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Post by kirbychu on Oct 28, 2007 13:43:15 GMT -5
SSB64 is only broken if you're playing against the "competitive player." Playing the game the way it was intended is always extreme fun, which is why the series is so damn popular.
And this is the reason I dispise competitive players. They make games stop being fun, and whine that things like the Starman or the Superspicy Curry are "broken", when in fact, they work exactly as they're supposed to. Then they call anyone who doesn't enjoy playing in their mechanical and empty way a scrub or a Smash n00b.
If you're trying to convince me that competitive players are a good thing, or even an average thing, then you're wasting your time. I've been burned by them too many times. I've had several online games ruined entirely by the jerks who think exploits are playing the game "correctly." I hate competitive players with every fibre of my being, and always will. Yes, it's unfair. Yes, I'm prejudiced. Yes, I'm generalising. I don't care. I will not have this game ruined for me too.
As for why people are having a problem with you in particular... well, you're telling people one of their favourite games is very broken, and every one of your posts has been rather patronising.
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Post by Fryguy64 on Oct 28, 2007 14:02:49 GMT -5
OK, OK. This has gotten confusing. Dosv, nobody said YOU called people names, or Wavedashed, or any of that stuff. Everyone else, lay off the guy a little - he's trying to educate about the meta-game.
Dosv, your only mistake is being the one "serious" player here. It's very easy for you to accidentally sound condescending or insulting when you didn't mean it. You did say "if you don't take it seriously, you're wasting your time"... which is insulting, and what no doubt started a lot of this Pro-hate you're getting in return.
After seeing your posts continue, I'm sure that's not exactly what you meant, but you have to be more careful. You're not on the Smash Boards any more. Most of us have never played at anything approaching professional level, and have no idea what you're talking about half the time when you start using lingo.
However, you are also making the mistake of confusing "professionals" who play for money, and seem to have a code of ethics, etc. and "advanced players" who are as good as professionals, but don't play in a professional capacity. In my opinion, both are taking the game too seriously, but the latter will be the reason Wifi Smash will suck for the grand majority.
Just like Snakers make MKDS suck for the grand majority. Don't forget those arthritic fingers!! That's the comparison.
Wavedashing is an exploit. Maybe it was an accident or a glitch, and the developers left it in on purpose. But they did remove it from Brawl, likely to restore the balance. Maybe they'll chop out all the other exploits you mentioned in the playable Brawl demo before the game is released. No doubt they collected all sorts of info that week.
Suffice to say, I will probably play Smash with the people on this forum, and my friends and family. I will never play to a "professional" level. I will play it till I unlock everything, and then play it all again. And it will be excellent fun. That's what counts.
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Post by TV Eye on Oct 28, 2007 14:06:00 GMT -5
Smash 64 is a very broken game. It's basically just camping for the first hit so that you can 0 to death your opponent no matter which character you are. Fox shine brokenness in SSB 64. www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoP1mPpR3ucWhen I see this video, it reminds me of that other one you posted, with Fox against Falco. You may say Smash 64 is "broken" but these guys seem to be using the same techniques shown in the above video! Does that mean Melee is "broken" too? This is a huge contradiction. They don't need wavedashing because they fight extremely fast and close range without breaking! Every tournament fight I see involves no strategy, just cheap hits and sucker punches. From what I can tell, whoever gets the first hit will most likely win. |
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Post by 8bitretroshit on Oct 28, 2007 14:31:42 GMT -5
Ahh, I didn't know about tournaments with items(never bothered to look that stuff up). That sounds a lot more fun. Sure there's luck involved, but that makes it more exciting, in my view anyway. Also knowing what to do when hazards appear and using them against your opponent's more interesting to look at then chainchainchainchaingrabs. They should just change Fox's reflector into not doing anything, should fix him immidiatly. No doubt some pro smashers tried it at E-for-All, gotta look up somewhere if it's still instant shine or whatever it's called. Also just throwing it out here, people who call Mr.G&W useless never parachuted in free for all, killing people left and right  |
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dosv
Pikpik Carrot
Posts: 10
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Post by dosv on Oct 28, 2007 20:54:43 GMT -5
Kirbychu - SSB 64 is broken onthe highest level of play. You can't really tell me the way the Devs intended for me to play it because you yourself weren't one of the developers. They did intend for you have fun though, and they met their goal. As small as the competitive scene for SSB 64 is, no one is forcing those people to continue playing. There aren't large amounts of money on the line at all. They play because they enjoy it and nobody should dislike them for that.
