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Post by Fryguy64 on Jun 15, 2009 4:20:47 GMT -5
Koopaul doesn't speak the truth at all. In fact, he's making gurgling noises from his nether-regions and presenting them as some kind of argument about something that has never been in question.
Shigeru Miyamoto is the creator of Mario. It wasn't an accident. 80% of creativity is working within the limitations to hand. Miyamoto recognised the limitations of the hardware and colour palette, as well as his own artistic ability ("I can't draw hair so good") and somehow produced a massively successful, massively popular and massively profitable character who is still the most iconic character in the medium of videogames 28 years later, where these limitations no longer exist.
If that's not outstanding design work, then nothing is.
But the argument that Miyamoto doesn't create stories? Yes, that's true. He creates largely empty avatars, game mechanics and entire worlds in which to play with them. That is what he is good at... that is why he is widely considered the best videogame designer of all time... Because he is not a story writer.
When I play an action game, especially a Mario game, an intro cutscene to set the tone of the game is fine, and an ending video to reward me for my efforts is fine, but anything between those two points stops me from enjoying these fantastic worlds that don't need help.
Super Mario Galaxy had a little too much focus on the whole Rosalina thing. All I needed to know is a huge and ugly fire-breathing turtle has kidnapped the princess and taken her into space. I will need to run around in space, jump on things and collect shit to stop him. I don't need to know about an old comet or Rosalina or the star sprite things.
It's like an old comment in Edge about Space Invaders: "Aliens are trying to land on your planet. Shoot them! That's a good, solid story!" And it's true! I don't need to know the alien's motivation, I just need to know my own motivation... And if a fire-breathing turtle kidnapping a princess isn't sufficient motivation to play one of the most outstanding games of all time with some of the most creative level designs of all time, then you're an idiot.
I wanted to explore this idea further by looking at the top-10 selling games of all time, but I was so surprised by how much they justified my point, it scared me a little. Just be aware, Shigeru Miyamoto has been responsible for nearly all of them... and Nintendo has been responsible for them all. And unless you want to count the slight story that appears in Pokemon Red/Blue, there is not one story-driven game in that list. Not one.
Here's the top 20 best selling games of all time, so you can judge for yourself how important story is for the majority:
1. Wii Sports (45.71 million)
2. Super Mario Bros. (40.23 million)
3. Tetris (35 million)
4. Wii Play (22.98 million)
5. Nintendogs (22.27 million)
6. Pokémon Red/Blue/Green (20.08 million)
7. Super Mario World (20 million)
8. New Super Mario Bros. (18.45 million)
9. Wii Fit (18.22 million)
10. Super Mario Bros. 3 (18 million)
11. Brain Age (17.41 million)
12. Pokémon Diamond/Pearl (16.81 million)
13. Mario Kart Wii (15.4 million)
14. Gran Turismo 3: A-Spec (14.89 million)
15. Mario Kart DS (14.61 million)
16. Pokémon Gold/Silver (14.51 million)
17. Super Mario Land (14 million)
18. Brain Age 2 (13.71 million)
19. Pokémon Ruby/Sapphire (13 million)
20. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas (12 million)
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Post by kirbychu on Jun 15, 2009 4:42:49 GMT -5
I do like games to have story. It helps me get immersed in the game world to know why I'm doing the things I'm doing and to have the chance to get to know the characters outside of the one I'm playing as.
I'm perfectly happy with games not having a story if they're good enough, but I'd still take some story over no story any day. Galaxy was the only time I've ever found a game's story frustrating. Mostly because it felt like the writers forgot where they were going with it by the end. Was the ending supposed to be symbolic of something? I didn't get it at all.
I don't understand the need to purge games of all cutscenes. If you don't want to watch them... skip them?
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regiwi
Pikpik Carrot
Make sure you get my good side... oh wait, I only have good sides!
