|
|
Post by Fryguy64 on Jun 7, 2010 6:05:48 GMT -5
I love the art style in that manga, and I think it does an amazing job of bringing the Pokemon world to life in a way that the budget-constricted anime often struggles to do.
However, I agree that the liberties they take with the story and "fainting" Pokemon (often by slicing them in two) takes away some of the childish charm that Pokemon is so often remembered for.
What's interesting is if you look over some early game art, especially Pokemon Stadium, is that Poliwhirl is given pride of place amongst the other Pokemon more prevalent in the anime.
I disagree that anything licensed must therefore be canonical though. Canon means an agreed single narrative, while what we have here are several separate tellings of the same story that occasionally cross over. In my eyes, the game is canonical and the various manga and anime are retellings. I would not say the "Orange Island League" was canonical, for example.
|
|
|
|
Post by Johans Nidorino on Jun 7, 2010 9:45:28 GMT -5
What's interesting is if you look over some early game art, especially Pokemon Stadium, is that Poliwhirl is given pride of place amongst the other Pokemon more prevalent in the anime. That's true and odd... Poliwhirl also appeared in the original logo for the Tokyo Pokémon Center. I reckon these and other privileges given to Poliwhirl could have had to do with it being Tajiri's favorite Pokémon. |
|
|
|
Post by Shrikeswind on Jun 7, 2010 20:17:15 GMT -5
Not to argue a sane point, but we're not discussing whether the licensed material is canon to the games. It's whether content from the licensed material is able to be canonized, such as with Johans' example about Silver. And which alternate universe fits the games the best. Obviously the manga has the benefit of Tajiri's interest, but the anime has the benefit of not taking so many liberties with regards to the overlying plot (I mean yeah, inventing new towns is a bit of a liberty, but as a weekly series trying to fill up space between games, these liberties become surprisingly necessary. I mean, if Ash just cleared through Kanto with no filler, you'd have to wait a long-ass time before he went to Johto. Likewise going from Johto to Hoenn, Hoenn to Sinnoh, etc. So you have to have your HopHopHop Towns and your Orange Archipelagos. Though I must say, HopHopHop Town more than accounted for its lack of reality by introducing the awesomeness that is Psyduck.)
|
|
|
|
Post by TV Eye on Jun 7, 2010 20:33:07 GMT -5
Oh jeez, Pokemon Adventures...
I love how it's unanimously agreed upon that making the gym leaders and elite four evil was an AWFUL decision.
But let's think about the anime for a second. Ash got to Indigo Plateau with a Pikachu, Bulbasaur, and Squirtle. Let's also not forget that he had an untrained Muk, Kingler, and Charizard. Am I the only one questioning how ridiculous this is? Richie, the kid who won had everything Ash had, but they were weaker.
And, what happened to the Elite Four? Bruno appeared once in an episode with a giant Onix, so we know there is an Elite Four, but why weren't they at the Pokemon League?
You'd think that the trainers who fought all eight gym leaders would have incredible Pokemon that would annihilate Ash's team in the first round considering Ash only earned, like 3 badges on his own. All other badges were practically given to him.
