The State of Third Parties

[Nester the Lark]

It's a little worse for MadWorld than you think. The official NPD number is 66,000 units for March. (Source) That's slightly better than House of the Dead: Overkill, but certainly nothing to get even remotely excited about.

Now, I'm not an expert when it comes to sales numbers, but I tend to look at the 100,000 mark. If it breaks that, then I would consider it reasonably successful. Of course, actual sales benchmarks are much more complex than that, taking into account the game's budget, the target audience, and who knows what else.

On a different note, I've noticed on these forums that when a third-party game's sales don't reach our expectations, it has been blamed on two things: poor marketing, and being a "niche" title (whatever that's supposed to mean for the Wii). So, which excuse are we going to use for GTA: Chinatown Wars?

EDIT: Couple of follow-ups:

Nintendo reminds us that games on Nintendo platforms tend to sell well over longer periods of time, and Take Two intends to continue supporting the DS. (Source)

GameStop says GTA:CW exceeded sales expectations, and Take Two also thinks it has "long-term potential for success." (Source)

[Nester the Lark]

G4 has a rant about the poor sales of MadWorld and GTA: Chinatown Wars, blaming the "core" gamers for not purchasing them.

While the DS and Wii are certainly aimed at broader audiences than the PlayStation Portable and Xbox 360, certainly there are a percentage of "core" gamers that own each system. Let's low-ball each installed base and say that the "hardcore" segment of each is around 10 percent. That would leave use with around 3.4-million DS owners and 2.2-million Wii owners in America. You're telling me that with this fractional subsection of these respective installed bases, only 89,000 units of Chinatown Wars and 66,000 units of MadWorld were sold? Really?!?

[Wildcat]

I don't know if this was posted, but Factor 5 is in some deep trouble... Looks like a Rogue Squadron was being made for Wii, too. We'll see what happens.

[Savage Adam]

Jun 19, 2009 9:36:58 GMT -5 Wildcat said:

I don't know if this was posted, but Factor 5 is in some deep trouble... Looks like a Rogue Squadron was being made for Wii, too. We'll see what happens.

[Game Guru]

Mar 31, 2009 13:05:57 GMT -5 Nester the Lark said:

Mar 31, 2009 2:00:46 GMT -5 Game Guru said:

Getting back on topic, I would figure that The Conduit would be a better indicator of how well a third-party core game would do, rather than Light Gun games, because Wii pretty much got that in the bag. As for stuff like Madworld, No More Heroes, and Boom Blox, they are obvious niche game, the mere fact they seem to be doing better on the Wii than on the PS2 is a testament on how varied the Wii Audience actually is.

I would agree that The Conduit might have a wider appeal because it's not some highly stylized or experimental game. It's just a technically proficient FPS.

I don't understand your last statement, tho, as MadWorld, No More Heroes and Boom Blox were not released on the PS2. I also wouldn't call Boom Blox a niche game, as it's exactly that kind of family-friendly party game that seems to dominate on the system. (And even then, it was still a slow burner.)

I meant niche games in general... KIller 7 from Suda51, and Okami & God Hand from Clover all bombed hard. Of course, Madworld didn't do anywhere near what Viewtiful Joe managed, but then that started as an exclusive to the GameCube. Okami, admittingly, came to the Wii and I believe it sold better on the Wii than the PS2. No More Heroes definitely sold better than Killer 7, as it's getting a sequel. Remember that you have to put the success of Suda51 and Platinum Games into perspective. They make niche games. Viewtiful Joe was a fluke success. No More Heroes was a success for a niche game from Suda51. Heck, even The Conduit might not be a perfect indicator of core game success, as it is from a no-name company who makes most of their money on licensed crap. In fact, I would say the best barometer of core third-party success so far is still Resident Evil 4 Wii Edition, and even then it was just a last gen port of the PS2 and GC Version.

I mean, hell, we haven't even seen porting from the PSP to the Wii that much even! Third-parties are eager beavers with porting between Xbox 360 and PS3, but porting between PSP and Wii, nooo! That's unacceptable! I find it a bit insulting that PSP has more core third-party games than the Wii does.

