Donkey Kong Country Returns

[Shrikeswind]

Actually, what I'm saying is that K. Rool precludes any member of the Kremling Krew, flesh or steel, and any boss that may not be a member, i.e. King Zing, is only precluded by general lack of recurrance, something which quite frankly can be safely ignored anyways.

[Fryguy64]

Hmm... King Zing and Queen B are essentially the same thing though, aren't they?

[Shrikeswind]

If you mean that both are GIANT FUCKING BEES, then yes. Past that, though, no.

[Manspeed]

Yeah. Their respective battles were completely different.

[Fryguy64]

*sigh*

Yes, I'm aware that the two boss battles over the two games have different attack patterns, and the two bosses even have different names.

That doesn't really change the fact they are both giant Zinger sprites.

I don't even know why I'm fighting this point. What was the point of all this?

[Manspeed]

Nothing.

[Shrikeswind]

Just to be a jerk-ass. Duh. =P

[cheatmaster30]

I think I was just being somewhat hopeful and thinking maybe some non Kremling bosses might return. It was based off something someone said at DK Vine. That and the original Donkey Kong Country series bosses are awesome.

[Shrikeswind]

Hope is a great thing, but by rights they should have been gone with "There will be no crocodiles in this game." No crocodiles means no K. Rool, no Kremling Krew, etc. Non-affiliated enemies like Neckies and Zingers (more accurately, enemies that are not confirmed members of the Kremling Krew) are viable options, but for bosses, well, don't get your hopes up, bosses don't recur, though if they did, it'd be cool.

[Erik Aston]

Y'know, the Zingers are a big loss too, thinking about it. DKC3 always felt weird with the "Buzz" robots. The Zingers were one of the coolest stylized enemies and maybe the best drone ever of the "invincible moving spiky ball" type.

I hate NCL sometimes. I can understand driving out some of the Retro execs if they were out of line with the corporate philosophy changes that Iwata has brought. But if they are going to give Retro the DK brand to revitalize it, why tell them something like "Why do you need Kremlings?"

Maybe we need Kremlings because they were the classic bad guys in games that sold a total of 40 or 50 million copies! When DK games could reliably be million sellers, and the main series releases sell 5 million copies! Why change the content? Just to flip the bird to those millions of fans who bought one DK game after another from 1994-1999?

Honestly, Miyamoto sometimes just doesn't care about fans. He wants to create new fans of games in general, with new types of games, which is awesome. But he deprived an ENTIRE GENERATION of 2D Mario! Why? I guess the existing games were good enough and games should sell forever. That's kinda true. But the main recurring theme in level design in NSMBW is spinning blocks. Those were not possible on SNES, but they sure as heck were possible on N64! And Gamecube! And they could have led to a new game on those systems. They can claim they waited for the 4-player experience to be possible. But if that required the "power of Wii," why did they wait for 3 years after Wii came out? Even knowing the success of NSMBDS?! It's because they don't always care about the fans, but sometimes they just want to make games that are fun to make.

So I guess I've done a flip-flop on this game. If the game only has the right "feel" but the wrong content, it will basically feel like a "tribute" game by some other company, rather than an actual return to the series. And c'mon. This stuff isn't in the game. If it was, they would have showed it. Why hold your cards at E3 when the game comes out in about 5 or 6 months and is arguably the biggest holiday release? I hope I'm wrong and look like an ass.

They showed 3 clips of minecarts, multiple clips of swinging on vines, stupid stuff no one cares about like OMG SHOOTING INTO THE BACKGROUND. But the Kremlings and K Rool are gone, other baddies like Zingers are gone, the animal buddies are nowhere to be seen, we've been told the water levels are axed. I don't want "DKC without the stuff Miyamoto doesn't think is cool!" I want the stuff I thought was cool when I was 8.

