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Post by kirbychu on Aug 31, 2012 13:47:15 GMT -5
I think it would be pretty awesome to have Wing Cap and Metal Cap in a 2D Mario game. That's new, right? Never been done in a 2D Mario game, right?  No, the rules have changed now, apparently. You could fly in Jetpac, so it'd just be ripping that off. Nintendo need to find something that's NEVER, EVER BEEN DONE IN THE MEDIUM OF VIDEO GAMES. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I THINK I'M LOSING IT |
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Post by TV Eye on Aug 31, 2012 13:48:27 GMT -5
In that case why play video games at all when the last one to do something new was Mario 64? I can't comment on Crash, I didn't play it much because it was just a hodge-podge of old Taz-Mania cartoons, but none of the others you mentioned were the originators of anything you talked about... I guess the DKC games were terrible, too! After all, they're games where you play as a vine-swinging gorilla (Donkey Kong Jr.) and his kid sidekick (Sonic 2) throwing barrels at enemies (Double Dragon). You're not getting it. You guys keep praising all these little tidbits and extras as being massive gameplay overhauls and godlike additions, but they're not. They're just trinkets. Nothing that hasn't been done before. I mean, it's ridiculous that when I say these games lack any individuality, I get called out on because there are...rotating platforms! And jumping stingrays! Do you guys even REALIZE how stupid that sounds? |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Aug 31, 2012 14:14:30 GMT -5
Kirbychu is right, the rules of this debate have now changed. I thought we were talking about what hadn't been done in a Mario game rather than what hadn't been done in all platformers ever.
...You know, like 4-player simultaneous platforming... *ahem*
Teev, we get it. Anything that was in an old Mario game, new or not, was an important gameplay change. Anything new or not in the New SMB games is gimmicky bullshit that's been done before somewhere by some game somewhere. Even if it wasn't.
We get it. That's your argument. I know I make you sound like a dick there, but that is genuinely your argument if you follow what you've been saying.
Do you get our argument? The New SMB games aren't groundbreaking. They're an ongoing development of a single game series, relying on the base gameplay established in Super Mario Bros. and developed over the decades with each new game. They rely on what came before, and they make small changes with each new game, keeping the core gameplay mechanics intact.
Flying was not a gimmick, I agree. But if you are going to define "gimmick" in the way that you have for New SMB's elements, then that means flying was also a gimmick. Yoshi was also a gimmick. Those fucking annoying caterpillar block platforms in SMW were gimmicks. The rotating screw platforms in SMB3 were gimmicks.
And your argument is equally applicable to almost any game series. Take Pokemon - a game that is about as iterative of what's come before as a game series can possibly be!
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Post by The Qu on Aug 31, 2012 15:05:10 GMT -5
I'm going to be honest with you guys. I don't understand what you folks want from a Mario game. If we separate stage gimmicks from "originality", the last time we got an original Mario game in 2D was Super Mario World, and hell, I'm sure someone somewhere accuses that of being an Adventure Island ripoff.
When NSMB came out, I was a bit disappointing when I beat it. Out of all the levels, maybe half weren't just straight platforming. The ones that weren't were quite fun, but all told it was sort of meh to me. NSMBW, on the other hand, is a 'nother story entirely. It very much felt like a worthy successor.
See, gimmicks that are used throughout an entire level, I don't think are bad. They legitimately add something to a level by making a level play different from another. The raft level plays differently than the Wiggler cave plays differently from the Ghost Houses plays differently than the flying enemies stages. Every other stage has a unique gimmick. That makes the game play differently than any other Mario game.
So, what's wrong with them? Not everyone one of them uses Wii controls, so that argument is out. They aren't minor things, either.
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Post by Arcadenik on Aug 31, 2012 15:12:32 GMT -5
If there is one thing I dislike about New Super Mario Bros. 2, it is that how ridiculously easy it is to get 1-UP's. Coins are everywhere and I have 500+ lives. It would be nicer to balance this out by upping the amount of coins required to get an 1-UP. Instead of 100 coins, you would need 1,000 coins, you know?
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Post by The Qu on Aug 31, 2012 15:27:50 GMT -5
Or the ability to disable coin 1ups period. That's one complaint about the NSMB games I agree with completely.
