Smashboards tweak SSBB to create "Balanced Brawl"

[Prince~Of~Light]

I've made this small line what I think what SSB is about after playing all SSB-games little now today.

It's just a fighting party game that was meant to be Happy-Go-Lucky World Of Nintendo going random, goofy, and completely nuts. (Casual Players.)
And it IS competitive. If players compete at it. (Competitive Players)

I think that must be the borderline between casual play and competitive play. That SSB can be (and has been) made casual or competitive.
I know that Sakurai didn't want it to be competitive, but those Stop Having Fun-Guys could just say F**K THIS for Brawl and just play Melee so much as they want.
Brawl again is more fun-packed wackiness for casual players to enjoy. Tripping, anyone?

But aside of casual play meant to be fun and for lulz, also we have to know that the competitive people have fun too when playing. Many people must see that. (-lvl-)b

After this post, I'll just play SSB-series like I want.

[Shrikeswind]

Beautifully put. I wish more people thought like you.

[Prince~Of~Light]

Thanx bunch! (-lvl-)b

Sorry still for the double post- (-ll-)

[parrothead]

Every time I think of SSB pro gamers/cyber athletes, I think of their scary-looking glitch moves. The power of glitches is one of the things that made Street Fighter II so popular, and that's probably what these competitive players want. This also reminds me of the Press Your Luck contestant Michael Larson, who memorized the pattern on the Press Your Luck board, and won the most amount of money in the game show: $110,237 (equal to £72,341.31). Several people love to hack in order to win better.

My only encounter with a SSB pro gamer was a few years ago when I stopped at this local game store called "Black Box" (now out of business), and saw a SSB pro gamer. I thought I was one of the best SSB series players, but when I got beaten by this pro gamer who used a lot of wave-dashing and dancing, and beat me every time. This changed me from a pro gamer to a research gamer.

[Johans Nidorino]

Feb 26, 2010 17:20:03 GMT -5 parrothead said:

I thought I was one of the best SSB series players, but when I got beaten by this pro gamer who used a lot of wave-dashing and dancing, and beat me every time. This changed me from a pro gamer to a research gamer.

You still kick ass when playing normally, though.

See, this is why I'm always enthusiastic about playing with you guys. Members of a Nintendo geek forum are likely to have fun using any character or stage and struggling to break the Smash Ball before their opponents, the way it was meant to be.

Now about "Balanced Brawl", I have nothing against it since I've not been forced to use it. The people who did it are fans like you and me but with a great interest in mathematics and perfecting other people's works. Look at those hacks with music or textures added. They're similar to this (they're a fanboy answer to "what should have this game been to be cool"), except those are artistic while this one is more scientific.

The competitive vs. casual subject is clear, though. I'll always pity anyone who complain to me for choosing the Spear Pillar stage when we're not in a tournament.

[Shrikeswind]

It's the artistic edge I like about texture/music hacks, especially since it's theoretically possible to make Vader out of Ganondorf (a character that would be absolutely BAD-ASS in Brawl, but isn't in the cards, so it's gotta be fan-made,) while the scientific edge sickens me because it's altering the actual gameplay to make the game more "balanced," which really means you're editting the game because someone doesn't know how to play it. It's all part of being a fan to dream of silly things like Vaderdorf choking Pikachu to the Imperial March, and it's always a gas to see it in action. It's part of being a whiny bitch when you complain about the engine.

[Prince~Of~Light]

Feb 26, 2010 17:20:03 GMT -5 parrothead said:

My only encounter with a SSB pro gamer was a few years ago when I stopped at this local game store called "Black Box" (now out of business), and saw a SSB pro gamer. I thought I was one of the best SSB series players, but when I got beaten by this pro gamer who used a lot of wave-dashing and dancing, and beat me every time. This changed me from a pro gamer to a research gamer.

I'm a research gamer too! It's like more fun to research the characters and then beat the heck out of guys by the tricks that might been used in the games- Maybe by the way their moves and abilities from their games have been translated to SSB, hm?

Dash Dancing is still little annoying, but then Mr.Entertainah uses the slapstick humor to sweep it out- (-lvl-)
:
Picky Minch in Brawl? Get me in! Texture hacks are pretty fun.
Let's still not wish that Brawl doesn't turn into a MUGEN by excessive hacking. (Roy and Waluigi in Brawl)

[Shrikeswind]

Actually, that'd be fun.

