Donkey Kong Junior = Donkey Kong of today?

[Koopaul]

Nov 11, 2008 22:06:10 GMT -5 Arcadenik said:

Donkey Kong IS part of the Marioverse. Donkey Kong and Mario's first game proves that.


Let me guess... people over at DKVine claim that Donkey Kong is not part of the Marioverse and that Conker, Banjo, Grabbed by the Goonies, and whatever else Rare made is part of the Donkey Kong Universe, right?

Yes, that's exactly what they think..

They say that DK only visits Mario's universe via a warp-pipe but isn't a part of it. *sigh*

I knew someone making a topic like this would lead to talks of the DKVine. I feel bad now. You know a couple of years ago I would be okay about bad-mouthing DKVine, but now that I have a place there... I feel a bit guilty.

[Boo Destroyer]

Bah, this topic was already gonna hit rock bottom from the start. Be careful next time, Parrothead.

[Manspeed]

@ Koopaul:

You can't seriously talk about "canon" in games like those because there really isn't any official canon. If there were, Nintendo would document it more thoroughly. They don't, and everyone knows they intentionally make the games episodic in nature so as to leave everything to our imagination. That's why the only "canon" that the Mario and DK games have is fanon.

[Hiker of Games]

That's not necessarily true. It's canon that Mario and Luigi are brothers. The games, to my knowledge, do not break this tidbit of continuity. If there was no canon, as you say, then one game might portray Mario as Luigi's father.

[BeamClaws]

Yes, it is also canon that DK wears a tie, is named Donkey Kong and lives in a jungle right? without canon, they'll make him wear pants, name him Steve Davis, and make him live in a city, right?

[Spud]

Nov 12, 2008 14:56:37 GMT -5 Hiker of Games said:

That's not necessarily true. It's canon that Mario and Luigi are brothers. The games, to my knowledge, do not break this tidbit of continuity. If there was no canon, as you say, then one game might portray Mario as Luigi's father.

Luigi = Mario's Brother and Luigi = Mario's Son aren't mutually exclusive statements.

[Manspeed]

There's continuity, but not really a canon per se. If there were a canon, then certain games could end up being written off by Nintendo as having never happened and therefore not canon. Alternatively, you could say that no Mario game is non-canon and everything you see happened somehow.

[Hiker of Games]

Fans tend to use canon and continuity interchangeable. So let's break it down.

There's several definitions for canon, but these two seems to fit what we're looking at the most:

a) The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic:
or
b) The body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art

Under the first definition, there absolutely is a Mario 'canon'. In this case, we know for certain Super Mario World is canon. We don't know for sure if Mario's Time Machine is canon. We know that Joe Shmoe's Mario Fangame is not canon.

Under the second definition (which is what I believe fans lean more towards in their usage) is a little more loose. The major things that might be considered problematic to the Mario canon (the ability for Mario to triple jump) exists in games that would arguably have a strong canon, such as the Metroid series. Yet in some Metroid games, Samus can edge grab and in some she can't.

A good principle that would be accepted as universally binding is the above one I made: Mario is Luigi's brother. It is not a strong statement, but it doesn't have to be.

Under both definitions, there's no reason to dismiss the idea that the Mario series lacks canon.

The other word that is thrown around is continuity. This is the most applicable definition I could see:

a) An uninterrupted succession or flow; a coherent whole.

This is a little less clear, but a good example of what would not be considered a continuity would be looking at a series where past events have no effect on later entries to the story. For instance, the world ending at the end of an episode or story and suddenly returning in the next story. This series might still have a canon, but there is no continuity beyond the individual stories.

This is not the case with the Mario series. Though it is weak on continuity, it is not beyond referencing past events. An example of that is the story arc for the three Super Mario Land games. This a clear case of continuity.

So does Mario have a canon? Absolutely. Does it have a continuity? You betcha.

Are they as strongly followed or continuous as, say, the Metroid series? Of course not. But they're still there. The Mario canon is weaker than the Zelda series, but I would argue it has a much, much stronger continuity. Which is why I am always baffled that people can seriously discuss the Zelda timeline, but balk at any kind of discussion about the Mario universe.

[BeamClaws]

Because they dismiss mario as a silly little plaything, not realizing it has a story, or a serious one at that. But that makes me wonder how DK's story is discussed inteligentley.

[Hiker of Games]

When I was saying Mario, I consider it a blanket statement that encompasses Donkey Kong and Wario as well.

[Manspeed]

Are they as strongly followed or continuous as, say, the Metroid series? Of course not. But they're still there. The Mario canon is weaker than the Zelda series, but I would argue it has a much, much stronger continuity. Which is why I am always baffled that people can seriously discuss the Zelda timeline, but balk at any kind of discussion about the Mario universe.

I guess I was right the first time then... meaning before I ran into all these people claiming "Mario has no canon! Miyamoto said so!!!11!!1!!"

That's still not as bad as people who say "It's a game" and try to end it there.

[Koopaul]

I consider recurring characters a part of canon as well. The fact that many Paper Mario characters reappeared in the second one proves that the series has canon. Even races and places make canon.

DK's canon, I must admit, has been much more fluid since Rare left. Jungle Beat is without the DK canon we all know.

[Manspeed]

More fluid? Or less?

Rare actually had a better sense of continuity than Nintendo does, at any rate. I'll still never understand why JB replaced everything Rare-made with shitty facsimiles.

[Koopaul]

It didn't "replace" anything, it was just trying something new. I don't think their intent was to recreate the entire series, but just do something original for themselves.

[BeamClaws]

Something more violent, too.