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Post by Shrikeswind on Sept 1, 2012 22:31:02 GMT -5
Time for a touch of the Shrike in this argument (This thread is fucked.)
Oddly enough, I agree, Teev: New SMB does a lot of rehashing. BUT! There's limits on what can be done. Excuse the fact that I'm essentially doing the same with a web-comic quote, if you please. I'll underline my changes.
Frankly speaking, how many games exist? How long have these things been coming in? In a way, there isn't all that much new ground left. Much of innovation comes from retreading old ground and playing. That's just common science. Much of the things that New SMB does is just that.
Now, I won't lie. I don't always like these innovations, and that's my biggest trouble with the New SMB games (seriously, the fucking Coin Flower can lick my balls. The Blue Shell can eat shit.) In other cases, I find the innovation doesn't exist (in all honesty, how innovative is the Mega Mushroom?) But that doesn't mean that there is no innovation. And note that I'm only running on Power-ups here. It's just for example. If anyone else cares to further these points, they are free to.
In any case, I'm out. I've said my piece. If I've stirred the pot, my humblest apologies.
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Post by Koopaul on Sept 2, 2012 1:15:24 GMT -5
Yeah but it's like I said before, there are things you can do to make old stuff feel new.
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Post by Fryguy64 on Sept 2, 2012 2:34:27 GMT -5
That argument has some merit, but not if you talk about all of the New SMB games as one entity...
New SMB was great. They really did a great job of updating the 2D Mario series to the modern age. It felt new, it felt fresh. The graphics! The movement! Sure it relied on classic tropes to kick off, but it had been over a decade since the last true 2D Mario game, then later introduced new ideas and new settings.
The tricks to make the other New SMB games feel distinct from each other... best achieved with artistic and musical changes without breaking the solid gameplay... aren't substantial enough. And I think we get that on the pro-NSMB side here.
I'm not in favour of changing the core mechanics. That's what spinoffs are for, and totally fly in the face of why the series exists at all. As for level design - the new level designs are usually excellent and always feel fresh. That's why I'm on the pro-side. I love art and music in games, but it's the stage design that stands over them and makes each stage feel distinct to me. Art and design would be a bonus.
Arguing for the stage design of New SMB doesn't work if you only focus on the first world. They're usually levels designed to introduce you to the game's mechanics, which most of us are already hugely familiar with. But they all throw in new ideas after that. Great stage designs and sometimes some true surprises.
Does this make all three New SMB games feel like romhacks of each other? Yes, which is why I also agree that the games are at too high a price point. But I also love some romhacks for letting me continue to enjoy a game I love in a new way.
I wasn't a big fan of SM3DL. I didn't feel the new mechanics were very solid, the stage design was new but didn't feel well suited to the controls, and the music/graphics were very similar to New SMB. It wasn't awful, but it had nothing for me. I played the whole thing in a haze, not really taking in what was happening, and also very rarely dying. Except for the Shadow Mario levels. Died a million times. Bastard.
Now some people love it, so clearly I missed something. Perhaps I've got high standards when it comes to level design. Would a new art design have helped? Probably would have kept my attention slightly more. In fact the Tick Tock Clock levels looked good, and I remember those better than the whole game.
But there we go. I agree with the key points that NSMBWii and NSMB2 could have put more effort into making the graphics/sound distinct, that they're overpriced if they don't make more effort to distinguish them from one other. But standing above that all is level design, which is constantly distinct, and I find them each memorable in their own way.
I have continued to play through New SMB2 and can confirm that the graphics/sound will still be an issue for you, but the level designs continue to be unique and excellent. Some are a bit easy, to run through to the goal, but then you realise they'd be perfect for challenging Coin Rush stages. Coin Rush is actually surprisingly addictive.