[Da Robot]

BUMP!

I think everyone needs to see the trailer for this cancelled Wii title. Really does show what a developer can do with a good idea. (Sandbox enivironment with minigame challenges, enhanced Mii design, multiplayer and some interesting use of WiiConnect 24 and also . . .Mr T?).

Here's "The Next Big Thing/No Limits Racing."




The game used some interesting features of the Wii and the only reason why it was cancelled was because the developer Pandemic Studios Brisbane got shut down.

[Da Robot]

Here's a whole bunch of developers sounding off on Wii game development. Really got to agree with some of their points.


David Amor, Creative Director, Relentless Software:
Is the Wii alive to anyone except Nintendo at the moment? A couple of years ago I took calls from EA asking us to consider developing for Wii.

My answer then is the same as it is now: the Wii consumer is well served by first party Nintendo software and they rarely step away from the franchises they’re familiar with. Being a third party publisher with new IP on Wii is a commercially dangerous position. It’s a great machine but I doubt I’ll ever make a game for it.”

Ed Daly, General Manager, Zoe Mode:
The Wii was all freshness and innovation but there’s a danger of that being lost in a glut of derivative games. Our experience is that fear that over-supply and fatigue from the mainstream Wii adopters is holding back some publishers and suppressing dev budgets – but there are plenty of great ideas as yet unexploited.

Anonymous – studio head at a leading international developer:
The Wii has, and will continue to, open up gaming to a much broader demographic than the other consoles have been able to. The accessibility provided by the Wiimote removes a barrier that scares many ‘non-traditional’ gamers from playing video games. However, the limited power of the console means it is difficult for it to compete with the very latest generation of games on PS3 and 360, at least in terms of the ‘wow factor’.
I think there is still a big potential market for Wii games which are based on accessible and original gameplay for a whole range of gamers from both the core gaming world and new entrants.

However the relative ease of making a Wii game in comparison to PS3 and 360 development, means it has become too easy to flood the market with under-developed product which have the potential to confuse and disappoint the public. A few more high quality, high profile Wii only games would add much to its market profile.

Gary Penn, Creative Director, Denki Ltd:
I have an ongoing love-hate relationship with Nintendo. I love aspects of their projected attitude, like their child-like innocence and their belief that the sheer power of the technology isn't as important as what you do with it, which has resulted in some incomparable software and hardware – and plenty of tribute acts.
I hate most of what's done with the Wii – including most of its 'operating' system. I can't be arsed with most of the games on it apart from some of Nintendo's, but I have infinitely more fun playing with the Wii and my kids than I do any other platform.

The Wii's not exactly a barrel of laughs to work on either, especially after Xbox. It's a real love-hate challenge to get the most out of the Wii Remote. You have to fake it big time to really make it work and no one else seems to fake it as well Nintendo.

I guess most of the industry's still trying to be too clever for its own good.

Martin Hollis, CEO, Zoonami: (directed Goldeneye and most recently Bonsai Barber).
To make a game that truly uses the potential of the Wii Remote requires several things.

Firstly you will need imagination. You must unlearn what you have learned and put away cynical thoughts such as "it is just a gimmick" or "buttons are better". This degree of open-mindedness is not easy to find.

Our industry is focused on incremental evolution of tried-and-tested mechanics, interactions and input devices. Our industry is focused inwards on itself, and on its most loyal followers.

Secondly you will need patience. To give an example today's button-based platform game relies on over twenty years of game development across the world. Your first Wii Remote game will not compete.

Thirdly you will need humility. You need humility because you will be making games for people who are unlike yourself. Therefore you will need to place their wishes above yours.

Owen Daly-Jones, Director, PlayableGames:
The strongest innovation from Nintendo and the Wii has been the controllers. They offer so much potential for game developers and gamers alike. However, I don't think the range and quality of game titles has delivered on this promise.

Far too many titles for the platform are repetitive copies of various party and sports games. More adult-themed titles and a greater variety in general is required. How many party or skiing games does one need in a collection at home?