I guess you despise me since I'm a competitive player. You claim we make the game not fun when for me it's the total opposite. I have way more fun at tournaments compared me playing with items on with my friends back when I was just a casual player. I haven't whined about any items being broken and I don't know and competitive players who even care about stuff like that. I posted a video of an items only tourney and the two combatants in that video were DSF (one of the best Shiek players in the country) and Ken (was known as the best in the world up until this year). Nobody is whining over anything, they simply play the game the way they want and have fun.
Like I said before SSB 64 is broken. It's a known fact. Every character has multiple 0 to death combos. SO should I lie and say it's not broken and just agree with you because you like the game?
Fryguy - I never insulted anyone or was disrespectful to anyone here. I simply said that when you strive to be good at something and you don't take it serious that it's a waste of time. I only said that because someone said Video Games should never be taken serious.
Wifi will be just as fun as ever. If there is someone like me who is trying to be good at Melee or Brawl on a competitive level then they would know that playing random people online is not going to get them better and in fact it would only hurt their game since they don't play the way the average competitive player would. When I play online it will likely be people that I know so I can practice with them during the week.
TV eye - The stuff going on in that SSB 64 video is nothing like what was going in in that MLG vegas match. In SSB 64 there is alot of hitlag. DI (Directional Influence) is not as prominent in this game as it is in Melee. Both of those make it easier to escape combos in Melee making those ridiculous SSB 64 combos impossible to do even in training mode let alone against a human player.
You can't wavedash in SSB 64 and the way fox cancels his shine (aka reflector) is differnet in each game. None of the same techniques were used in either video because most techniques that were in Melee were not in SSB 64 and vice versa. But I can see how it might look that way to the untrained eye.
You calim tournament fights involve no strategy. You've got to be kidding. Smash is just like anything else competitive. Maybe you watch tennis and it looks like 2 people just slapping balls around but there is strategy to it. Same goes for Football, Boxing, Halo, the 100 meter dash, ect. If it were really all about who the faster player is then I would be like 10th best on the east coast right now. Silent Wolf would be the best Fox player in the world. But I'm not the 10th best and Silent wolf is not the best fox because we both get outsmarted and out played by superior players. When I play at tournaments I feel like I'm playing a fast paced game of chess.
In Melee the person who lands the first hit does not necessarily win, they just have the damage advantage. You can DI your way out of every combo in the game. You just have to outpredict which direction your opponent will hit you in next, then DI in a direction so you can be in a position where your opponent cannot continue the combo.
Melee is all about edge guarding and positioning. It's not about combos and smash attacks. It's not about Wavedashing and L-canceling.
You claim everyone fights at close range but thats not true at all. A good player would know that approaching means putting yourself in harms way potentially. Why would you risk taking damage just for a chance to deal some out yourself? If you can do damage without approaching then why wouldn't you?
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Post by TV Eye on Oct 28, 2007 21:18:33 GMT -5
You calim tournament fights involve no strategy. You've got to be kidding. Smash is just like anything else competitive. Maybe you watch tennis and it looks like 2 people just slapping balls around but there is strategy to it. Same goes for Football, Boxing, Halo, the 100 meter dash, ect. I understand where you are going with that, but when I said "no strategy" I meant no one plans anything beforehand. They just go in and duke it out. Football involves an extraordinary amount of strategy! Plays are picked and organized before a game is played, and how did the 100 meter dash get thrown in? That's like comparing...well that is comparing a race to a fight! No, it's about fighting. Just plain ordinary fighting. It's called "Super Smash Bros", not "Super Edge-Guarding Bros".  So what you're saying is that if you fight close range, you are basically killing yourself? When I watch those videos, I don't see people constantly using projectiles. I see them fighting up close. Practically the whole time. |
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Post by Spud on Oct 28, 2007 21:29:22 GMT -5
Melee is all about edge guarding and positioning. It's not about combos and smash attacks. It's not about Wavedashing and L-canceling. I personally like your stance on this. But the problem is that a lot of people who at least claim to be competitive gamers will make statements that would suggest the game revolves around Shuffling and Wavedashing. But I disagree it does have to do with combos and smash attacks but only after properly positioning yourself . That is, I agree more with Tv Eye's argument that it is about fighting since fighting supersets: edge guarding, positioning, combos and smash attacks. |