Posts: 53
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Post by regiwi on Jun 15, 2009 7:28:02 GMT -5
It's like an old comment in Edge about Space Invaders: "Aliens are trying to land on your planet. Shoot them! That's a good, solid story!" Too true, also strange to see Zelda not being on that list at all. I've heard many people say they bought their Nintendo systems (GC Wii etc) in the past just for Zelda alone. Anyway I really couldn't care less about story. I like characters who are humorous, but only as a side distraction, like the lost penguin from SM64 who you take to the mother only for her to say that it's not her baby, so you throw it into the abyss. Or the old man penguin from galaxy who lives on that Bigmouth galaxy. Anyway, my point is that I can't imagine Miyamoto's comment really meaning that much as previous games haven't really ever had much story. Even Rosalina's story was just a side distraction. |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Jun 15, 2009 8:41:13 GMT -5
Story in games is a complex subject. You can tell a story through cutscenes and dialogue... but there's foaming at the mouth on either side of that debate.
What about telling a story through the environment, such as in Bioshock or Portal, where you don't detract from the action itself, but throw the player into a world with an unknown history and let the player uncover it bit-by-bit. Or what about sandbox games (GTA) or MMORPGs (WoW), where the players are directly creating their own stories, but within a world with its own rules.
And that's just it... Even today, the best story-driven games are still those that create a consistent world and let the player explore it at their leisure. The Legend of Zelda does this, but it doesn't do dialogue and rarely does cutscenes.
The world Mario inhabits is made of floating blocks, cartoon characters and enemies, coins that restore health, and bottomless pits. Mario's world doesn't really have a history, and the peculiarities of it are never explained. Pipes grow out of the ground, gorillas throw barrels, bespectacled turtles fly around in clouds and drop spiky turtles on you, dinosaurs poop eggs to use as weapons...
Mario's world is wonderful nonsense, and even the best of the Mario RPGs revel in this and explore it, rather than try to ground it in consistency and familiarity. A cloud who thinks its a frog, a strange man in a pilot's hat who kisses Mario, a bearded anvil creating metal monsters. Or how about a heroic prince who flies around on a winged bean, a lobster christmas tree, Fawful!
This is where I feel Super Paper Mario got it so very wrong - trying to turn Mario's world into something relatable, something explained, something perishable, something almost-real.
I can't and never will be able to relate to Mario's world, but I damn well love stomping dudes in it! Mario's world tells its own strange story, and I fill in the blanks. I don't need cutscenes or lengthy dialogue to do that for me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 9:36:01 GMT -5
THANK you.
That's all I got to say. XD
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Post by kirbychu on Jun 15, 2009 9:51:24 GMT -5
The Legend of Zelda does this, but it doesn't do dialogue and rarely does cutscenes. Are we playing the same Zelda games? |
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Post by Koopaul on Jun 15, 2009 16:52:42 GMT -5
Shigeru Miyamoto is the creator of Mario. It wasn't an accident. 80% of creativity is working within the limitations to hand. Miyamoto recognised the limitations of the hardware and colour palette, as well as his own artistic ability ("I can't draw hair so good") and somehow produced a massively successful, massively popular and massively profitable character who is still the most iconic character in the medium of videogames 28 years later, where these limitations no longer exist. You see right there. The entire creation of Mario (of how he looks) was due to graphical limitations. Miyamoto never intended to make the happy hopping mustachioed hero we know today. He just needed a sprite for the players to play as. It was because of circumstances that Mario ended up being the way he is. Over the years Mario shaped into a true character. But it wasn't all Miyamoto's efforts. It was thanks to the efforts of many. Like I said before, Miyamoto made a skeleton, everyone else made the flesh and blood. And if a fire-breathing turtle kidnapping a princess isn't sufficient motivation to play one of the most outstanding games of all time with some of the most creative level designs of all time, then you're an idiot. True, like yourself I don't need a story to motivate me. But this isn't about motivation to play a game. This is about what lies outside the game. The very fandom of these characters worlds and such. I don't just think about games when I think of the Mario series, I think of a whole entire universe of people and worlds that I love. The things you draw fan art about, the things you enjoy outside the games. |
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Post by Boo Destroyer on Jun 15, 2009 17:01:46 GMT -5
I have absolutely nothing against storyline in games.