I thought the minecarts and vines were awesome, and I guess Miyamoto did too. But 5 or 6 clips of those, and none of flippin' Rambi, who showed up 30 seconds into the original DKC, and the ridiculous question "Why do we need the Kremlings?" tells me that Miyamoto thought that stuff was lame. The fact that 4 different games featuring K. Rool, Kremlings, Zingers, Rambi and Enguarde were bought by five million fans is irrelevant. "Why do we need that stuff?" Because they are integral parts of the series.

Miyamoto created the biggest platforming series ever, but it isn't enough for him. He has to destroy the second biggest platforming series ever, ESPECIALLY because it was created by a Western development team, and DOUBLE especially because they re-established the Donkey Kong character he had ignored for 10 years. (Yes, I am just inserting Miyamoto as a figurehead for decisions I think were made in Japan, but oh well. If you do this much media, you get to be the figurehead for my hate.) Why doesn't he ask "Does Mario really NEED Bowser, the Goombas and Koopas? Does Mario Kart really NEED to have a new Bowser Castle and Rainbow Road EVERY TIME?" Doesn't he already have the answer? The biggest Zelda game since Ocarina is the only one set in a recognizable Hyrule. Classic content matters if you're making a new entry in a classic series.

I was able to buy Wario Land Wii for 10 bucks used recently. I'm already starting to think that's a good plan of action for this game. This game isn't going to be beloved because it basically takes the approach of "Diddy Kong is enough." Diddy is only in the game because 10 years of ignoring him couldn't even generate consistent million-sellers, let alone 5-million sellers. Now Diddy is supposed to be enough to get the old fans back on-board, and maybe the game can sell 5 million copies. But then 5 minutes into the game, people will realize that Diddy Kong, minecarts and vines are all we're getting in the way of classic content, and they'll be sad, and I'll get the game at a used price of about 10 bucks. Which is what a DKC "tribute" which gets the "feel" right but ignores the CONTENT is worth.

Classic content matters if you're making a new entry in a classic series.

[Erik Aston]

End wall of hate.

[kirbychu]

Wall of entirely misplaced hate, you mean.

[cheatmaster30]

Jul 1, 2010 19:59:56 GMT -5 Erik Aston said:

Y'know, the Zingers are a big loss too, thinking about it. DKC3 always felt weird with the "Buzz" robots. The Zingers were one of the coolest stylized enemies and maybe the best drone ever of the "invincible moving spiky ball" type.

I hate NCL sometimes. I can understand driving out some of the Retro execs if they were out of line with the corporate philosophy changes that Iwata has brought. But if they are going to give Retro the DK brand to revitalize it, why tell them something like "Why do you need Kremlings?"

To be fair, this could well be Retro's decision. Don't go blaming people without evidence. And Zingers are possible yet.

Honestly, Miyamoto sometimes just doesn't care about fans. He wants to create new fans of games in general, with new types of games, which is awesome. But he deprived an ENTIRE GENERATION of 2D Mario! Why? I guess the existing games were good enough and games should sell forever. That's kinda true. But the main recurring theme in level design in NSMBW is spinning blocks. Those were not possible on SNES, but they sure as heck were possible on N64! And Gamecube! And they could have led to a new game on those systems. They can claim they waited for the 4-player experience to be possible. But if that required the "power of Wii," why did they wait for 3 years after Wii came out? Even knowing the success of NSMBDS?! It's because they don't always care about the fans, but sometimes they just want to make games that are fun to make.

This is exactly the point this Malstrom character I read articles of says. He wonders why there was no 2D Mario for about fifteen years when it was clearly more popular than 3D Mario, and concludes the same, that Nintendo only often make what the developers would rather make. It's why some people were happy Iwata took over, as he started turning the company around and demanding people made what the public actually wanted instead.

So I guess I've done a flip-flop on this game. If the game only has the right "feel" but the wrong content, it will basically feel like a "tribute" game by some other company, rather than an actual return to the series. And c'mon. This stuff isn't in the game. If it was, they would have showed it. Why hold your cards at E3 when the game comes out in about 5 or 6 months and is arguably the biggest holiday release? I hope I'm wrong and look like an ass.

