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Post by Erik Aston on Jul 1, 2010 22:38:48 GMT -5
It just occurred to me that the animal buddies not showing up is almost certainly related to the 2-player. The animal buddies speed you way up. So if one person lost their Rambi, and the other still had theirs, the game would be miserable. And Expresso and Winky and Squawks and Squitter all directly change the areas you can access, which would also suck for someone losing their buddy. And if the whole game is jump-in jump-out multiplayer like NSMBW, then the only possible way that the buddies can appear at all, is if they are only transformation-barrel style like some levels in DKC2 and 3. If they were single-player only, they would be half-pointless because they couldn't be necesary to reach bonus rooms.
But at least that kind of big change of how the buddies work could be a justification for not showing them yet. On the other hand, it could be a justification for removing them from the game entirely.
As for other stuff:
A hero IS only as good as his nemesis when his only deed is to beat the nemesis. Donkey Kong isn't Atticus Finch. I liked that Giant Ape VS. Giant Lizard kept the King Kong theme going from the original arcade games, but switched Kong into the role where he wins.
NSMBW was announced at the exact time with the exact same release strategy, and they showed Yoshi, the Koopalings, the Propeller, and I'm pretty sure the Penguin suit, all right away. Doing a "slow trickle" of info, like showing classic baddies in a few weeks, and animal buddies a few weeks after that, and then the other Kongs, etc., would be similar to what they did with Brawl, and a way to build MORE internet hype, even though the game will be out sooner from announcement. Maybe the game will go totally quiet until reviews come out.
The Barrel Cannons have never gone anywhere. There's a bunch of them in Mario Kart Wii, even.
The collectibles aren't content; they are things you collect in order to SEE the content. You get bananas and lives so that you have more chances to reach new content. You get different types of coins to buy your way to new content. And Bonus Rooms also don't introduce new content. They just have harder challenges, and remove the 1 life penalty for failing, but with the same content. So all of this stuff just goes to the "feel" of the game, and my contention that the game gets the "feel" right but will feel hollow and strange without the classic content.
Stuff like the right sound effects and right "weight" and "floatiness" is important to nostalgia, but I think less substantial than the right content.
I can understand not showing the other Kongs in the trailer because they just showed gameplay, and the other Kongs ought to be on the map. So I'm hopeful they'll get those right, with Cranky, Funky, and either Candy or Wrinkly in their appropriate roles.
Wario Land Wii is pretty good and there's nothing wrong with being a good $10 game. I love the hand-drawn graphics, and the shake mechanics are fine. There haven't been any transformations yet though. I saw an enemy who I assumed would make me Zombified, and then it was just annoying. And the level design is inconsistent, though sometimes it is still brilliant. But it's awesome for $10. I got Wario World for $50, and it would have been worth $10. NSMBW I got for $40 and would have been worth $50 or more. It's as big as about 3 Wario Land games, I think.
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Post by Dances in Undergarments on Jul 1, 2010 22:46:30 GMT -5
In a forum with some of the most ridiculous, stupid, uneducated, pointless, asinine and quite frankly utterly retarded posts ever written, Erik Aston has just out ridiculous, stupid, uneducated, pointless, asinine and quite frankly retarded them all. Kudos, sir.
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Post by Erik Aston on Jul 1, 2010 23:01:39 GMT -5
In a forum with some of the most ridiculous, stupid, uneducated, pointless, asinine and quite frankly utterly retarded posts ever written, Erik Aston has just out ridiculous, stupid, uneducated, pointless, asinine and quite frankly retarded them all. Kudos, sir. I'm sorry. I'll try to do better... Hey guys, it's another DK game without the classic DKC content, but this time's it's made by Retro! DK pounds his chest! Bananas make the right sound! MINECARTS! AUTO LAUNCH BARRELS! Gush gush gush, slurp slurp slurp! Of course it's asinine and pointless... Video game forum, dude. But the only reason to be totally dismissive is if I raised a good point you want to ignore. I guarantee you if the animal buddies don't show up, in addition to the missing Kremlings, that I am ahead of the trend in turning against this game. Of course this forum defends most Nintendo-related games and will even if the tide turns. But I want this to be a classic game, and this series to be turned back into a classic series full of classic games. I don't think limiting the classic content bodes well for a full-on return of DKC. |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Jul 1, 2010 23:56:48 GMT -5
Don't you realize you're being a jack-ass? This game has literally nothing going against it so far except that it doesn't have Kremlings. What in God's name makes you think anything else is heading for the guillotine on this one, you ungrateful bastard?
