me. Hell, after playing Devil's Third I'd be pleased to have Ivan make an appearance. For Smash 4, WFT is the newcomer that I'm most pleased by, and my most wanted newcomers were Shulk, Little Mac, and Takamaru. But here's the kicker. If you're a young Japanese gamer, odds are you've played DKCR, but probably not anything with Dixie let alone King K. Rool. On the flipside characters like Robin, Corrin, are more likely to be on their radar. It doesn't help DK much when his friends have been MIA from Mario spinoffs for sometime now. You claim that the FE characters are just an advertisement, but how would adding Dixie not be a cynical attempt to sell more copies of TF? Also if you add all content in Smash including trophies, Donkey Kong does indeed have more content in Smash 4 than FE. Which is pretty good for being a Mario spinoff. |
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Post by nocturnal YL on Jan 3, 2016 3:11:22 GMT -5
I think the marketing push is just a side effect, and not the main reason, for Smash. Smash developers are always aiming to make Smash itself fun, and factors like franchise and fame come second to that. If marketing and whatnot are that important, we wouldn't have seen Ryu or Cloud. Unless they're hiding something (ahemfinalfantasyviifornx). I would've said marketing was the primary reason for Ryu and Cloud being in. Remember, marketing goes both ways. Ryu and Cloud are there to sell Smash Bros to Street Fighter and Final Fantasy fans. And think of the sales for their amiibos when they're released. I have read in a few places that Sakurai himself thinks there are too many Fire Emblem characters and that he was required to include Corrin for marketing purposes. I can't find a direct translation of what he said though, so I'll just leave the link to the Japanese here. Interesting. I've read the Corrin one, and I did suspect that it was Nintedno who wanted to have Corrin, since the way he put it sounds like Nintendo convinced him. I guess that would also explain why they wanted someone who debuted after Smash. Didn't think of it this way for Street Fighter and Final Fantasy, though, since it looks to me that a single guest appearance isn't going to convince PlayStation owners to get a competing system. Of course, there are also a lot of "I'm neutral, I just like games" players who simply get all systems, who are probably more excited to see SF and FF in Smash than pure Nintendo fans. |
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Post by kirbychu on Jan 3, 2016 6:12:23 GMT -5
Didn't think of it this way for Street Fighter and Final Fantasy, though, since it looks to me that a single guest appearance isn't going to convince PlayStation owners to get a competing system. Of course, there are also a lot of "I'm neutral, I just like games" players who simply get all systems, who are probably more excited to see SF and FF in Smash than pure Nintendo fans. I don't think so many FF fans are Playstation owners these days. A lot of them are playing the games on Steam now, since more and more of them are getting ported there. And I know a lot of Street Fighter fans with 3DS, thanks to SF4 being a launch title for it. It's definitely not something I'd buy a whole system for, but I know FF fans who would. |
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Post by TV Eye on Jan 5, 2016 14:56:04 GMT -5
You say that like every other series has exhausted its options. I would've taken a 3rd Metroid or Star Fox character over a 6th Fire Emblem one, especially when half of those FE ones are clones already anyway. This is the main problem I have (I mean aside from the fact that the average person playing Smash Bros has no idea who any of the Fire Emblem characters even are). If Corrin was put in to advertise the new game, why do we have Robin and Lucina? Why did Roy come back? There wasn't a single person who was upset about Wolf in Brawl and plenty of people wanted him back, but where was he? Why couldn't more lesser known franchise be represented? Why did Isaac and Ray get cut as assist trophies? Are they even regular trophies anymore? A lot of people want their characters in Smash because Smash sells. It also makes people interested in characters they wouldn't have known about otherwise. If K. Rool got put in, then I can guarantee he would be in another DK game again. If Isaac showed up then maybe we'd finally get the ending to Golden Sun that we're probably never going to get anymore. Meanwhile, we get a bunch of characters put in from a series with a niche fanbase (most people who have at least heard of Fire Emblem have already decided if they like it or not) and most of them are just copies of each other. It just seems lazy and unfair to the rest of Nintendo's fanbase. |
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Post by Manspeed on Jan 5, 2016 17:13:01 GMT -5
If K. Rool got put in, then I can guarantee he would be in another DK game again That's pretty much why I wanted him there. I also wanted to see him get an amiibo, and pop up in people's fan art and fan fics and other fan things. |
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Post by nocturnal YL on Jan 30, 2016 23:11:49 GMT -5
February 3~4 That's when you can get the 6th batch of DLC. This also means you can see new screenshots on the official website. EDIT - Videos: Corrin defeats Bayonetta: Corrin defeats Bayonetta again: |
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