When Nintendo does have to throw in storyline, though, they always keep it relatively simple; they don't have to pull Lord of the Rings-type crap left and right confusing us on purpose to make good games.
And yeah, cutscenes make these games all the more interesting, minor characters to boot. Part of the reason I always find myself relating to even the most minor of characters in many games.
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Post by Koopaul on Jun 15, 2009 17:14:10 GMT -5
Well yeah, you don't want anything overdone.
But a story and good characters makes the game last longer than when your just playing it. Its something you keep.
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Post by Manspeed on Jun 15, 2009 17:46:14 GMT -5
You gotta admit that all this stuff lends itself really well to story-based material, which is kinda why I've always wanted an animated Mario movie or TV show proper. Maybe Koopaul can get his story fix there.
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Post by Hiker of Games on Jun 15, 2009 18:14:32 GMT -5
As an aside, I wanted to mention that the limitations of the NES created some pretty amazing things. Specifically, music that originated from the NES (and Gameboy for that matter). Nowadays a lot of games have pretty good music, but rarely anything memorable. The NES was great because of it's audio limitations. You couldn't rely on fancy orchestrated music and earthy sounds to be your background music for a game. Rather, composers were forced to come up with appropriate, catchy tunes for a game. These tunes, when remixed for later games, are consuequently a lot better than newer music.
As for story? I don't mind having some story in my Mario games. It doesn't take anything away, as long as it has its place. A complex story has no place in a Mario platformer, which is fine. A more complicated story is certainly welcome in an RPG. It's part of the reason I love Mario RPGs. Besides simply being better designed than the majority of RPGs on the market, it's a brilliant chance to get a deeper look into the Mario mythos. For me, Super Paper Mario had many flaws, but the story wasn't one of them. Dimentio's plot was little different than Bowser's in Super Mario Galaxy, though it was appropriately more complex given the nature of the genre. The problems were inferior platforming and those damn Pixls.
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Post by Dasher Misire on Jun 15, 2009 18:31:48 GMT -5
Loved Galaxy's story not because I related to it but because it just felt like something out of a Mario RPG... out of a book. I've grown up since I was a kid, I want games with stories. With the exception of Kirby, I haven't touched a non plot focused game for a few months now. Galaxy not only had the fun of Mario 3 and World in 3D, but it had something to draw me in.
I think Galaxy 2 will be amazing, but the lack of plot is something ridiculous on Miyamoto's part. Nevermind that people were in love with the storybook parts, nevermind the director who is basically Miyamoto's successor wanted story in... if he doesn't want plot in even OPTIONAL parts of the game, there won't be.
I would prefer my opinion to not be countered in a harsh manner, because this is simply how I feel. Some people may not want story, but I feel that more plot makes me interested. Nevertheless, Galaxy 2 looks fun and wonderful, most likely due to the kid in me I will probably pick it up. It may not appeal to the adult in me, though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 21:46:32 GMT -5
Wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk wonk Popeye. Sorry dude, but quoted for truth. |
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Post by Koopaul on Jun 15, 2009 21:46:46 GMT -5
For me, Super Paper Mario had many flaws, but the story wasn't one of them. Dimentio's plot was little different than Bowser's in Super Mario Galaxy, though it was appropriately more complex given the nature of the genre. The problems were inferior platforming and those damn Pixls. I like this. Never felt that the story was too dark and serious. Even Count Bleck (with a trouble past and lost lover) was silly and lighthearted... All the villains were hilarious. This game had more humorous parts than serious ones. Tei the Spiffy: Wahaha! I didn't even mention Popeye! Proof that you didn't read my post. |
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Post by Manspeed on Jun 15, 2009 21:48:34 GMT -5
Fryguy's argument about SPM's story seems to be that the game is a platformer. The only problem with that is that it's...Paper Mario, which would otherwise be an RPG. Not to mention, the game isn't exactly a conventional platformer given all the other RPGish stuff they've added to it.
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