Unfortunately the problem with adult titles and greater realism is that the hardware cannot support the graphics required. It is ironic that the MotionPlus improved controllers stress realism when the graphics in the game cannot depict the realist effects.

Chances are Xbox and PS3 will jump right on past with their motion sensing approaches, backed up by the graphics hardware and power to create realistic worlds.

Simon Gardner, CEO, Climax Studios:
Yes the Wii is a good platform to work on, we feel we now understand the hardware and the interface very well now, but the flip-side to that is that non-Nintendo publishers feel they haven’t done that well on it commercially. That’s the biggest issue.

From that perspective the Wii is a really difficult device to develop for, because as a hardcore games machine, Wii games are always going to be held up against whatever’s just come out on the Xbox 360 or PS3.

You know, I’m quite bored of reading things like ‘oh, the graphics are pretty good but not as good as a PS3 game’. Well, that’s obvious, but it’s still said all the time. So the second you try to make a gamer’s game for it you will get unflattering comparisons. That’s why it’s difficult.

I do think that there’s a problem with the installed base. Despite it being very large, I think the attachment rate is fairly low, and I think that colours publishers’ view on how much they can invest in the system.

I think that ROI’s on Wii games are probably low. I think publishers are very conservative on how much they can spend on it.

Of course, with Silent Hill Shattered Memories, we’ve made a gamer’s game, and we’ve put a lot of passion into the game to get it right. But we’ve now got to wait and see how successful it’s really going to be commercially. That’s kind of out of our hands, but it will be interesting to see if people will buy it as opposed to another first-person shooter.

We just don’t know if hardcore games can succeed on the Wii. I think it’s yet to be proven. I think a lot of people have bought Wii’s, but many aren’t buying software for it.

Actually developing for it is fine. I think we’ve done some really clever things with it, and I don’t think it’s much of a struggle to get the most out f it, actually.


Also Metacritic shows that DS and Wii as having the worst rated games of the year.

[Da Robot]

Well . . . this ain't good folks. Looks like SEGA is giving up with mature titles on the Wii.

“I have to say that it was a space that was open and we took a gamble on it. It’s like, ‘Wow, there’s no mature games on the Wii. Is there an audience out there?’ We did some research, it said there was an audience out there. I won’t comment about Nintendo, they did champion The Conduit as a ‘this is a Nintendo game.’ And, you know, I think they did okay by us. At the end of the day, I just think that you’re seeing kids are skewing much younger towards next-gen. And that’s what I saw out of Conduit. Because not a bad game, visually it’s appealing, right? AI wasn’t that great. High Voltage’s first real effort as an indie developer, creating their own IP. And it was a good effort, right? And there’s always Conduit 2, right? …Anyone past 12 years old was playing 360 and PS3 shooters. And at that point, you can’t tell a 13 year-old, ‘But it’s on the Wii.’ Forget it, you know? That’s not what they see or hear. They’re not really interested in any techno-fetishist aspects of look how great it is on the Wii…And, you know, the effort that we put behind multiplayer on that game to basically get by friend codes and provide worldwide match-making and so on and so forth, I actually thought we dove too deep…

…Circling back to the whole mature Wii thing, again SEGA took a gamble, we put out some pretty decent content. I mean, House of the Dead: Overkill and MadWorld are great Wii games. They really are, especially House of the Dead: Overkill. That game is funny…Yes [it did better than MadWorld]. I mean they’re both doing okay and at the end of the day we’ll make our numbers, that’s good. Conduit’s done quite well for us. It’s been slow burn. That’s the other thing you find out about the Wii. It’s not necessarily first 3 weeks like most titles. And DS. It’s a longer burn, actually. So panicked at first, but it’s like okay.