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Post by Smashchu on Oct 28, 2007 21:31:03 GMT -5
Kirbychu - SSB 64 is broken onthe highest level of play. You can't really tell me the way the Devs intended for me to play it because you yourself weren't one of the developers. They did intend for you have fun though, and they met their goal. As small as the competitive scene for SSB 64 is, no one is forcing those people to continue playing. There aren't large amounts of money on the line at all. They play because they enjoy it and nobody should dislike them for that. I guess you despise me since I'm a competitive player. You claim we make the game not fun when for me it's the total opposite. I have way more fun at tournaments compared me playing with items on with my friends back when I was just a casual player. I haven't whined about any items being broken and I don't know and competitive players who even care about stuff like that. I posted a video of an items only tourney and the two combatants in that video were DSF (one of the best Shiek players in the country) and Ken (was known as the best in the world up until this year). Nobody is whining over anything, they simply play the game the way they want and have fun. Like I said before SSB 64 is broken. It's a known fact. Every character has multiple 0 to death combos. SO should I lie and say it's not broken and just agree with you because you like the game? Fryguy - I never insulted anyone or was disrespectful to anyone here. I simply said that when you strive to be good at something and you don't take it serious that it's a waste of time. I only said that because someone said Video Games should never be taken serious. .............................................................................................................. ............................................................................................................... ............................................................................................................... text of wall But, dude, really, why is this the only thing you are talking about. We have over 9000 topics that could use a bump, yet you constantly ramble about competative play. We understand your point, but we don't care. And a wall of text won't make it any better. |
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dosv
Pikpik Carrot
Posts: 10
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Post by dosv on Oct 28, 2007 23:19:10 GMT -5
TV Eye - There is an extraordinary amount of strategy involved in Melee. And yes before each match strategies are many times thought out beforehand.
Example:
Player A mains Falco and uses Shiek as a secondary.
Player B mains Luigi and uses Fox and Jigglypuff as his secondaries.
First match of the set is always a neutral stage. Each set is 2 out of 3, winners finals is 3 out of 5 and sometimes losers finals is 6 out of 11. You can only counter pick after you've lost a match. The player counter picking the stage first selects the stage, then the opponent has to select a character, and the player selects his/her character. Lets assume this is a normal set.
Neutral stages: Final Destination, Kanto, Fountain of Dreams, Battlefield, Dreamland 64, and Yoshi's Story.
Counter Pick Stages: Rainbow Cruise, Jungle Japes, Poke Floats, Kongo Jungle 64, Brinstar, Corneria, Green Greens, and Mute City.
Each player chooses a character (Player A chooses Falco and Player B chooses Fox) then each player proceeds to ban a stage. Player A bans Final Destination (in fear of being chaingrabbed) and Player B Bans Fountain.
You can ban only 1 stage per set out of any of the neutral and counter pick stages. Banning a neutral stage is usually more beneficial because the first match has to be a neutral stage. Between 2 equally skilled players who use different characters, winning the first match usually leads to winning the set. Back to my explanation.
Match 1- Random lands on Battlefield. Player A wins due to stage advantage (Falco > Fox on battlefield).
Match 2- Player B counterpicks Green Greens. Player A Stays Falco. Player B stays Fox and wins due to stage advantage.
Match 3- Player A counter picks Dreamland 64. Player B switches to Jigglypuff. Player A switches to Shiek and loses due to stage disadvantage.
Now you can probably come up with hundreds or thousands of different stage/character counter picks that would have resulted in Player A winning.
You say Smash is just about plain ordinary fighting. If that were the case then Dashizwiz would be the best player in the world. His combos are ridiculous and they always deal out massive damage. I've seen Marth players just throw other characters off the edge and just forward smash, down tilt, down air and down b the entire match and win without losing a single stock. The point of the game is to get your opponents off the stage and keep them off. Doing damage can help but for some characters it's hard to get a kill at 90% - 250% so they try to get early KO's.
Would you like me to link you videos of players who just spam projectiles and run away? You act as if they don't exist. I never said fighting up close means killing yourself. I said that if you can do damage without approaching then why wouldn't you? Not every character has a projectile so they have to get in close. Knowing your opponent will try to run can be one of your greatest weapons. You just have to force them to a part of the stage that would be bad for them in that particular character matchup.