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Post by Fryguy64 on Jul 2, 2010 3:39:07 GMT -5
Woah, everybody chill the fuck out, or I'm locking this thread.
Erik's posts were long and angry based on one video that didn't actually show us a whole lot and a couple of vaguely worded interviews. But he also brought up some good points about nostalgia... he just didn't follow that through to the big question:
Is catering to fan nostalgia more important than crafting a consistent and enjoyable game experience?
I know we have a lot of debate on these forums over story vs. gameplay, and everybody should know by now that I fall firmly on the gameplay side of things, while many of you fall on the story side.
Nostalgic elements fall on the storyline side of the fence, but it's an important part of it. If Nintendo had replaced the characters and settings of New Super Mario Bros. Wii with all-new characters and designs then would it have been a worse game for it? No. Would it have sold as many copies? Of course not.
But where do you draw the line? DKC, DKC2 and DKC3 all had different playable characters, different settings, different groups of enemies... DK64 had a few returning settings, but was essentially a Banjo-Kazooie game.
Then we can bring in the Paon games, which do bring back characters and settings (with mixed results), or Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat, which hardly brought back anything and was either loved for its extremely fluid and solid gameplay and wonderful level design, or hated for jettisoning of all the things DKC fans loved about the series.
The problem with this is it takes the storyline approach and jettisons the gameplay approach. Of course, both should complement each other. If you removed the gameplay elements and just had the story then you might as well just watch a TV show. If you removed the story and just had the gameplay elements, then you might as well switch the elements out and create a new IP, because it would be a cynical cash-in attempt.
Bananas and other items are gameplay content, and in order for them to work, they have to be an integral part of the level design. Only crap games stick them anywhere.
Dismissing items as a means to an end suggests that you consider the game ending as the content, and the levels are simply a barrier between you and that content. For me (and in most cases the developers), the ending is a reward for completing the game's content.
And if that's not right, then I want to know what you mean by "content". Saying the game has to have the right content, and then outright dismissing items (and by extension the design of those levels, many of which revolve around item collection) leads me to believe you just want nostalgia elements put in to satiate your desire for a continuation of the DKC storyline, and not actually the return of the gameplay that made the games popular in the first place.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Jul 2, 2010 3:57:58 GMT -5
Sorry. It's just hard for me to be nice when someone decides from one video, heresay (albeit they probably have videos) from people who played four demo levels, and an interview that a game isn't worth the money based on lack of fan-service, and then stubbornly refuses to say it does because one element is confirmed to be missing. Especially for a company like Nintendo who does it ALL THE TIME, see SMB2, Link's Awakening, Majora's Mask...crap, I could keep going if I wanted, but it's late and I'm tired. Or, actually, it's EARLY and I'm tired. But anyways, I do hope you can forgive me at least the rudeness of how I conveyed my point.
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Post by kirbychu on Jul 2, 2010 5:09:27 GMT -5
It just occurred to me that the animal buddies not showing up is almost certainly related to the 2-player. The animal buddies speed you way up. So if one person lost their Rambi, and the other still had theirs, the game would be miserable. And Expresso and Winky and Squawks and Squitter all directly change the areas you can access, which would also suck for someone losing their buddy. And if the whole game is jump-in jump-out multiplayer like NSMBW, then the only possible way that the buddies can appear at all, is if they are only transformation-barrel style like some levels in DKC2 and 3. If they were single-player only, they would be half-pointless because they couldn't be necesary to reach bonus rooms. All of that is true of Yoshi too, but that didn't keep him out of NSMBW. The key thing to remember if that if things get rough on player 2, he can just hop on DK's back for a while. It's DKCR's equivalent of hopping into a bubble. |
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Post by cheatmaster30 on Jul 2, 2010 7:01:18 GMT -5
The answer to the problem of someone losing their buddy is fairly obvious. Make it the transformation type from the second and third games, make it so the Animal Buddy has exactly the health of the player, and if they lose said buddy, they die and come back on the screen in a DK barrel as the last animal they were playing as.