|
|
|
|
Post by Fryguy64 on Jun 8, 2010 3:28:04 GMT -5
But let's think about the anime for a second. Ash got to Indigo Plateau with a Pikachu, Bulbasaur, and Squirtle. Let's also not forget that he had an untrained Muk, Kingler, and Charizard. Am I the only one questioning how ridiculous this is? Not at all! It's just some of us had that conversation 10 years ago ;D Ash was notoriously daft with his Pokemon. He gave away his Butterfree and Pidgeot. He had a Kingler, Tauros, Muk and Snorlax that he barely ever used. He never evolved his Bulbasaur or Squirtle (despite enough opportunities to). Charizard inexplicably didn't obey him despite having all the badges. Good thing he has a Pikachu that can defeat Ground types and super-powerful Pokemon! Someone at a Pokemon forum I used to frequent worked out that by the time Ash had finished the Pokemon League, his Pikachu would have to have had impossible over-level-100 stats in order to take out some of the Pokemon he did with one hit (ignoring the ground types, of course). But he'd have rubbish defense. |
|
|
|
Post by kirbychu on Jun 8, 2010 3:43:38 GMT -5
Ash being a bit of an idiot is one of the reasons I like the anime more than the manga. I found it a bit boring reading about somebody who is an amazing trainer and wins all the time. It's a lot more interesting to me to watch someone who always believes he'll pull through by sheer force of will, but loses half the time. And although Pikachu was always defeating Ground types in the early episodes, I still find that a hell of a lot less ridiculous than Red's evolving-devolving Eevee or the legendary birds being combined into one three-headed mega Pokémon. That was the point I gave up on the manga, and from what I've heard the "Mask of Ice" stuff wouldn't have changed my mind any.  I don't think any events from any media other than the games have any bearing on anything. It's obvious that Game Freak keep an eye on the anime and manga, and take some inspiration from each of them, but I wouldn't believe anything from either of them was true in the games unless it's specifically stated in the games. |
|
|
|
Post by Johans Nidorino on Jun 8, 2010 8:32:16 GMT -5
Not to argue a sane point, but we're not discussing whether the licensed material is canon to the games. It's whether content from the licensed material is able to be canonized, such as with Johans' example about Silver. That's correct. And, what happened to the Elite Four? Bruno appeared once in an episode with a giant Onix, so we know there is an Elite Four, but why weren't they at the Pokemon League? As we know, during the arcs that involve the first three generations of regions, while the Elite Four exist as leading Trainers (they are the closest definition of a "Pokémon master"), the Pokémon League seems to consist of a mere tournament between Trainers. This is not going to be different in the Sinnoh arc. However, throughout the whole Sinnoh journey, Ash has eventually met with the local Elite Four and Cynthia, and the latter has been seen accepting challenges of Lucian, Aaron and informal challenges of titleless Trainers. There's a chance something involving Ash vs. the Elite Four could happen, who knows? Anyway, ironically, the filler Orange League is like a game-wise Pokémon League of sorts, with 4 titular Trainers and one Champion you battle after defeating them, far from involving a tournament. |
|
|
|
Post by Fryguy64 on Jun 8, 2010 9:28:08 GMT -5
Not to argue a sane point, but we're not discussing whether the licensed material is canon to the games. It's whether content from the licensed material is able to be canonized, such as with Johans' example about Silver. The point I was making is that the official canon borrows aspects from these other media, at which point only that aspect becomes canonical. Whatever you call the manga/anime (uncanon, alt. canon, alt. universe, etc. etc.) it doesn't change the fact that they're subservient to the games. It's like Star Wars. The three six movies are canonical. The expanded universe is allowed to be canonical so long as it doesn't conflict with information in the three six movies. However, the movies may also refer to the expanded universe from time to time, at which point that particular aspect becomes canonical (e.g. a character, trait, planet, etc.) Pokemon is like Star Wars. Didn't think I'd be arguing THAT when I got up this morning Poliwhirl is Red's main Pokemon in the Pokemon Adventures manga. That's where I assumed it came from. |
|
|
|
Post by Manspeed on Jun 8, 2010 9:43:48 GMT -5
Dude, this sounds like the coolest thing ever. How could you have give up after that?  |
|
|
|
Post by kirbychu on Jun 8, 2010 10:15:51 GMT -5
Poliwhirl is Red's main Pokemon in the Pokemon Adventures manga. That's where I assumed it came from. I think what Johans was saying is that maybe both of those things happened because Poliwhirl is Tajiri's favourite Pokémon. It makes sense - Red was kind of representing Tajiri (what with Satoshi being one of his default names). Dude, this sounds like the coolest thing ever. How could you have give up after that? It sounds like the coolest thing ever in the same way that Sonic the Hedgehog with guns and motorbikes sounds like the coolest thing ever. A kind of 'so bad it's awful' type of coolest thing ever. |
|
|
|
Post by Manspeed on Jun 8, 2010 12:09:45 GMT -5
Sonic the Hedgehog with guns and motorbikes sounds like the antithesis of cool, sorry to say. |
|
|
|
Post by Fryguy64 on Jun 8, 2010 12:21:29 GMT -5
Sonic the Hedgehog with guns and motorbikes sounds like the antithesis of cool, sorry to say. That was the point, I feel. |
|
|
|
Post by Manspeed on Jun 8, 2010 13:50:19 GMT -5
Yeah but while that doesn't sound cool any which way you slice it, the thing about the Legendary Birds does sound cool, which is why I questioned Kirb's position on the matter.
|
|
|
|
Post by kirbychu on Jun 8, 2010 14:02:07 GMT -5
No... it doesn't sound cool.
