Demo Modes in Nintendo Games - Yay or Nay?

[Wildcat]

Just to set up a proper discussion on this, I'd like to discuss how we truly feel about Nintendo's decision to include a demo mode in New Super Mario Bros. Wii that allows the CPU to take over your player to help inexperienced/casual gamers get past trickier parts of the game to be able to conquer it.

As I stated elsewhere, I do not like this idea. I play games for the enjoyment of getting through it. Platformers by default need to have some sense of challenge to be engaging, and this feature is stripping that aspect out of the game. Honestly, I'd rather fail a stage multiple times and then manage to finally best it and feel incredibly hyped about it over getting stuck and pressing a button to let the CPU weave and bop their way past some difficult part merely to see the ending of the game anyday. I think it's a cop-out, and I'm frightened at the potential generation of gamers Nintendo will be suckling with this addition. I don't want to see a Metroid or a Zelda with this mode. It'll complete defeat the purpose of playing it to me. Those two series pride themselves on discovery and exploration, and a demo mode will erase those elements out of existance, forcing you straight through the game with little reward outside of the ending, and not being able to relish the little quirks and secrets that make them special. Zelda and Metroid are the two most important franchises to my gaming heart, and it may be paranoid to begin worrying about this Demo mode sneaking its way into Other M or Zelda Wii/Spirit Trackers, but Nintendo's given me little reason not to be concerned. And it bothers the hell out of me.

Your thoughts?

[Koopaul]

I don't think you'll have to worry about Zelda or Metroid getting this mode. Perhaps we are jumping to conclusions.

[Spud]

This is a potentially dangerous endeavor on Ninty's part.

That is, if this is what I think it is. (i.e. An auto pilot) I certainly have no problem with "Show me what to do." Instructions as long as the player is forced to actually do it.

That of course wouldn't work if puzzles are involved obviously in games like Zelda and Metroid.

Though I have to say I don't like the Idea of an auto pilot.

[Dances in Undergarments]

I don't see why this wouldn't stretch on to Zelda and Metroid games if its successful. But, more notably, I don't see it as a problem.

Its nothing more than the new gameFAQs. Which in itself is nothing more than the new 'Hey dude can you do this bit for me'. Now, I, personally, won't use it - I prefer the challenge, the reward, the satisfaction, etc, etc of doing something myself. But then I don't use gameFAQs to help me get past tricky sections, nor do I get someone else to do them for me. Others probably will - I'll never have to play through a tricky level of my cousin's games, for example, and they'll still be able to see what comes after.

In addition to this, I've already expressed elsewhere another benefit, which could be great for when you have a repeat playthrough of an otherwise good game but with a really crappy section. Yes, the ideal situation would be to not have crappy sections in games, but that won't happen, so this could at least be a bandaid solution to it.

All up, I really don't see what the problem with including it as an option. Which is what it is - an option.

The backlash this has caused on this little forum is mind blowing.

[Johans Nidorino]

I talked about this with a friend, and he said "maybe it should only work in the earlier levels". I thought "why not? Maybe that's all what this is about?". And yet I'm not sure about it. But if it were only in earlier levels, it would be an evolution of how so many Nintendo games since the nineties explain to you how to begin playing them with the intention that you don't even need to read the manual.

If there's a second round after you finish the game, Miyamoto-style, I believe such a feature wouldn't be available there. If there are bonus rooms, I'd expect them to remain hidden in the demo play because they're hidden by definition.

I don't like this the way the journalists narrate it. It would make more sense to me if it were like in puzzle games that show you how to finish a level so that you follow the steps or strategy shown. I'd like to see footage of this demo mode before commenting more on it.

P.S.: The Lost Levels owns.

[Da Robot]

I think we should only start to judge this once we see this "demostration mode" in action, see we can get an idea of what it does.

If this was such a big deal, Nintendo would have shown it off at E3.

