|
|
Post by Fryguy64 on Mar 25, 2008 8:17:40 GMT -5
Please don't use the polls as evidence that "these characters were considered". We know from interviews that Sakurai couldn't get Bowser and Peach into SSB64, so he got them into SSBM. We know from his words on the website that he considered replacing Ness with Lucas, but that fell through when Mother 3 was cancelled on 64DD - but he's back in time for Brawl!
But I've not read anything that said he was considering Diddy Kong, King Dedede, Meta-Knight, Pokemon Trainer... or indeed any Brawl newcomer for Melee aside from Lucas!
[ Citation Needed ]
|
|
|
|
Post by Captain Walrus on Mar 25, 2008 20:53:06 GMT -5
Didn't Sakurai say he was a fan of Street Fighter? Maybe we should expect Ryu.
|
|
|
|
Post by Smashchu on Mar 25, 2008 22:06:11 GMT -5
It's because of Red Tape. Nintendo at the very least owns half the rights to the first-party characters, which are in fact mostly second-parties who have a really good relationship with Nintendo. Snake and Sonic are not owned by Nintendo, so Nintendo would have to struggle to get the rights. If Konami and Sega are willing to lend their characters, then it is less of a hassle. Either way, Snake snuck in and Sonic broke the door! Fans will be expecting both to return and for more third-party characters to come, no matter how much Nintendo says "Guest Fighter" in reference to Snake and Sonic. (Seems like every fighting game has guest fighters now... I blame Soul Calibur II!) In terms of it being Red Tape, that would not be the case. The game was planned with Snake being the only third party character. Sonic was added much later. But there would have been at least one developer wanting to negotiate with Nintendo. So, it's either there was a very strict restriction, or it was Nintendo asking the other companies. As for more third parties, it wouldn't not be a case of they have to. The original plan had only Snake so it's not that they have too. The other thing is that Sonic was (and probably will be)the only character everyone agreed should be in. Like what I said about Megaman, everyone is split, and the popularity easily shifts. I am not confident that there will be another third party to be widley popular, and probably not another in Smash outside of Metal Gear and Sonic the Hedgehog. First, NO, not everyone was planned for Melee. Like Fry said, the only one was Lucas. There were quite a few characters who weren't in melee that were wanted. But not the entire roster. Not ROB, not Olimar, not Ike, not Wolf, not Dedede, and not PKMN Trainer. Also, none of those characters you mentioned have a strong chance (Cloud's is also 0). Pac-Man is also a bad suggestion becuase A)No one has asked for him and B)He wouldn't make a good fighter. You can make a moveset for him (and a good FS) but he doesn't have much to draw on compaired to the others. And again, Megaman is not that requested. He only really jumped in popularity after Sonic was shown, and even then, he's not as popular as Sonic. Sonic getting in late shows that the requirements are high, and that there may not be another third party characters in Brawl. |
|
|
|
Post by 8bitretroshit on Mar 25, 2008 23:18:25 GMT -5
I dunno, when Sakurai said the characters had to have appeared on a Nintendo console at E3 06, I was probably not the only one immediately thinking and rooting for Megaman. But you're right though, compared to Sonic, Megaman's just another face in the huge crowd of requests. Old rivalry made Sonic the number one pick. Sonic getting in late doesn't show anything about requirements though (probably shows more how gonzoy SEGA can be with his mascot) and who knows, maybe they'll go for five 3rd party guest characters in the sequel (and end up with 4, causing people (IGN) to gonzo and moan even then)
Saying people are split about Megaman and are all jumping for joy about Sonic is silly. Sonic's game suck nowadays and quite a lot of people were actually really pissed that that 'blue piece of shit has-been' got in the game. No I'm not one of 'em.