Yea the game is called SSBM not Super Edge Guarding Bros. but what does that change? Same rules apply for all 3 games in the series. You can't stay on the stage then you lose a stock.
Smashimar - If you're so fed up with me then you don't have to acknowledge me. Since you don't care how about you skip over my posts completely.
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Post by 8bitretroshit on Oct 29, 2007 2:15:39 GMT -5
I'll never go to a tournament because I can't edge guard if my life depended on it. Partly because ever since N64 me and my friends had a special rule: no instant down spike kills or that advanced stuff. This is because Kirby could easily just float up to someone who tried to get back to the stage and spike them into the abyss. Doing so would result in having to commit suicide, sometimes twice when the victim was at 0%. Yeah it's a stupid rule and we no longer actually use it, but none of us actually spikes or use 'advanced edge guard skillz' nowadays because of that. We do play with items and bombard people with everything we got lying there when they try to return though. Also I'm kinda happy tournaments actually use Pokefloats etc. I thought only the list of neutral (boring) stages were tournament legal, so sorry about the Pokefloats bitching  The stage picking thing is neat, I guess now I know why pro people call the simplest fighting game deep. |
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Post by kirbychu on Oct 29, 2007 4:36:35 GMT -5
Kirbychu - SSB 64 is broken onthe highest level of play. You can't really tell me the way the Devs intended for me to play it because you yourself weren't one of the developers. I would say the "How to Play" sections of the games give a fairly good idea. I fail to see parts saying "YOU MUST EDGE-GUARD" or "YOU MUST WAVEDASH". It's about Smash attacks, specials, dodging and recovering. And only a complete fucktard actually camps in a fighting game. They play because they enjoy it and nobody should dislike them for that. I disagree. Because they try to force their shitty way of playing on others. You say it isn't the case, but... well, you're full of crap. It's happened so many times. Right now, on the other forum I go to, there's a competitive player who makes long metagame analysis posts about every update, then when people ignore it and instead talk about the character/place/whatever, he gets angry and accuses us of not being real fans, and not caring about the "true" game. This isn't an isolated incident, either - I've been experiencing this kind of thing from competitive players pretty much since Melee came out. For some reason you seem to think showing up and saying "That's not true!" despite the fact that it clearly is will make things better. |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Oct 29, 2007 5:34:34 GMT -5
Dosv... I really think you should stop claiming to speak for the whole competitive Smash community. You are being unfairly targeted because of it. There are a massive number of competitive dickwads out there. If you and your friends aren't, then great! Keep it that way!  Just like me and the guys on this forum don't claim to speak for all Nintendo fanboys in the world. This is a nice little community unlike any other gaming community I have encountered on the internet - but it's in no way representative of the Nintendo fanboy community as a whole. I'm interested in hearing about this weird world of competitive metagaming, so... Dosv: Stop being so reactive. Everyone else: Back off a bit. He's not done anything wrong, but you are all being harsh and over-reacting. |
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Post by kirbychu on Oct 29, 2007 5:47:13 GMT -5
Yeah, I've been a little harsh. I apologise. The guy I mentioned in my last post has recently been listing reasons why Kirby - by favourite fighter - is incredibly broken and must be removed. The guy is currently the only person I have blocked on MSN, because he added me in order to explain why items must be removed and why stages with a layout unlike Battlefield are broken. Let's just say I've developed a tendancy to get a little testy around competitive players.
I'm aware not all competitive players are like that. But the next time I hear the word "broken" used in relation to a Smash Bros. game, I'm going to... punch a baby. I'm yet to see anything in SSB which doesn't work the way it's intended to.
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Post by 8bitretroshit on Oct 29, 2007 6:11:53 GMT -5
How the hell is Kirby broken, even people who don't surf the internet looking for character lists know Kirby sucks ass in Melee. I guess his reason is the suck in trick. Since when is that gamebreaking broken? The guy is currently the only person I have blocked on MSN, because he added me in order to explain why items must be removed and why stages with a layout unlike Battlefield are broken. That guy is the biggest faggot known to mankind. |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Oct 29, 2007 6:25:59 GMT -5
Haha, I hate that word more than all of the others I've blocked. The long version f*ggot should refer only to a bound bundle of twigs to be used for kindling, and the shorter f*g for... well... cigarette (which is a bound bundle of leaves to be burnt, I guess! Makes sense!)
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The stage picking thing is neat, I guess now I know why pro people call the simplest fighting game deep. 