If Mario and Yoshi were involved in a teleporter accident and became fused into one character named Moshi, a red mustachéd Yoshi with a cap, who had all the abilities of both characters, that would be as cool as Zapmolcuno. Not cool at all.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2010 14:57:35 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Tei can lecture you more on this. Alas, it's been so long since I've read anything more than summaries for Pokemon Adventures that I don't have any decent examples off the top of my head. Anyway... I quite liked Pokemon Adventures. People bemoan that half of the Kanto gym leaders and the Elite Four are evil/part of Team Rocket, but it's different from the anime and games, you know? Not necessarily better, but definitely fresh. The same characters in-game, save the Champion of each generation (Blue, Lance, Steven and Cynthia) suffer from what I call "Hi, I'm Daisy!" syndrome: the characters are just there, they serve their basic purposes, have maybe one or two defining characteristics directly tied to the Pokemon type they specialize in, and once you've beaten them, that's it, they're done. I don't really expect anything more than that in the game because Pokemon isn't some storytelling, character-driven masterpiece. The anime and the manga kind of went in opposite directions from there, though: the anime characterizes each Gym Leader (and each member of the Elite Four that we meet) as a good person, which is all well and good if not a little bit boring. Like the games, the anime's not character-driven, so whatever. The manga mixes things up, and while the effect isn't THE BEST THING EVAR 8O!!!, it's enjoyable. Gym Leaders are people, and people aren't always good. It's just a fact of life. Pokemon Adventures (as well as Pokemon: The Electric Tale of Pikachu and all of its sequels, just to throw it out there) makes a more concentrated effort to explore the lore and science of the universe. It's kind of cool knowing that there's a practical reason to only carrying six Pokemon at a time (carrying more than that can weigh a trainer down), rather than just "oh, it's the law" or "oh, it's for gameplay and technical limitation reasons." Nobody ever really stops to consider that a Pokeball can break, trapping the Pokemon inside (which happened in Red's first battle against Giovonni), or that Pokemon and humans can share a direct genetic link (Deoxys was created using a sample of Red's DNA), or that some Gym Leaders have a defense/intelligence network set up (Brock, Misty, Erika and Blaine defending cities from Team Rocket (I think?) while coordinating with each other across Kanto). Along these same lines and in response to earlier posts, Eevee is the evolution Pokemon, so of course Team Rocket (who seems delightfully more competent compared to the game and anime counterparts) would try to push that to its boundaries; it's a manipulatable genetic anomaly that can be controlled directly via the application of one of three elemental stones (at the time, before 2Gen came along). That sort of thing could be turned to Team Rocket's favor, so why shouldn't it be experimented on? Yeah, it's incredibly dark, but despite how incredulous it seems, it's a realistic scenario. (I'm...not entirely sure what the deal is with the three legendary birds merging into one form comes into that equation, though. I couldn't find any copies of the manga by the point that happened, back in the day.) I also dig the manga's incarnations of the titular trainers. Red is definitely more competent than Ash, but he still had to work to get that far, and Sapphire and Platinum are more than just the contest-loving tits of Ash's traveling party like May and Dawn are. The dynamic between Sapphire and Ruby is a personal favorite: a wild child who is hell-bent on being the best trainer she can be due to her inability to defend herself against a Salamence when she was a kid, and a more reserved boy who prefers contests to battling due to the same incident. In short, the manga takes the road the games and anime avoid by putting emphasis on the characters and story, doing a nice job of avoiding "Hi, I'm Daisy!" syndrome and exploring the facets of the world we generally take for granted. Yeah, early on it was really dark (excessively so, I'd say), but from my understanding, it hasn't been as morbid with recent volumes. The experience is much more thorough, and I enjoy that sort of self-awareness and enrichment. It's one thing to be plopped down into a world and get told that "it is what it is" and sent on your merry way (not that there's anything wrong with that, given the right context); it's another to learn the workings of the world, and that sort of thing really keeps me engaged. |
|