Just got home from a tournament I didn't want to enter in the first place. God, that was annoying. $12 for an intentional loss, AND the prizes sucked. I was better off just hanging out, watching and playing RuneScape, watching YouTube, and eating pizza. Get my money's worth. Met a girl, though, that was nice.

[KajiFox]

So the questions standing is: Is the competitive side of Brawl enough to change the games mechanics? Like TsukushiKun said, it's a happy-go-lucky fighting game, but it also has a strong competitive nature (Tourney Mode,) as well as an arsenal of competitive players.

Starting from the basic Brawl side of the argument, I love the random tripping, stage effects, and items. (Though I wish they hadn't killed off a few of the items from Melee...)They make Brawl a fun casual game. It's an easy game to pick up and play instantly without much thought, you can just start beating the crap out of PIkachu. For those of us who enjoy this type of playing, it's a real blast. Competition isn't much of a big deal, therefor the fairness of characters aren't that big of a deal, because it's just for fun.

Then there's the competitive end of Brawl, for those players who enjoy competition and having a blast in tourneys. It's a different type of fun. These players start looking and researching the mechanics of the game. Fairness applies a lot here, and instead of banning certain characters at tourneys (Metaknight,) the players are developing a way to make the characters fairer. (Because come on people, Metaknight is absurd. Even if he can be defeated.) Random tripping, items and stage effects are factors that can be calculated in skillful matches, but a lot of the time they have the power to change the standings of a match. So while these matches still can rely on skill, they can be randomly altered by the luck of the draw. Now I'm not saying that items completely make the matches end with someone randomly winning, but it's that little instance that competitive players do not wish to have. They don't want that tiny chance of a match turning around, they want it based on skill and only skill.

In between the two ends of it, I'm gonna put chaingrabbing. Because chaingrabbing is a competitive tactic, but I don't believe it's fair. I've seen a Dedede player constantly KO another just by using his down throw, racking up the % number and finishing with any move.

So to sum it up again, the game can be what ever you want it for. So I guess I am in favor of the competitive aspects of Brawl being slightly tweaked, so it can bring about a more balanced style of competitive play. Will I still play Brawl non-competitively? Absolutely. But when it comes to competition, fairness is very essential to me.

[Shrikeswind]

I add in an annoying, unfair little trick I've fallen victim to once in a doubles tournament: Catch. Basically, you have one guy left, and the other team decides to start up on you. Rather than give you half a chance, they surround you and one of them grabs you, smacking you a couple times before the character drops you. Immediately afterwards, the other guy does the exact same thing. It's unescapable and can lead to a very easy KO if you get surrounded, and in a 1-vs.-2 match, that's not only possible, but inevitable. I don't favor tweaking the competitive edge, I favor banning certain unfair strategies such as chaingrabs and catch. I don't favor banning characters, and stages and items don't have much point to being banned because every strategy, from stalling to item-chasing to forcing your enemy into a danger zone such as the road on Big Blue, is a strategy that can be used by either edge of the sword, and with enough skill, it can be used to win. I mean, the most skilled item grabbers will get the most items, and will likely know what to do with them, i.e., "If I grab this hammer and the head falls off, I want to be nowhere near it, so I should keep moving. If I grab this Poke Ball, I should throw it downwards so that it can't be caught and used against me." The most skilled stallers will be able to survive long enough to where it becomes a question of which hit will do it, i.e., "If I hide down here, I can't die, and not being able to die, I'll be able to do damage to my enemies until they're weakened. Then, I can avoid them until they're in a spot I can KO them." The most skilled stage-killers will know how to use the stage to their advantage, i.e., "If I knock him into the river on the right side, he may be able to get up on the left, if I can lure my opponent to the Chimera, and I get away quickly enough, he'll die." These are all strategies used in battle. Hell, you see it in Star Wars, where Darth Maul relies on the doors so he can single out Qui-Gonn Jinn, that's a stage-advantage. When General Grievous gets in his monowheel bike, that's a stall tactic. And later, it fails because Obi-Wan shoots him with a random blaster on the floor. Guess what that one is? Was Obi-Wan more skilled than Grievous? You bet your ass he was. I mean, 1 sword on 4 and he managed to disarm him, force him into a retreat, negate the retreat, create a weakness, and finally kill him. And Grievous was a renowned Jedi killer! No figure in fiction or fact has ever used cheap tactics in an otherwise fair fight, because a fair fight demands lack of cheap tactics. If I were fighting in Hyrule Temple with fucking Assist Trophies popping up randomly, I'd be more apt to accept being chainthrown and whatnot since we're fighting dirty, but the fact is we're fighting clean, and dirty tactics are not acceptable in a clean fight. (And personally, I prefer a dirty Brawl. The Smash universe is so hodge-podge that using dirty tricks actually looks fun due to how bizzare said tricks usually are. I mean, watching an anthropomorphic hedgehog throw a turtle shell at a gorilla in a United States military base? How random is that? And so no matter how dirty the trick is, it's makes for a hilarious fight.)