[regiwi]

While I hate the concept, I can accept it as long as it doesn't forcibly take over when you die a certain amount of times. I'm pretty sure it will be in the new Zelda, and sadly I know the majority of people who caused it. When the Wii was first coming out my friends were all excited about it, and they were all Xbox and PS fanatics. They played Zelda and enjoyed it, I was actually able to talk about the games to someone other than my cousin so I found it pretty cool. Then they got to a certain point where they couldn't work out a puzzle (as always happens at least once, even in TP for everyone.) That was when they started saying they 'can't be arsed to play through it and were going to play 'real' games like Fifa08 or GTA4 etc' So yes, I can see the arguement for it if they want to attract some 'gamers' who are neither casual, but I doubt sit there looking for the hardest games possible. I dunno if they have a label to be honest.

That said I am not a Yay, but a Nay as for me there is no benefit of this mode.

[Fryguy64]

I am still convinced that the game showing you what to do and then having the player repeat the action is the right way to go. Nintendo has the collective ears of the world, and hand-holding them isn't going to create a new generation of gamers.

It's optional, which means I can choose not to use it. Why not give the player the choice to skip bits they can't do?

Because this is a Mario game. They're very forgiving, and very easy to play. Once you have the basic moves down, you're set for life. If people need hand-holding through Mario, then they're going to struggle to play any other game.

And the fact Nintendo has the patent on this system means that it's only going to show up in Nintendo games. Hurts third parties if gamers can't manage without a demo mode.

[Savage Adam]

I think nobody should care and that you all need a 360 and a gaming PC.

/topic.

All right, I don't wanna start an argument, so let me rephrase that. If the notion of having a little extra help in a video game meant for all ages is all that dreadfull to you, nobody's telling you to buy the game.

[Wildcat]

Some thoughtful replies on here.

Koopaul - Until Nintendo says explicitly that there will not be Demo modes in Zelda or Metroid (or elsewhere), I'll remain concerned. As I said, it's currently nothing more than paranoia, but I need evidence to change my mind.

Spud - If the demo mode works like you say (show me what to do, then let me do it), then I probably would be less annoyed. The auto-pilot (which is how this is coming across to me) is irritating to me.

DiU - Great counter-argument. And I do like the way you explain that it is like a new GameFAQs (which I'm sure has Gamespot shaking in its boots). It is an option, but to me, it's like I said above: it's like getting the answers to a multiple choice test, and knowing that it's there is going to make more people use it than not. Why do I care? That's a good question...I guess I don't want to see gamers of the next generation miss out on the things I relish about gaming...which is a little self-centered, yes. And skipping crappy parts is a benefit of this concept...depending on how it works, of course. Very good points.

Johans - Perhaps that's the issue - the way journalists are presenting it to us. We haven't seen it, but the way it is sounding is stoking the fires of hatred...or something.

Da Robot - See you soon, man. I'll miss your WiiWare/DSiWare updates.

Regiwi - Now there's something else to worry about - the game forcibly taking over. I would be so pissed off if that happened. And I'm sorry that your friends gave up on Z:TP over a puzzle...maybe it's already too late and people really do want to get through games with help. XD Good points.

Fry - I agree. If this is merely in the same vein as "here's a clip showing you what to do, so go do it!", I don't mind this anywhere near as much. All of your points are excellent, and that last thought could be what's irking me the most. It's creating a generation of gamers who will bitch if the game doesn't help them through it, and most third parties will not build in such a mode right off the bat (if this takes off, then they will, and I'll be a sad gamer).

After reading all of these posts, I have to say that it's the potential of what this little feature can do to gaming as a whole that scares me. It could completely change gaming from a challenge to a cakewalk, and could dumb down the experience into shallow, dull exercises of tedium. And I don't want to see that happen. If it does, I'm out. I'll happily retreat to gaming's past and rejoice in its history. Option or not, this mode has the capability to weaken the "soul" of games, and I think that's the main factor in my annoyance.

Edit - Combo - Get me a 360 and I'll go along with that. ;D

[Nester the Lark]

I think you guys are blowing this way out of proportion. As Da Robot said, I think you should wait and see how it actually works before you start labeling it as the future downfall of all video games. You guys have gotten very passionate and opinionated over something you don't yet fully understand.