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Post by Shadrio on Sept 2, 2012 2:51:53 GMT -5
I remember there was going to be a rom hack for NSMB Wii that pretty much covered the little tidbits I've whined about so far: interesting world design, good difficulty and some originality that punched me in the face, called Newer Super Mario Bros. Wii. Sadly, it seems either development hasn't gone too well or they're adding even more content to just kick my ass with some awesome, but it sure has taken a long time. I immediately was interested when I saw there were Lava-Ice stages, I love me some crazy mixes like that, and I love fan projects like these, as they always breathe new life into games, my favorites being Balance Brawl (and Brawl hacking in general) and Super Metroid: Zero Mission. Trust me when I say I would like to buy NSMB 2, but there are other games with a much higher priority on my list, and as I've said, I'm a cheap ass. Maybe if I get lucky, I might find another 2 for 1 sale in my country... I wouldn't have bought SM3DL without it  And it's a good thing too, since while it is a good game, few levels seem memorable, but I think I enjoyed it more than NSMB Wii... I hope it wasn't because it hit my wallet less :S |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Sept 6, 2012 14:44:34 GMT -5
Just my take on that, Fry. That argument has some merit, but not if you talk about all of the New SMB games as one entity... New SMB was great. They really did a great job of updating the 2D Mario series to the modern age. It felt new, it felt fresh. The graphics! The movement! Sure it relied on classic tropes to kick off, but it had been over a decade since the last true 2D Mario game, then later introduced new ideas and new settings. The tricks to make the other New SMB games feel distinct from each other... best achieved with artistic and musical changes without breaking the solid gameplay... aren't substantial enough. And I think we get that on the pro-NSMB side here. Provided this, that's why I enjoy the first one. I dunno, man, you look at the classic SMB series (counting both the SMB2's and SMW,) you got a lot of distinction between music, graphics, and gameplay. Even Lost Levels, with it's redundant music and graphics, was a fresh game solely on gameplay. It was like a very liberal rom-hack (which you later mention, hence I bring it up.) New SMB's sequels? Much more conservative, so they feel kinda samey. And here's the crux of the matter: Stage design is only a minor point in the grand scheme of it. Yes, I'll agree, you can't just look at the first world and say "Unoriginal." You gotta see the whole game. I was actually making the exact same point to my sister when NSMB1 came out. But it doesn't change much. You can move or expand the pits, you can rearrange the pipes, add ledges and walls, make different block arrangements, but unless you get crazy (as in SMBLL,) it doesn't feel different, just expanded. And that's my point on it all. I didn't reply to the rest of your post because they kinda felt closed to me, you know what I mean? Anyways, there's an extra 2 bits. Go play another round of Donkey Kong. =P |
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Post by Boo Destroyer on Sept 7, 2012 19:28:30 GMT -5
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Post by Arcadenik on Sept 7, 2012 20:19:11 GMT -5
Holy shit! I predicted Cookie Land!  At least it's close enough. I must say this is kinda funny how some of you were complaining about how NSMB games were all the same and lo and behold, Nintendo actually did something different for NSMBU like an interconnected world like SMW and a world that takes place on a giant cake. |
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Post by Koopaul on Sept 7, 2012 23:39:15 GMT -5
I would still be so freaking happy if they could end the levels differently. No more flagpole please!
Oh and the bosses are disappointing. But at least they have that new world! So this is a little more promising.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Sept 7, 2012 23:44:07 GMT -5
Grain of salt. Remember, you're looking at an unreleased game. The map looks promising but I'm not sure how significant of an update it is to previous maps in the NSMB series. It could just be for detail. Similarly, Cake World could be interesting, but it could just be a detail skin (if I may call it as such.) Same pretty much applies to any content we see. Sorry to be the downer. Also, Gamexplain on NSMBU. |
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Post by Koopaul on Sept 7, 2012 23:58:32 GMT -5
Yeah there's no way of knowing. But it's still quite sad to see the Koopalings back. I liked how the first NSMB had a lot of original bosses.
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Post by The Qu on Sept 8, 2012 0:04:30 GMT -5
I never thought we'd get to the point where people are complaining about the Koopalings being back.
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Post by kirbychu on Sept 8, 2012 3:33:21 GMT -5
Even Lost Levels, with it's redundant music and graphics, was a fresh game solely on gameplay. It was like a very liberal rom-hack (which you later mention, hence I bring it up.) New SMB's sequels? Much more conservative, so they feel kinda samey. Wait, you thought there was a bigger difference between SMB and SMB:TLL than there was between NSMB and NSMBW? Explain please. |
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Post by Arcadenik on Sept 8, 2012 7:21:52 GMT -5
I never thought we'd get to the point where people are complaining about the Koopalings being back. I know right? Isn't this an example of "Nintendo fans don't know what they want"? I mean, there was a time when fans complained about the original bosses in NSMB and they were getting tired of seeing Bowser Jr. all the time and they wanted the Koopalings and Boom Boom back. That's why they came back in NSMBWii, SM3DL, and NSMB2. |
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Post by The Qu on Sept 8, 2012 12:29:53 GMT -5
The funniest part is saying you liked the bosses in NSMB. I'm sorry, but aside from Mummipokey and the Monty Tank, they were pretty lame.
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Post by Wildcat on Sept 8, 2012 13:09:00 GMT -5
The Koopalings exceed nearly every other boss in the Mario canon as far as I'm concerned. Giant variants of standard enemies are not that interesting to me.
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And it's a good thing too, since while it is a good game, few levels seem memorable, but I think I enjoyed it more than NSMB Wii... I hope it wasn't because it hit my wallet less :S
At least it's close enough. 