But that begs the question, are we going to do more mature titles for the Wii? And it’s like, probably not. Look at Dead Space. We were stunned. That was my litmus test. Basically, it’s like, okay, you got EA, who can put all the marketing muscle behind this, an established franchise that scored quite well on 360 and PS3. They should be able to actually hit this out of the park, right? We get numbers, real numbers aside from NPD, and I’m like, ‘Woah.’” - Constantine Hantzopoulos, studio director at SEGA

[8bitretroshit]

Just because the games you release blow doesn't mean there's no Mature adience for Wii (though it's probably not even half of PS3/360). Conduit fucking sucks. Aiming with the wiimote is ass and you walk like you're a cross between a slug and a turtle. Online games are a lagfest and about 1-2 people are cheating in every game too. AWESOME

Also isn't Dead Space Wii a fugly rail shooter spin off? A lot of HARDCORE GAMERS who have a Wii also have a PS3/360 by now. Did that guy really expect Dead Space Extraction to be that succesful when there's a prettier NON-rail Dead Space on other consoles for about the same price?

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2010 17:04:26 GMT -5 8bitretroshit said:

Just because the games you release blow doesn't mean there's no Mature adience for Wii (though it's probably not even half of PS3/360). Conduit fucking sucks. Aiming with the wiimote is ass and you walk like you're a cross between a slug and a turtle. Online games are a lagfest and about 1-2 people are cheating in every game too. AWESOME

Also isn't Dead Space Wii a fugly rail shooter spin off? A lot of HARDCORE GAMERS who have a Wii also have a PS3/360 by now. Did that guy really expect Dead Space Extraction to be that succesful when there's a prettier NON-rail Dead Space on other consoles for about the same price?

You pretty much hit it on the head there. You want to sell to a rarely touched demographic, you have to put at least some quality into the title. Wii owners aren't hard-up for mature titles, though the demand is there - you can't bank on them being completely desperate.

[TV Eye]

Mmm...I don't necessarily find this as bad news. I think developers need to realize that as of now, the Wii may be the highest selling console, but only a percentage of those people even research the games they buy. Which means, most sales will be held by first party, shovleware, and movie games.

Teams like Sega and EA are losing money by releasing high-end games for the Wii, as only diehard fans and gamers will put in the time and research needed to discover these games. Suda 51 has the right idea by moving to 360 and PS3 because looking at the highest selling games for those systems (Modern Warfare 2, Uncharted 2, LittleBigPlanet, Assassin's Creed 2) they are unsurprisingly by third parties (well, except for Uncharted).

If other developers take advantage of this "situation" the Wii will eventually lower in sales and the other systems will take the rightful place at top of the food chain. I mean really, if Nintendo had not geared the Wii towards casual, how many people would actually buy one?

I dunno. Brawl was the last game I bought for the Wii, I just don't even consider it a gaming console anymore (now it's only used by me for homebrew).

[Manspeed]

So much for celebrating our favorite company's success.

[Shrikeswind]

Let it go on record that movie games are a basket of both failure and win, so excuse some movie games for they are locked in a stereotype derived from the miserable majority.

Also, in spite of numbers, remember the Rule of the Pomegranate: To get the sweet seeds, one must work through the bitter rind. And there are seeds in this pomegranate.

[Koopaul]

You know what I'm starting to believe? The Wii doomed third party core games from the start.

It was their campaign. Their ads. It created this image, an idea that the Wii is NOT a gaming system but a family party device and is no more than that.

This is not true, but the image it created for itself in the beginning (with its "Wii would like to play" ads and its happy smiling family faces), probably put off many core gamers thinking this isn't the system for them.

If Nintendo had advertised for both family AND mature games perhaps these mentioned titles would have sold better.

[Wildcat]

Since I've played MadWorld, I can say that it's a fun over-the-top action game. It has some flaws (mostly in the audio department's repetition), but I really had a blast with the first two levels thus far. I wanted to play it when it came out, but I'm poor. XD It takes a lot for me to cough up $50 for a game, even one I want. I plan on buying Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom when it comes out, and there's several other games down the pike I want, but it all depends on money.

It's unforunately a hard sale for third party titles that aren't marketed appropriately or enough to be noticed to do well on the Wii. It sucks, but it'll take some major shifts in thought to pull off a coup and get a hot-selling title on the Wii from a third party that's NOT gimmicky/crappy/catering to casuals/etc.