|
|
|
|
Post by Game Guru on Mar 25, 2008 23:24:15 GMT -5
In terms of it being Red Tape, that would not be the case. The game was planned with Snake being the only third party character. Sonic was added much later. But there would have been at least one developer wanting to negotiate with Nintendo. So, it's either there was a very strict restriction, or it was Nintendo asking the other companies. As for more third parties, it wouldn't not be a case of they have to. The original plan had only Snake so it's not that they have too. The other thing is that Sonic was (and probably will be)the only character everyone agreed should be in. Like what I said about Megaman, everyone is split, and the popularity easily shifts. I am not confident that there will be another third party to be widley popular, and probably not another in Smash outside of Metal Gear and Sonic the Hedgehog. And I am confident that now that Sonic is in the game and will likely be in the next one, the fans will redouble their efforts to get Mega Man in. Popularity does shift, but then Sonic's current games aren't popular or good, but Sonic got in anyway to settle the great 16-bit rivalry. It's not like Mega Man is as forgetable as Crash Bandicoot, and he at least is best known for his appearences ON Nintendo platforms, unlike Snake or Sonic. Oh, and the Hedgehog WASN'T unaminiously requested. I for example didn't care one way or another, since I was never part of 16-Bit War as I had both the SNES and the Genesis, and was a fan of both the Hedgehog and the Plumber. Flip he disliked the idea of Sonic. Heck, I've heard many people express their disproval before Sonic was revealed mearly because of Sonic 2006 being a crappy game. The majority may've wanted Sonic, but it wasn't unaminous until Sonic actually appeared and proved that Nintendo knew just what made him Sonic the Hedgehog, and that was the first time I really loved that Sonic was in Super Smash Bros. First, NO, not everyone was planned for Melee. Like Fry said, the only one was Lucas. There were quite a few characters who weren't in melee that were wanted. But not the entire roster. Not ROB, not Olimar, not Ike, not Wolf, not Dedede, and not PKMN Trainer. Also, none of those characters you mentioned have a strong chance (Cloud's is also 0). Pac-Man is also a bad suggestion becuase A)No one has asked for him and B)He wouldn't make a good fighter. You can make a moveset for him (and a good FS) but he doesn't have much to draw on compaired to the others. And again, Megaman is not that requested. He only really jumped in popularity after Sonic was shown, and even then, he's not as popular as Sonic. Sonic getting in late shows that the requirements are high, and that there may not be another third party characters in Brawl. Again, I'm not talking about Brawl, I am talking about Smash 4, the sequel to Brawl. Smash 4 is likely to come out for the Super Wii or WiiToo or whatever the heck they'll call Nintendo's sixth console. You say Cloud isn't possible now, but then there is at least 5 years between here and there. What if Final Fantasy XIII flops on PS3? What if they decide to bring Final Fantasy over to the Wii because of that including a Final Fantasy VII sequel or remake? Just because Cloud's chances are zero now, doesn't mean they will be zero in time for the next version of Smash. Heck, back when Melee was in development, Sega was still active as a console maker with the Sega Dreamcast, so much like another icon, Sonic really had zero chance. There was only 8 months between the end of the Dreamcast and the release of Super Smash Bros. Melee. Now he's in Melee's sequel, albeit he just barely made it in. Unlikely, maybe. Improbable, definately, but for all we know, Arcadnik's list however lame we think it is, could have a chance to be spot on accurate. In fact, it is the roster that nearly everyone hates that ends up being the roster for Smash Bros. It was true for Melee and it was true for Brawl. Either way, I feel speculating about Smash 4 to be pointless and stupid until there IS a Smash 4 to speculate over. I didn't get myself overhyped about Brawl, because I knew that it would be the roster everyone hated... And as soon as 35 characters with mostly veterans, Lucario, Toon Link, Wolf & R.O.B. was in the leakers' predictions and everyone started trying to prove that it wasn't true was I sure that that was the roster. |
|
|
|
Post by Fryguy64 on Mar 26, 2008 5:21:17 GMT -5
Alright alright... pack it in. Snake is awesome, Sonic is awesome, Mega Man is awesome, Pac-Man is awesome, Cloud Strife is stupid. Are we agreed? ;D We need to move this conversation on, as everyone has de-evolved into total ignorance and arguing from nonsense claims. Might as well argue that Pac-Man is popular because my weiner is massive! With the one difference being that both of those statements are demonstrably true  So I'm going to cut this conversation right here and kick off a new one. We've seen the final Brawl rosters now, and we know who got cut in favour of newcomers. If and when SSB4 arrives on our shores, who do you think won't make it next time and why? |
|
|
|
Post by Arcadenik on Mar 26, 2008 8:09:27 GMT -5
Good question, Fry.