That would solve that problem. And one Animal Buddy per player.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2010 9:56:15 GMT -5
Wow, this thread is hurtling ahead at a breakneck pace! I didn't even see all of this drama unfold, since I only stop by here once a day or so. I'm kinda glad, because it means I get to watch this one from the sidelines ;D
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Post by Manspeed on Jul 2, 2010 10:02:34 GMT -5
I assumed that if Animal Buddies were in, they'd either give both players a buddy when a crate is smashed open, or have it so both players have to ride (kinda like what they did in the GBA port of DKC).
Not to mention, it's essentially confirmed that buddies are still in. They've outright stated that "crocodiles", "alligators" and water levels are out, but when they were asked about other Kongs and animal pals, they deliberately kept us in the dark, which probably means they want to surprise us.
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Post by Erik Aston on Jul 2, 2010 17:46:16 GMT -5
But at least that kind of big change of how the buddies work could be a justification for not showing them yet. On the other hand, it could be a justification for removing them from the game entirely. FryGuy, The levels of course are the content, but if traditional things about the collectibles were altered (not eliminated), that would not change the core nature of the levels. No one is crying over the addition of hearts, and if the KONG letters weren't for lives but were necessary to unlock levels, or if the extra life balloons were gone entirely, or adding something like the puzzle pieces... None of that really changes the core nature of the levels. Yoshi doesn't really make you faster. Mario moves pretty fast at "flying speed." Yoshi also really doesn't go places Mario can't as much as most of the DKC animal buddies other than Rambi. Rambi can pretty much go where DK can go, but Winky can jump higher, Expresso can semi-fly (though Diddy's jetpack looks to have a similar downward-slanted trajectory to Expresso and Dixie), and Squitter and Squawks can basically go anywhere on the board. Basically, if one player had a buddy and the other did not, it could potentially "stretch the screen" much moreso than with Yoshi. Think of vertical levels in NSMBW, when one person gets a propeller, but the others don't. The other players usually get stretched off the bottom of the screen, or have to bubble to survive. A raccoon tail or cape in multiplayer would give someone too much power to drag other players off screen. But animal buddies wouldn't be on every board anyways. |
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Post by Koopaul on Jul 2, 2010 17:58:26 GMT -5
I can see people bitching about Jungle Beat... But Returns? No way.
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Post by Shadrio on Jul 2, 2010 19:10:12 GMT -5
Wow, this thread is hurtling ahead at a breakneck pace! I didn't even see all of this drama unfold, since I only stop by here once a day or so. I'm kinda glad, because it means I get to watch this one from the sidelines ;D I concur. I love watching people ramble on about stupid topics, especially if they're trying to sound intelligent when no real info is actually known. Just to kill the catalyst of your anti-Retro-Studios... in the interview they said that "Alligators" wouldn't be in the game. As far as Biology (or common sense) goes, the Kremlings are not alligators, since the are bipedal. Based of, yes, but not the exact thing. Very ambiguous, and I bet they are in the game and under the control of the Tikis as the theme for one Area. Seriously, all that angry rant based off one video? Come on... |
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Post by kirbychu on Jul 2, 2010 20:32:56 GMT -5
Yoshi doesn't really make you faster. Mario moves pretty fast at "flying speed." See, I don't remember any DKC animals making you go that much faster, either. And there's no reason any of them need to. It's Donkey Kong, not Sonic the Hedgehog. Yoshi also really doesn't go places Mario can't as much as most of the DKC animal buddies other than Rambi. Rambi can pretty much go where DK can go, but Winky can jump higher, Expresso can semi-fly Yoshi can jump higher/semi-fly. There are plenty of places in NSMBW you can't reach without Yoshi (or a propellor hat). If the levels are designed well, though, I can't imagine it being a problem. It'd be pretty hard to screw it up. |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Jul 2, 2010 21:19:18 GMT -5
Just to kill the catalyst of your anti-Retro-Studios... in the interview they said that "Alligators" wouldn't be in the game. As far as Biology (or common sense) goes, the Kremlings are not alligators, since the are bipedal. Based of, yes, but not the exact thing. Very ambiguous, and I bet they are in the game and under the control of the Tikis as the theme for one Area. You wanna take that further, they're actually more of crocodiles anyways. But all of this is being RIDICULOUSLY nitpicky. Kremlings are, for all intents and purposes, crocodilians, and as Retro said there will be none of that (to use the exact words, no alligators,) that pretty much precludes the possibility of Kremlings and by extension anyone affiliated with the Krem. |
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