[KajiFox]

I add in an annoying, unfair little trick I've fallen victim to once in a doubles tournament: Catch. Basically, you have one guy left, and the other team decides to start up on you. Rather than give you half a chance, they surround you and one of them grabs you, smacking you a couple times before the character drops you. Immediately afterwards, the other guy does the exact same thing. It's unescapable and can lead to a very easy KO if you get surrounded, and in a 1-vs.-2 match, that's not only possible, but inevitable. I don't favor tweaking the competitive edge, I favor banning certain unfair strategies such as chaingrabs and catch.

That would be tweaking the competitive edge, sure it's not on a hacking level, but it's still trying to do the same thing. The only difference is, hacking can eliminate the problem physically. Banning will still have to be used, but requires somebody to monitor the entire situation, and pointing fingers will inevitably happen. Things like catch are easier to spot.

I don't favor banning characters, and stages and items don't have much point to being banned because every strategy, from stalling to item-chasing to forcing your enemy into a danger zone such as the road on Big Blue, is a strategy that can be used by either edge of the sword, and with enough skill, it can be used to win.

Very true, but the element of luck is still there.

I mean, the most skilled item grabbers will get the most items, and will likely know what to do with them, i.e., "If I grab this hammer and the head falls off, I want to be nowhere near it, so I should keep moving. If I grab this Poke Ball, I should throw it downwards so that it can't be caught and used against me."

The hammerhead falling off is not considered skill. It's considered luck if the hammerhead stays on. It's considered to be unlucky, if you get Goldeen in your pokeball. So that being said, random factors are a no-no with competitive players.

The most skilled stallers will be able to survive long enough to where it becomes a question of which hit will do it, i.e., "If I hide down here, I can't die, and not being able to die, I'll be able to do damage to my enemies until they're weakened. Then, I can avoid them until they're in a spot I can KO them."

Avoiding death is an exploit and should not be used it competitive play. Though, I think that is already prohibited.

The most skilled stage-killers will know how to use the stage to their advantage, i.e., "If I knock him into the river on the right side, he may be able to get up on the left, if I can lure my opponent to the Chimera, and I get away quickly enough, he'll die." These are all strategies used in battle.

It can also appear on top of you, and you die instantly. Whose skill is that?

Hell, you see it in Star Wars, where Darth Maul relies on the doors so he can single out Qui-Gonn Jinn, that's a stage-advantage.

When General Grievous gets in his monowheel bike, that's a stall tactic. And later, it fails because Obi-Wan shoots him with a random blaster on the floor. Guess what that one is? Was Obi-Wan more skilled than Grievous? You bet your ass he was. I mean, 1 sword on 4 and he managed to disarm him, force him into a retreat, negate the retreat, create a weakness, and finally kill him. And Grievous was a renowned Jedi killer! No figure in fiction or fact has ever used cheap tactics in an otherwise fair fight, because a fair fight demands lack of cheap tactics.

Not gonna go there.

If I were fighting in Hyrule Temple with fucking Assist Trophies popping up randomly, I'd be more apt to accept being chainthrown and whatnot since we're fighting dirty, but the fact is we're fighting clean, and dirty tactics are not acceptable in a clean fight.

So what you're saying is... items are dirty tactics just like chaingrabbing?...

(And personally, I prefer a dirty Brawl. The Smash universe is so hodge-podge that using dirty tricks actually looks fun due to how bizzare said tricks usually are. I mean, watching an anthropomorphic hedgehog throw a turtle shell at a gorilla in a United States military base? How random is that? And so no matter how dirty the trick is, it's makes for a hilarious fight.)