Most of the characters in Brawl will return... but certain characters won't return.
1. Lucario - replaced Mewtwo as the Movie Pokemon rep, so he is likely to be replaced with a 5th or 6th gen Movie Pokemon rep.
2. Pokemon Trainer - Red could be replaced with May and she gets 3 new Pokemon (Mudkip, Grovyle, and the overrated Blaziken) - much like how overrated Charizard didn't get in Melee but got in Brawl
3. Falco or Wolf - one of them might leave to make room for Krystal; 4 Star Fox reps would be overkill
4. Ike - he might be replaced with a more recent Fire Emblem lord with similar moveset like how he replaced Roy
I'm entirely not sure about Snake and Sonic. I feel that they shouldn't come back in SSB4 (even though I kinda liked their movesets) because they are just that... guest stars. Sakurai never intended for third party characters to be in SSB games in the first place. Sure, Snake got in but only because Kojima wouldn't leave Sakurai alone and the fact that Sonic got in very late in the development (the reason for the first delay) only proves to me that Sonic had to be in the game because it isn't fair to the world's most-wanted third-party character if Snake got in and Sonic didnt. And to settle the 16-bit console wars (which I thought was settled when Dreamcast brought Sega down, but whatever).
Lastly, I'm not sure about whether Mother should have two reps or not. Maybe Lucas stays and Ness gets replaced with Kumatora or Claus?
|
|
|
|
Post by 8bitretroshit on Mar 26, 2008 9:10:17 GMT -5
I don't think Ness'll ever get shaft, he may not be the first of his series like Marth, but he's one of the original 12 and that counts for something... right? If someone got kicked out it would be Lucas, but I don't see that happening either really, unless Mother 4 comes along (zero chance) and the main character gets in instead.
I can see Lucario getting replaced by a new, similar super pokemon from movie #20 or whatever. Not sure about Trainer, the pokemon you control are the very first you start with from the first game(s) afterall. But maybe the Trainer's pokemon'll get replaced by a bunch of new starters to promote generation 5 or 6, kinda like Roy did with Fire Emblem. Just because I don't really see them have 2 Trainer-like characters in the roster.
I don't know how popular Fire Emblem is, but I've got a feeling they'll be getting 3 reps next time around. If that's the case anyway, Ike might return alongside Marth... if 'First lord to go international console-wise' has any value anyway.
Lastly I don't see Wolf getting the boot, he's pretty popular afterall, plus he's Starfox's playable badguy. Falco isn't going anywhere either. Personally I don't think Starfox should have 4 reps, but if it will you can bet your ass it'll be Krystal. But I don't really see them replacing popular playable Starfox rival with a fox Nintendo seems to try to get rid of in Starfox Command.
Changing Wolf's Final Smash wouldn't hurt, but let's not get into that.
As for guest characters, Snake got in because Kojima and Sakurai are buds, right? But if some other guy makes the sequel (seems pretty likely to me) it could make things difficult for Snake's return. Though Kojima's a fan of smash in general? Ahhh I don't know...
Though Sonic got in solely because of his many requests and SEGA likes whoring out Sonic like Nintendo's Mario so I can see him return. Unless SEGA's being a dick with royalties or something.
And ofcourse maybe they'll be totally different each installment, like a lot of people like to suggest.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2008 9:28:36 GMT -5
Hmm...let's see.
