LOZ: Master Sword debate

[Arcadenik]

Obviously Tingle's games happen before OOT as Tingle's games are about the origins of Tingle.

[Wildcat]

Oooooooooo, Zelda timeline threads. Scary.....later!

*whoosh*

In all honesty, I've never really tried to make heads or tails of an "order" of Zeldas outside of what has been made obvious (the Master Sword's shrine in Hyrule Castle in Wind Waker, for example). All I know is that the majority of them have been a lot of fun to play.

[NinjaRygar]

Are the oracle games even..... (here comes the word)..... CANON?

Weren't they made by Capcom? And also, when a game is (the word again) CANON.... usually future games refrence it in some way.... we cant be sure about the Oracle games, can we?
I don't know if you even need to fit them into any timeline theory, since maybe they're as important as Wand of Gamelon and the Cartoon show. Though I don't know for sure. Can somebody elaborate?

Also... fitting in Four Swords and Minish Cap... they focus more on the Four Sword, Vaati, and the "Life Force" rather than the Master Sword, Ganondorf, and the Triforce. So do they even fit into the timeline or could that maybe be considered another dimension or something?

[TV Eye]

wildcat said:

Oooooooooo, Zelda timeline threads. Scary.....later!

*whoosh*

In all honesty, I've never really tried to make heads or tails of an "order" of Zeldas outside of what has been made obvious (the Master Sword's shrine in Hyrule Castle in Wind Waker, for example). All I know is that the majority of them have been a lot of fun to play.

True that...but the game needs more decisive continuity.

Anyways, to the people who complain about the Zelda timeline theory, at least it's not a Mario timeline!

[Old Man Rupee]

Going back to Fry's comments on the location of the sword:

admin said:

What we know... SPOILERS AHEAD!!

The Master Sword appears in ALttP, OoT, TWW and TP only.

At the beginning of ALttP it is in the Lost Woods, where Link finds it. He has it tempered twice, and by the end of the game it is returned to the Lost Woods where it sleeps, supposedly forever. Suggesting this is the last time it is used.

In OoT, which we can assume is the first game in the timeline, the Master Sword is sealed inside the Temple of Time as the gateway to the Spiritual Realm. At the end of the game it is returned to the Temple of Time.

In TWW, it is set in a stone in the basement of Hyrule Castle, which is underwater. Link powers it up. At the end of the game it is embedded in Ganondorf's skull, turning him to stone, and then buried under the ocean.

So far they all seem fairly unconnected. And then...

In TP, the Master Sword is set into the Sacred Grove - the ruins of the Temple of Time... which just happens to be where it was left in OoT. And you know what? When the game is over... HE PUTS IT BACK!!

Argh!

I think I can see a way through here:
Lets assume that OOT is first, like Fry says. Master Sword is in Temple of Time.

Then comes TP, because the sword rests in ruins of that original Temple. The forest has grown around it.

Then comes LTTP, because the sword is in the forest, and all that remains of the ruins is the sword pedestal. Trees can do that to a building, probably.

Now, ignore the bit about the sword "sleeping forever". That's probably just the poets talking. At some point, its removed and placed in Hyrule Castle, ready for WW. And there it now rests, at the bottom of the sea, waiting for the next game it'll star in.

Of course, for all this to happen, you may have to elongate those 100 years between OOT and WW...

[kirbychu]

tveye said:

Reborn does not necessarily mean great-great-great (X 50) grandson.

No, but it's still a connection. King of Red Lions didn't think there was any connection at al between them.

tveye said:

It means reincarnation. Therefore what Ganon meant was just a reincarnation. I mean really, SPOILER if Link gets with Tetra at the end, won't that be considered incest? Every Zelda is a descendant of another one. But if the Links were as well....

Uh... I don't know why. As far as I'm aware, no Zelda game in history has ever portrayed Link and Zelda as a couple, or even suggested they became one.

[Fryguy64]

Hooray, now people are starting to bring fanon into it!!

In my eyes, the "Flagship" games can pretty much be considered a separate entity. Vaati, Minish, the Four Sword... it's OK to try and fit them into it, but they're not part of the "main series" if you like. In short - don't run before you can walk. Sort out LoZ-TP first, then go back and worry about all the spinoff series and Flagship games.

The main games to date exist in pairs, and I expect this trend to continue - there's always the main game, and then a side-story. I've seen theories split these pairings up based on information in the Flagship games and whatnot. I say balls to that - these games follow this path and always have done. I have no doubt that it is intentional.

Each pair stars a different Link and a different Zelda (but not necessarily a different Ganondorf):

LoZ - AoL
ALttP - LA
OoT - MM
TWW - PH
TP...

I have no doubt we will see a TP side-story in the future. It's just the way the series works.

Work out what order those five pairings go in. Then worry about everything else.

[kirbychu]

This is why I was so glad to hear that PH was a direct sequel to TWW. The trend continues. ;D

The games following Vaati and the Four Sword do seem entirely seperate, even containing a different backstory for Ganon. I don't know exactly how I feel about multiple Ganons, but for now I'd like to believe it's not the case.

Of course, if they find some way of tying the FS games into the main series, I'd be happy with that. There are plenty of things I love in those games, too.

[Manspeed]

tveye said:

Anyways, to the people who complain about the Zelda timeline theory, at least it's not a Mario timeline!