A hilarious fight indeed, but it would not be considered a competitive one. Competitors want raw character on character skill with no extra factors. The competitive crowd is way bigger than the casual one, so trying to find a tournament that accepts items is very close to impossible. It's that simple. Dirty tricks will always be used in Brawl, because they're there. What you're suggesting is that people simply outlaw the technique (That currently should be the case,) which requires self discipline against temptation and also the ability to stop yourself from accidentally using it.


So as a solution, the developers of BBrawl are removing the the ability to use character specific dirty moves in competitive matches altogether. The real problem you're going to face, is the extremely large competitive fans of Brawl. If you want to enter a tournament with items on, you're gonna have to search awhile.

[Fryguy64]

We've come full circle here, I feel...

Smash Bros. is one of those games that's always going to be more fun when played by people of a similar skill level to yourself. As a moderate player, I don't like coming up against newbies who don't know what they're doing, or against skilled players who destroy me instantly.

I like a challenge, but going up against a person who can defeat me without even trying does not present a challenge I can surmount, or indeed would want to surmount. I don't have the time to become extremely good at this one game. I have other games to play, not to mention a life outside of the game to live.

What this BBrawl edit says to me is that the elite players of the game have corralled together and are producing a subset of the game that provides a fair challenge amongst themselves, eradicating minor imbalances that make masters of certain characters near-impossible to beat.

I don't have to worry about them or their game, as the game as it stands is enough for me. I lose with Meta-Knight, I don't know any special techniques, but I'm pretty good at the game. I will play as anyone, and am just as likely to win or lose with anyone. And luckily the people on my friends list are of much the same level.

[Shrikeswind]

Mar 3, 2010 0:35:07 GMT -5 KajiFox said:

That would be tweaking the competitive edge, sure it's not on a hacking level, but it's still trying to do the same thing. The only difference is, hacking can eliminate the problem physically. Banning will still have to be used, but requires somebody to monitor the entire situation, and pointing fingers will inevitably happen. Things like catch are easier to spot.

But then it's left up to them to decide which character is fine and which isn't. If you simply ban the strategy, the strategy will be caught on. If you hack the game, you are able to say "Okay, well, I like Dedede, so he can't chaingrab." Even though he can. Easily.

The hammerhead falling off is not considered skill. It's considered luck if the hammerhead stays on. It's considered to be unlucky, if you get Goldeen in your pokeball. So that being said, random factors are a no-no with competitive players.

No, it's knowing what to do with your failure that takes skill. I don't want to be anywhere near that hammerhead, since someone else is going to want to grab it, and swinging that handle around doesn't protect me or it one iota.

Avoiding death is an exploit and should not be used it competitive play. Though, I think that is already prohibited.

Avoiding death isn't an exploit. It's called playing defensive. And whether your using the stage or your shield, it's the same end result, you don't die. If you're stupid enough to be at 300% and roll into a Falcon Punch, you played your defensive game poorly, likewise, if you're stupid enough to be at 300% on top of Hyrule Temple staring down DK, well, guess where you're ending up.

It can also appear on top of you, and you die instantly. Whose skill is that?

The Chimera cannot appear on top of you. This is coded into the game so that the Chimera appears where you are not.

So what you're saying is... items are dirty tactics just like chaingrabbing?...

I'm saying if you consider items unfair, you have to consider chaingrabbing unfair. If I'm going to fight a competitive battle with items off, Final Destination, blah-blah-blah, I expect a fair fight, which means no chaingrabbing or catch, because neither depends on skill. Any noob can spam Dedede's Down-Throw. In fact, many noobs do.

A hilarious fight indeed, but it would not be considered a competitive one.

Now you're pretending I was actually implying that would be a good competitive fight.

The competitive crowd is way bigger than the casual one, so trying to find a tournament that accepts items is very close to impossible.

AHAHAHAHAHA-oh, you were serious....Look, fact is, if someone wants to create a tournament for some reason, they have a set of rules they can go by because someone made them. But are you really trying to tell me that of all the people who own Brawl, very few actually use all the options? Because if that were the case, the options would have been gone by Melee.

[Tina]

BBrawl to me, isn't something to get all worked up about. I love playing BBrawl for the unhindered pure skill-based competition with no random events that alter the match. Anything unexpected in BBrawl is a mindgame from your opponent, and anything unfair is just skill based. There's no coin tosses, no rolls of the dice.