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Post by TV Eye on Aug 31, 2012 16:28:41 GMT -5
I can tell when I've been defeated. If only I could explain myself better through text, but unfortunately I'm not a ...smart guy.
I will say that comparing it to Pokemon is the COMPLETE opposite of my claims! It's almost like you guys aren't reading and taking in what I'm saying and instead THINKING you know what I'm talking about.
Every Pokemon takes place in a new region with new characters, new Pokemon, new music, new additions to gameplay (day and night, abilities, items, dream world), and new everything but the basic patterns.
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Post by Da Robot on Aug 31, 2012 17:07:49 GMT -5
Oh no Teev! You said the 'G' word, instantly demolishing your position. But I shall humour you first. What is your definition of a "gimmick" there? Please be very clear, particularly with reference to why absolutely everything on your wishlist isn't also a "gimmick". I hate the rotating platforms in New Super Mario Bros and all those other added Wii "gimmicks" because that's all they are. It's like, "Hey! This is a Mario game...ON THE WII! Let's add motion!" And that's stupid. (I relise people have talked about this on the last page and it's kind of going off topic) This is one the of things with new hardware features is developers trying to use in ways that make sense (and work well) with the game in question. Doesn't it feel a little bit disapontting when a game could have used a feature of the hardware and didn't? SMG1/2 Spin move (controlled by waggle); yeah that works well. DKCR rolling (controlled by waggle and moveing to the side with the control stick) should have been done by a button press (and folks have hacked the game to allow it to work with the classic controller) TLoZ: PH and ST, played entirely with the stylus. Could it have worked with the D-pad and button, yes it could, but it would have just played like past games instead of trying something new (with new input). On a interesting note, these two games could be effectively played with just one hand (probably doesn't effect anyone here, but there must be some amputees that might be interested). |
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Post by TV Eye on Aug 31, 2012 20:42:01 GMT -5
TLoZ: PH and ST, played entirely with the stylus. Could it have worked with the D-pad and button, yes it could, but it would have just played like past games instead of trying something new (with new input). On a interesting note, these two games could be effectively played with just one hand (probably doesn't effect anyone here, but there must be some amputees that might be interested). I could go on how much I hated those controls too, but I'd be beating a dead horse. Games should be played with buttons and D-Pads. That's my input. |
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Post by Shadrio on Aug 31, 2012 22:51:51 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure anything else that can be said would either be beating the dead horse or already said. Just as a final note, please don't think I don't like the game, it's just that I think it could be much more than it is, and I enjoyed the FUCK out of NSMB DS' multiplayer when I was in school. I don't think I've commented on the multiplayer in NSMBW (maybe I said something about it feeling shoehorned into the game), but that's mainly because I, and I alone, haven't been able to use it much, so I didn't really want to comment on something I didn't experience much and there for do not have the right to. Universities be damned.
Group hug?
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Post by Arcadenik on Aug 31, 2012 23:06:29 GMT -5
TLoZ: PH and ST, played entirely with the stylus. Could it have worked with the D-pad and button, yes it could, but it would have just played like past games instead of trying something new (with new input). On a interesting note, these two games could be effectively played with just one hand (probably doesn't effect anyone here, but there must be some amputees that might be interested). I could go on how much I hated those controls too, but I'd be beating a dead horse. Games should be played with buttons and D-Pads. That's my input. I 100% agree with you there. I mean, yes, I really enjoyed Super Mario Galaxy 1-2 but I feel motion controls were forced upon me when I'm playing these two games. It's not just Mario, it's Zelda, too. I really tried to give Skyward Sword a chance, I really did! It was my Christmas present to myself! But the motion controls eventually turned me away from continuing playing beyond the second dungeon. Was it really necessary to have motion controls for Mario and Zelda? Not really, it was nice but why did it have to be the only way to play those games? Sure, it worked wonders for Wii Sports but it's not suited for Mario and Zelda and perhaps Donkey Kong (according to some). Those games were meant to be played with old-fashioned controls, not motion controls. If I wanted motion controls, I'd play World of Goo, And Yet It Moves, and Okami (yes, there's the PS2 original but the motion controls improved the gameplay IMO). |