Case in point, way back when I first heard that the The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time would have automatic jumping, I thought that that was the stupidest thing I had ever heard of. Why would I want Link to jump over obstacles on his own? Furthermore, what's the point of even having jumping in the game at all if it's completely automatic?

Of course, once I experienced it for myself, I realized that it wasn't what I thought, and now I think it's a pretty brilliant mechanic.

Also, on a second point, you guys know I'm a fan of hard games, like Contra, right? I do appreciate the high challenge of those games, but I also realize that high challenge is not to everyone's taste. If I were to adopt the attitude that all games should be super hard like Contra, and if you can't deal with that, then you're just a pansy who shouldn't be playing video games in the first place; well, then that would make me sound pretty elitist and narrow-minded, wouldn't it? Well, how is that different from what you're saying about games that are less challenging than Contra?

And for my final point, Excitepants likened it to a more convenient GameFAQs. Personally, I think it's more like a feature that we already have in many of games, and have existed in games for decades: cheat codes. Not everyone likes to use cheat codes, some people like to use them only if they get really stuck (like me), some people like to use them all the time or just mess around. But cheat codes are optional, just like Demo Play! Nintendo has only streamlined it. (Let he, who has never used the 30 life code in Contra, cast the first stone. )

And the bottom line is that games are supposed to be fun. If using Demo Play or a cheat code allows anyone to enjoy his/her game more, I see nothing wrong with it.

Sorry for the long post.

[Koopaul]

The reason I don't think it will be in Zelda or Metroid is because those are Nintendo's most hardcore games. They know that the players who want to play those games won't need any help.

New Super Mario Bros. Wii however is a social game where you want many people to get involved. Perhaps the whole family? Well because this game is inviting to so many people there are bound to be some who will need help.

That's what I think Nintendo is going to do. They'll put this feature in games that appeal to the "new gamer"

[Wildcat]

Nester - Heh, wonderful points there, too, my friend. I admit to having a paranoia about this, which is mostly unsubstantiated...but it's still irksome.

The Zelda example is nice, but it also works with the current mindset of me (and others) right now - we haven't seen it in motion, it currently sounds threatening and/or stupid, and until we do get our hands on it, the premise bothers me. When NSMBWii is out and we can see how it works, maybe then my fears will disappear.

As for your bit about Contra and other hard games of that nature, you have a great point there that I can't really argue. That is true - I'm being narrow-minded about a feature making games easier. It could be a great thing. We won't know until we try it out. But the way the demo mode has been presented makes me question its inclusion. Maybe I'm a freak who doesn't want Big Brother CPU playing my games for me. If I bought it, I want to get through it. And perhaps that's an outdated way of thinking in this modern age, but I want to get my money's worth, and not skip out on bits that are a little too tough to get on the first try. I am rambling off a bit, so I apologise.

Lastly, I like the GameFAQs argument a lot. It's very comparable. As a gamer who rarely cheats (I do admit to the 30 live code in Contra XD ), it may not be as much of a selling point to me (clearly, since it's annoying me) to have the game play itself, but there is some merit in looking at it through a FAQ lens.

And well, you're right. If it helps people enjoy themselves, then great. I may not like it (or use it), but it's not being made for me.

Koopaul - A good point. It is a social game, and figuring the way Nintendo will likely market it (to families and such, given the Wii's demographic), it makes sense to look at the demo mode as a selling point. It may bother me (and may explain why my parents never got into games as much as me back then...no help! ), but in the end, it may prove to be something that is not quite as devastating as it is making itself out to be.

I'm still ticked about it, but you guys have brought up some fantastic sides of the argument I didn't see at first, and my initial anger has mildly subsided. ^_^ A delightful debate.

[Koopaul]

Yeah I'm glad how well this went. More topics should be like this from now on.

[Sqrt2]

Jun 17, 2009 3:30:40 GMT -5 Fryguy64 said:

Because this is a Mario game. They're very forgiving, and very easy to play.

Except if the Mario game in question has either ball-rolling or ray-surfing bits.

Anyway as far as tutorials go, I think they should A) only be in the early levels, and B) optional/skippable. I don't want to be told how to do something that I already know how to do on my 100th time of playing.