After some thought, I can only see Lucario and Toon Link getting the boot from SSB's roster come the fourth game. Lucario's slot seems to be the "current popular humanoid movie Pokémon" slot, so, typically, he'll be replaced by some sixth-gen Pokémon that fits the above requirement. Toon Link is also pretty much done; every Link traditionally gets two games, and TL has lucked out by getting both Wind Waker/Phantom Hourglass and Four Swords Adventures/Minish Cap. So unless Toon Link continues to establish himself as a style of Link, and if Nintendo feels like releasing "lesser" Zelda games more frequently than the heavy-hitters like Twilight Princess, you can expect him to split.
I believe any remaining SSB character that's been in two games by this point will stick around; I'm not concerned about a character like, say, Falco, who made the cut as an important Star Fox character above the currently-wicked-popular Krystal. So anyone who's a veteran from Melee on up is gonna keep up a presence.
Also, a lot of newcomers from Brawl are unique enough to stick around as well; some are no-brainers like Diddy Kong or King Dedede, but those that aren't command enough respect to be worth sticking around. Pokémon Trainer in particular comes to mind; it's been established by this point that the first generation of Pokémon is the most recognizable, or else we wouldn't have a combination of first-gen starters as playable characters. And I believe Wolf is gonna stick around, too; he was chosen over Krystal as well for one reason or another, and I believe Sakurai's going to stick by his choice (assuming he'd be involved with the project).
So, yeah, really only Toon Link and Lucario.
|
|
|
|
Post by Fryguy64 on Mar 26, 2008 9:29:29 GMT -5
I'm definitely with you on Lucario. I think he'll be the first to go out of them all. He's interesting enough, but I don't think he should have replaced Mewtwo (if we're sticking with clone-ish types, we really should have had them both - Mewtwo is much better known). Ike, again, I agree. I think he's Brawl's Roy, and that character will cycle around while Marth remains a constant. To justify Fox, Falco and Wolf, there would have to be a much bigger distinction between them all aside from basic statistics and move tweaks. Losing one would not be a big loss (but because I hate to see a grown Tei cry, I'd lose Wolf) I would be very surprised if Pokemon Trainer was replaced, simply because the original starter trio are so well-known. But a more recent trainer in addition to Pokemon Trainer is a distinct possibility in my mind. As for Guest Characters - we should either have a couple more, or lose them altogether. I really think 2 is a bit of a lame effort. They should have pushed the boat out on this one - surely everyone would be clamouring to get their characters in Sakurai's opus! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2008 9:36:34 GMT -5
Oh, I definitely wouldn't mind if Wolf left; he's fun to play as and he really caught me off guard, but I'm not as into him as a character. Again, I think Falco's established enough by this point both in the Smash Brothers and Star Fox franchises to know that he'll stick around.
Ike makes sense too, I guess - but I'm not up-to-spot with Fire Emblem, really. Don't care for the series much, so I don't follow up on it. But calling him "Brawl's Roy" feels fitting.
And I agree on the 3rd Party characters comment, too; it should definitely be an all-or-nothing deal, as Snake and Sonic didn't feel like enough of an effort by themselves. More, plz!
|
|
|
|
Post by TV Eye on Mar 26, 2008 10:11:57 GMT -5
2. Pokemon Trainer - Red could be replaced with May May...MAYOh please, for the love of God, no. |
|
|
|
Post by Flip on Mar 26, 2008 11:09:42 GMT -5
I'll say it again: SSB4 has two routes it can take.
1) Beef up the roster with more secondary/peripheral characters, "new heroes," and "forgotten heroes." Some assume there are many unwritten "rules" for this, but the only one we can guarantee is that the character must be interesting and offer something to the fanbase. Pit was chosen because he was a top-requested RETRO character (according to Sakurai, he's retro) who would offer a unique position within the roster. A character like Meowth, on the other hand, offers nothing that is original or interesting. Also, keep Snake and Sonic due to popularity and maybe add another from their series.