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Post by Koopaul on Aug 31, 2012 23:47:47 GMT -5
You can't... Unless your point of view or belief refers to a factual entity that is demonstrably true or false. If your premises are self-contradictory, or your conclusion follows neither your premises or the factual evidence, then your point of view or belief can be shown to be demonstrably wrong. You can dislike the games, but you can't set up arguments for why you dislike them unless you're prepared to have those arguments question in the fact of contradictory evidence. We're not trying to convince you to like them, but to tell you that the reasons you're giving for NOT liking them are not based on the visible facts, and that some of the reasons given are entirely self-defeating. Such as Teev saying there's nothing new one minute, then referring to anything new as "gimmicks" the next. What is Raccoon Mario in SMB3 if not a gimmick? By all means continue to dislike the games or elements of them. I can't change how you feel about them. But that's not what BooDestroyer meant. The arguments against presented so far are mostly self-contradictory and demonstrably false. Therefore, those arguments have been lost. Better find some new ones. Well don't lump me with TVEye. I don't see how what I said is self contradictory. Also I don't dislike them. They are good games just... well do I have to go into it again? No I think Shadrio said it nicely: Just as a final note, please don't think I don't like the game, it's just that I think it could be much more than it is, |
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Post by kirbychu on Sept 1, 2012 5:47:50 GMT -5
Every Pokemon takes place in a new region with new characters, new Pokemon, new music, new additions to gameplay (day and night, abilities, items, dream world), and new everything but the basic patterns. Okay, well, let's apply your NSMB arguments to Pokémon... because they absolutely do apply in exactly the same way. New regionOkay, so the layouts of the areas my be completely different, and they may also have updated graphics, but you're still going to the same themed places. Towns, cities, grasslands, mountains, caves, oceans... nothing new there, we've been there before. New PokémonYes, there are new Pokémon, but mostly there are just old Pokémon. The old ones far outnumber the new ones. Therefore I ignore the fact that there are new ones! There are only old ones. New music(I don't think I've actually pointed this out here, but I actually checked, and NSMBW has a soundtrack of around fifty songs. The vast majority are unique, written for the Wii game, two are remixed from the DS one. With that in mind...) Pokémon always uses the same Pokémon Center and Gym music. No originality! Day and night, abilities, items, dream worldGimmicky bullshit. Now, you are probably looking at my post and thinking "What the hell, he's lost his mind entirely!" and if that is the case you now understand exactly how I've been feeling this entire thread. Whenever your claims have been refuted, your response has always been "No, those new things are worthless because I say so, and I am clearly the unquestionable judge of how much merit something has!" Somehow NSMB's new abilities and breathtaking, unique dynamic stage design absolutely pale in comparison to SMB3's ability to reach slightly higher platforms if you happen to have a Raccoon suit, because new things can only be new things if they were done before 1996, even if they weren't actually new at the time. You're just coming across as being desperate to prove to everyone that NSMB is terrible regardless of whether or not it's actually true. You don't think the new stuff in NSMB was new enough. That's fine, but it's not a fact, and it's an opinion a bunch of us wholeheartedly disagree with. But you're trying to argue that the new stuff wasn't new at all, which is demonstrably false. Even if we ignore all of NSMBW's brand new enemies, stage design techniques and powerups, its main selling point, the multiplayer, already puts it above every 2D Mario except SMB for innovation, in my opinion. It's the first addition since sidescrolling that has fundamentally changed the way the game plays out. You can dismiss it and ignore it all you want, but there it is. No amount of plugging your ears and going "LALALALALALALALA" is going to change it. I'm not trying to argue that NSMB as a series is particularly groundbreaking as far as gaming in general goes. But what sequel is? The whole point of a sequel is to take what was done before and add new features on top, isn't it? Why do you praise Pokémon for it, but despise NSMB for it? I genuinely can not see this distinction you're seeing. And with that wall of text, I think I'm done with this thread, because I'm losing brain cells and respect for people involved. To summarise my position: Yes, I agree with you entirely. If you ignore everything that's new, there's nothing new in NSMB. |
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Post by TV Eye on Sept 1, 2012 11:41:34 GMT -5
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Post by The Qu on Sept 1, 2012 12:05:53 GMT -5
Broken image, Teev. Which actually makes that a pretty funny reply.
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