However, it's not like people who play BBrawl are instantly hardcore pros who despise all other types of gamers. I prefer competitive play, but I'm not about to throw a fit about casual gamers. Likewise those people who don't enjoy BBrawl as much as I do should just continue playing the way they like without crying about it.

[KajiFox]

Mar 3, 2010 9:18:41 GMT -5 Fryguy64 said:

What this BBrawl edit says to me is that the elite players of the game have corralled together and are producing a subset of the game that provides a fair challenge amongst themselves, eradicating minor imbalances that make masters of certain characters near-impossible to beat.

You have to look below the surface. I have to tell you, in Melee I could never wavedash when I wanted to. Wavedashing was one of those elite pro-tactics that you absolutely MUST use, and I just couldn't get myself to actually do it when I wanted to. In Brawl, I was so happy they removed the ability to Wavedash, because it made the playing field a little more balanced.
What BBrawl is actually doing is eliminating cheap maneuvers and imperfections that many characters have. It's giving Brawl an arsenal of even fighters. That being said, everyone's play style is different, which is why most people have different main characters that they use. But currently, not all characters are as even as each other. Though they are VERY close to being even, there is still a few bugs to work out. Like Dedede's chaingrabbing. (UGH)
Rod trains hard with his Metaknight and loves Metaknight's playing style. How unfair is it to Rod, when he can't enter any tournies with his main?
I'll say it again, the game can be what ever you want it to be for. If competitive matches and BBrawl isn't for you, then don't participate in games that play like that, find ones that play like you want them to.

Mar 3, 2010 13:58:33 GMT -5 Shrikeswind said:

But then it's left up to them to decide which character is fine and which isn't. If you simply ban the strategy, the strategy will be caught on. If you hack the game, you are able to say "Okay, well, I like Dedede, so he can't chaingrab." Even though he can. Easily.

Thus, the people who are left to decide which characters are fine and those who aren't, those people in charge ban Metaknight and Dedede. Rather than just eliminating a character, they're making adjustments to eliminate cheap maneuvers such as chaingrabbing.

No, it's knowing what to do with your failure that takes skill. I don't want to be anywhere near that hammerhead, since someone else is going to want to grab it, and swinging that handle around doesn't protect me or it one iota.

The failure of that hammerhead flying off was brought about by random chance.
I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I am not saying there is no skill in item matches. I'm simply saying those little random instances of chance are ruled out in competitive matches.

Avoiding death isn't an exploit. It's called playing defensive. And whether your using the stage or your shield, it's the same end result, you don't die. If you're stupid enough to be at 300% and roll into a Falcon Punch, you played your defensive game poorly, likewise, if you're stupid enough to be at 300% on top of Hyrule Temple staring down DK, well, guess where you're ending up.

That's stage positioning, and there's a very thin line between that and camping. In a timed match (As most are in competitive matches,) if you are one life ahead and you run away to stay alive and win the match because the timer ended, what type of skill is that? Is it skill that you picked a faster character than your opponent? Because yes, you can ultimately keep yourself from your opponent at all times depending on your character.

Stage positioning is extremely tactical, but again it depends on how it is approached and how it is maintained.

The Chimera cannot appear on top of you. This is coded into the game so that the Chimera appears where you are not.

I don't know how many times I've been hit flying (where I can recover and live,) and it appears right by me, eats me, and I fly off and die.

I'm saying if you consider items unfair, you have to consider chaingrabbing unfair. If I'm going to fight a competitive battle with items off, Final Destination, blah-blah-blah, I expect a fair fight, which means no chaingrabbing or catch, because neither depends on skill. Any noob can spam Dedede's Down-Throw. In fact, many noobs do.

I believe I did consider chaingrabbing unfair, and catch for that matter.

Now you're pretending I was actually implying that would be a good competitive fight.

It's not a good competitive fight. It's not a competitive fight at all. At least if you were attending an item-less tourney.

AHAHAHAHAHA-oh, you were serious....Look, fact is, if someone wants to create a tournament for some reason, they have a set of rules they can go by because someone made them. But are you really trying to tell me that of all the people who own Brawl, very few actually use all the options? Because if that were the case, the options would have been gone by Melee.

No, what I'm saying is the large number of competitive players who play Brawl, rarely use all the options. Sakurai didn't want Brawl to be competitive in the first place, so the options were kept in Brawl. In fact, more options were added, probably to keep Brawl players even further away from serious competition.