Examples I can think of for characters: Waluigi, Bowser Jr., King K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Krystal (peripherals); Little Mac, Isaac, Takamaru (though I feel like he's not even worth mentioning anymore :/), Ray (new/forgotten)
2) Include the minimal for new Nintendo characters, pulled from "retro," "new," and "peripheral." Focus heavily on including more "guest characters," tastefully, to the game. Make Super Smash Bros. into a "Dreammix TV" type game. This is what we have been debating for a while, I understand. But hear me out: this is the perfect opportunity for Nintendo. The other day, I heard my brother and his friend complain that they were "reaching" for characters in Brawl. It's a common argument. And no matter how cool King Dedede, Ike, Pokemon Trainer, etc. etc. really are... it is true in a way. How recognizable is an addition like Isaac really going to be? Dark Samus? Krystal? They would no doubt be popular with Nintendo fans, but the general public would grow tired of them fast. And so to help boost the game's popularity, reach, and to show good faith in its "neighbors," Nintendo begins to ask developers for their characters to use in the game. Only characters that have "appeared on Nintendo" or "make sense," obviously, and they would NEVER outnumber the Nintendo cast. But it would be a healthy addition akin to Snake and Sonic's additions, where there is a decent amount of stuff to compare with individual franchises and feel like the characters truly belong.
Examples I can think of for characters: Little Mac, Isaac, Krystal, Dark Samus (the Nintendo additions would focus on peripheral characters that are more recognizable to "average Joes"); Mega Man, Pac-Man, "Belmont," Bomberman (guest characters that are, still, synonymous with Nintendo and would offer fresh material to the game without crowding out Mario, Zelda, and the rest of the gang)
Of course, either option would require Sakurai. If there were no Sakurai, SSB4 would be a half-ass job and probably add little to no fresh faces to the game. Or, if it did, they would be really lame additions and not feel as great as the Sakurai originals.
|
|
|
|
Post by Spud on Mar 26, 2008 14:08:09 GMT -5
2. Pokemon Trainer - Red could be replaced with May May...MAYOh please, for the love of God, no. I think what he means to say is Red getting replaced with Green not May. though Gold would also be a good choice. |
|
|
|
Post by Dances in Undergarments on Mar 26, 2008 18:49:22 GMT -5
2) Include the minimal for new Nintendo characters, pulled from "retro," "new," and "peripheral." Focus heavily on including more "guest characters," tastefully, to the game. Make Super Smash Bros. into a "Dreammix TV" type game. This is what we have been debating for a while, I understand. But hear me out: this is the perfect opportunity for Nintendo. The other day, I heard my brother and his friend complain that they were "reaching" for characters in Brawl. It's a common argument. And no matter how cool King Dedede, Ike, Pokemon Trainer, etc. etc. really are... it is true in a way. How recognizable is an addition like Isaac really going to be? Dark Samus? Krystal? They would no doubt be popular with Nintendo fans, but the general public would grow tired of them fast. And so to help boost the game's popularity, reach, and to show good faith in its "neighbors," Nintendo begins to ask developers for their characters to use in the game. Only characters that have "appeared on Nintendo" or "make sense," obviously, and they would NEVER outnumber the Nintendo cast. But it would be a healthy addition akin to Snake and Sonic's additions, where there is a decent amount of stuff to compare with individual franchises and feel like the characters truly belong. Examples I can think of for characters: Little Mac, Isaac, Krystal, Dark Samus (the Nintendo additions would focus on peripheral characters that are more recognizable to "average Joes"); Mega Man, Pac-Man, "Belmont," Bomberman (guest characters that are, still, synonymous with Nintendo and would offer fresh material to the game without crowding out Mario, Zelda, and the rest of the gang) I'd much prefer them take this route, without a doubt. I mean, it would be cool to me if someone like Waluigi got into Smash Bros, but he really doesn't need to be, and would only appeal to a few of us. Friends of mine also made comments about how they should have had 'x character', and 'x character' was always a 3rd party character (or Mewtwo) - they could get a lot more mileage going this way. As for what characters are gonna get the boot, Lucario and Ike are who I'd say are getting the chop for their newer counterparts - and I guess Lucas on the 1/212432546434263 chance we get a 4th mother game. Toon Link could go if the Toon Link games are abolished (I doubt it), or, alternatively, could go on to be become just 'Link' if the realistic Link is killed off (I also doubt it, but hey). |
|