A Mario timeline is way easier to pull than a Zelda timeline, considerng how the only games that seem to happen out of release order are Yoshi's Island and Yoshi's Island DS. Mario & Luigi II even helps out with the addition of a time machine plot device.

kirbychu said:

tveye said:

It means reincarnation. Therefore what Ganon meant was just a reincarnation. I mean really, SPOILER if Link gets with Tetra at the end, won't that be considered incest? Every Zelda is a descendant of another one. But if the Links were as well....

Uh... I don't know why. As far as I'm aware, no Zelda game in history has ever portrayed Link and Zelda as a couple, or even suggested they became one.

Link's Luke needs a Han Solo for Zelda's Leia to fall in love with.

[TV Eye]

kirbychu said:

tveye said:

It means reincarnation. Therefore what Ganon meant was just a reincarnation. I mean really, SPOILER if Link gets with Tetra at the end, won't that be considered incest? Every Zelda is a descendant of another one. But if the Links were as well....

Uh... I don't know why. As far as I'm aware, no Zelda game in history has ever portrayed Link and Zelda as a couple, or even suggested they became one.

Well isn't it obvious though? Except in TP, the Zelda has always had affection for the Link (or vice versa).



And if you think about it (I saw this brought up earlier) every Ganon is the same exact one. He's just always locked away for hundreds of years, then escapes. In Ocarina of Time, at the end he says (hope this isn't a spoiler...everyone here has hopefully already beaten OOT) "I will get my revenge on your descendants." Or something like that.

Therefore every Ganon is the same one. That's why he always recognizes Link.

[Fryguy64]

The exact quote:

Someday...
When this seal is broken....
That is when I will exterminate
your descendants!!
As long as the Triforce of Power
is in my hand....

I guess it makes sense that all the Links are descended from one another. I'm pretty sure they don't get jiggy with Zelda though. Well... the original LoZ one might have... but HIS Zelda or the sleeping Zelda? Did he... no... not while she was asleep?!

We know Ganondorf can be revived by his followers, so whether that counts towards a multiple-Ganondorf theory I'm not sure. Does he age and die? Or does the Triforce of Power give him long life? Or is there really only one.

The goal of the thread is not to pick at the minutiae... at least not yet... but to work out an order for the games.

Of the main series, OoT-MM comes first, being Ganondorf's debut and the original uncovering of the Triforce. The timeline split seems to be part of the official canon now, according to that interview, so assume we have two Hyrules.

After the Adult Link ending, Ganondorf somehow escaped the Sacred Realm and cast Hyrule into shadow. No hero arose, so the Gods buried all of Hyrule under the Great Sea. Many years more, after this legend was forgotten, the events of TWW-PH take place. I don't know what happens at the end of PH, so I can't say what happens.

Right, Twilight Princess exists in the Young Link timeline. This was confirmed by Aonuma in a Japanese interview. In this timeline, Ganondorf wasn't sealed away in the Sacred Realm, but the sages locked him in the Twilight Realm. He built his power and conquered that realm.

Then we have the ALttP and LoZ pairings. Now I can't confidently place these in one or the other timeline. In fact, the whole thing would make a lot more sense if there was a single timeline.

Anyway, let the discussion continue.

[TV Eye]

You're right for the most part Fry, except you missed the original Legend of Zelda and Zelda II.

The first LoZ takes place in the young Link timeline I believe, because Ganondorf is able to gather his power and take over Hyrule. This implies that no one, while Link was in Termina (Majora's Mask), could stop Ganondorf from taking Zelda and so on. I believe that the Link in LoZ is the same one from OOT and MM. Then he grew up in Zelda II. This is an easy way to look at it, IMO.

We all know that WW takes place in the adult Link timeline, because of all the similarities and people talking about the Hero of Time...

And then Twilight Princess comes in before aLttP because the Temple of Time still stands, but is being covered my a forest.

The whole thing is sketchy...really sketchy...

This is only my theory, so please correct me if I missed something.


Also, does anyone know if the fairy in PH is in some part related to Navi? Or does the fairy have nothing to do with the story and is just like the one in TP...

[Fryguy64]

I didn't forget LoZ-AoL... I mention the ALttP and LoZ pairings at the end there, saying it's not clear where they go.

Your theory that LoZ-AoL Link is the same as young Ocarina Link is interesting - but unfortunately we know that the Link in LoZ-AoL is a traveller in Hyrule, he meets an elderly Impa, he knows nothing of the Triforce, and... well... it's definitely not the same Link, and must take place a long time after.

I started writing several paragraphs about where ALttP and LoZ-AoL fit in, but I kept rewriting them, deleting them, and wasn't happy with any answer I came to using the split timeline.

Maybe we should think of this more historically... working our way up from the original games, through to Twilight Princess rather than the other way round. After all, until recently, it seemed blindingly obvious that OoT was setting up the plot for ALttP... but now it's apparently official that games sit between them where Ganondorf returns... pretty much ruining those ties between the SNES and N64 games.

It's always a headache... thinking about this...

[ipsum]

Wait! We forgot about the Philips CD-i games! Maybe they hold the answers! LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Sorry, I had to ^^

[Hiker of Games]

admin said:

I have no doubt we will see a TP side-story in the future. It's just the way the series works.

Crossbow Training!

So that means we need a follow up to Tingle Rupeeland and The Minish Cap.

... unless Rupeeland is the prequel to The Minish Cap! I SOLVED THE TIMELINE FOR TWENTY POINTS!