Meh, it's Nintendo's whole new strategy of announcing games shortly before they're released and not hyping so much. They basically want to prevent the massive fights online about Twilight Princess or Smash Bros Brawl.

They showed 3 clips of minecarts, multiple clips of swinging on vines, stupid stuff no one cares about like OMG SHOOTING INTO THE BACKGROUND. But the Kremlings and K Rool are gone, other baddies like Zingers are gone, the animal buddies are nowhere to be seen, we've been told the water levels are axed. I don't want "DKC without the stuff Miyamoto doesn't think is cool!" I want the stuff I thought was cool when I was 8.

Animal Buddies are likely in. Zingers might be back, as might other non Kremling enemies. Plus, keep in mind it brought back:

1. Bonus Room
2. DK letters
3. Banana Coins
4. DK Barrels
5. Barrel Cannons
6. Auto Fire Barrels
7. Extra Life Balloons

And everything does feel very Donkey Kong Country like. Remember, we saw maybe four levels, and bits of them at that. Hell, even DK's Boom box returns, and Diddy Kong is playable,

I thought the minecarts and vines were awesome, and I guess Miyamoto did too. But 5 or 6 clips of those, and none of flippin' Rambi, who showed up 30 seconds into the original DKC, and the ridiculous question "Why do we need the Kremlings?" tells me that Miyamoto thought that stuff was lame. The fact that 4 different games featuring K. Rool, Kremlings, Zingers, Rambi and Enguarde were bought by five million fans is irrelevant. "Why do we need that stuff?" Because they are integral parts of the series.

Probably because the show demo was maybe one or so levels long. He might be in a different level to what people have played.

They never got rid of all this stuff. K Rool and Kremlings is arguably ambiguous, but animal buddies and other kongs are literally guaranteed.

Miyamoto created the biggest platforming series ever, but it isn't enough for him. He has to destroy the second biggest platforming series ever, ESPECIALLY because it was created by a Western development team, and DOUBLE especially because they re-established the Donkey Kong character he had ignored for 10 years. (Yes, I am just inserting Miyamoto as a figurehead for decisions I think were made in Japan, but oh well. If you do this much media, you get to be the figurehead for my hate.) Why doesn't he ask "Does Mario really NEED Bowser, the Goombas and Koopas? Does Mario Kart really NEED to have a new Bowser Castle and Rainbow Road EVERY TIME?" Doesn't he already have the answer? The biggest Zelda game since Ocarina is the only one set in a recognizable Hyrule. Classic content matters if you're making a new entry in a classic series.

Erm, what? Miyamoto likes Donkey Kong Country, to think otherwise is a myth. The only ones who don't are Nintendo Tokyo who made Jungle Beat and maybe some Nintendo Power staff.

I was able to buy Wario Land Wii for 10 bucks used recently. I'm already starting to think that's a good plan of action for this game. This game isn't going to be beloved because it basically takes the approach of "Diddy Kong is enough." Diddy is only in the game because 10 years of ignoring him couldn't even generate consistent million-sellers, let alone 5-million sellers. Now Diddy is supposed to be enough to get the old fans back on-board, and maybe the game can sell 5 million copies. But then 5 minutes into the game, people will realize that Diddy Kong, minecarts and vines are all we're getting in the way of classic content, and they'll be sad, and I'll get the game at a used price of about 10 bucks. Which is what a DKC "tribute" which gets the "feel" right but ignores the CONTENT is worth.

Classic content matters if you're making a new entry in a classic series.

What's wrong with Wario Land The Shake Dimension.

[Shrikeswind]

Plus, we don't need the Kremlings. A hero's as good as his deeds, not as good as his nemesis. DK is the guardian of DK Island. You can't expect K. Rool to be the only guy to be attacking it.

[Manspeed]

To make a long story short, in spite of the lack of Kremlings, this game is more DKC than the past decade worth of DK games combined. There's no reason to complain about that.