Update #114: Excitebike

[vorpal]

Or maybe it has nothing to do with disc space, and is just has to do with design style choices, variety, and whatnot.

[Flint]

Sprites work for me with Nes and GB characters, I mean, its obvious that they could just grab a 3D model of Lakitu for his assist (like they did with Hammer Brother, I bet his 3d model its from other game, maybe Mario Party) but if they do this with lets say MOTHER 3 characters or Wario Ware (two games whose characters could fit also as sprites) then I would be disappointed, I want to see those characters in 3D since their games didn´t give me the chance.

And Tei, I fear for Paper Mario characters, (specially Super Paper Mario characters) as most of them, even if in the game, I bet they would still be in 2D (Specially Count Bleck and his gang, I think they are supposed to be 2D even if they faced a 3D Mario)

[kirbychu]

I honestly can't imagine most of the Super Paper Mario characters in 3D. Granted, I haven't finished it yet, but from what I've seen, the fact that all the people are 2D is a very important aspect of the world it's set in.

[Game Guru]

Or it may be the fact that we never seen a 3D Lakitu throw 3D Spinies except in Super Mario 64. Nintendo would have to design a 3D Spiny, which they didn't since the graphically dated Super Mario 64, and everything in New Super Mario Bros. is 2D save a few characters. So Nintendo takes a shortcut by making Lakitu & Spiny retro. Meanwhile, Hammer Bro has a 3D design already, hammers included... Excitebike meanwhile looks most memorable AS as a NES Sprite. Also, Excitebike doesn't change position in his screenshots, so they MAY be using 3D models for characters that DO move. I don't think any Mother characters will be sprites, though WarioWare characters MAY likely be drawings.

[Dasher Misire]

You can't steal Lakitu's cloud as it's a SMB Lakitu. And probably the same reason as Andross, most memorable.

I think Lakitus will pop up in SE and this separates them. Maybe not.

I like Excitebikers, but why they couldn't make it like Excitebike 64's look or the Melee trophy, or like Devil even, is way out of my head. I don't hate it, but I think it's a tad cheap. But I still want my 3D Balloon Fighter.

[Deleted]

arcadenik said:

You want to talk about lazy programming? I daresay the clones in Melee are the worst form of lazy programming!

Just copy and paste the moveset codes and just change the variables to make clones better or worse than the originals.

And besides the sprites, may they be lazy programming, still give out that retro feeling considering this is yet another testament to Nintendo's history.

That's a different scenario though. Melee had less than a year's development time and there wasn't enough left by the end of the cycle for Sakurai to give the extra characters he wanted to include their own unique movesets. Brawl has been in production since May of last year; time constraints are no excuse. Not to mention clones are passé now as Sakurai said they'd be changed or cut out. The only common ground here is that they're in a SSB game.

arcadenik said:

Good point. Andross is clearly based from his SNES look. So what makes him any special? Even the SNES game had Andross looking 3D just like his AT in Brawl... So I could argue that Andross was ripped straight from the SNES game.

Again, different scenario. Andross was 3D even in StarFox, and if you compare the SF model to this one, you can see the difference in texture. You couldn't argue your way out of a wet paper bag with this stuff.

Now, if you told me that Sakurai ripped the Pokémon models out of Battle Revolution--I might believe you there, since Pokémon have always been a lazy point in the SSB games. (Sprites in the first game and then taken from the Stadium games in Melee.) But you got nothing. Everyone else here has at least one valid point, but you just seem to be making arguments for the sake of it.

[Arcadenik]

So if we are happy with Pokemon just being ripped from Pokemon Stadium games then what's the matter with NES sprites being ripped from the NES games? But I guess the issue here is that Assist Trophies are supposed to be 3D, no matter if its ripped from a SNES game, but it cannot be 2D, even if its from a Wii game. So yeah, all right, I get it now.

[kirbychu]

The issue here is that, by today's standards, NES graphics are jagged and ugly. I don't mind these, personally, but they do look extremely out-of-place in such a realistic environment.

[Arcadenik]

Of course its out of place! That's how Smash games always have been!

We got 2D fighters in 3D environments, 3D fighters in 2D environments, realistic characters in cel-shaded environments, etc. Cartoony fighters and realistic fighters fighting each other.

Since when did everything have to fit in Smash?

[kirbychu]

Uhh, not quite the same. Classic stages aside, everything in Melee had a major graphical upgrade from the game they originated from. Aside from the Pokémon, which looked fine as they were anyway.

[Flip]

Excitebike is fine, because it's how people would remember it. It's goofy, anyways.

Lakitu is a bit lazy. I mean... we have the Hammer Bros. in 3D. wtf?

THO if ATs DO appear in Subspace (which, as far as we know, they do), maybe there's some crazy "the games are coming alive!" level where you fight pixelated enemies from old games? And, to coincide with Lakitu being an enemy in that stage, they placed it in the game as an AT as well?

I mean, it's clear that Hammer Brother appears as both a Subspace Enemy and an AT and they do EXACTLY the same thing.

How is Lakitu any different?

So I motion that this update proves there will be a Retro Level in Subspace ;p

[vorpal]

I think most of you are just retro haters

Everything has to fit, but somehow a retro look isn't allowed... even though the Mushroom Kingdom Stage has been around since the first SSB.

"But that was a stage, this is different!"

How? This is a game about combining several different video games together into an all-out slug-fest/cameo-heavy gamer heaven.

I personally think that the Excitebike NES sprites gives MORE character to this AT than an Excitebike 64 rendition would have done. Obviously the reason to keep Excitebike as an NES sprite has nothing to do with disc space or programmer laziness. It's all about nostalgia and capturing that retro-feel that those little sprites automatically bring up in so many people's memories.

I think the same could be said for Lakitu. If it was just a 3-D render... sure that would be fine. What does the SMB sprite do that the 3-D render cannot? It brings up all those feelings when we (I guess some of us) were little kids, running away from that cloud-guy.

Not to say that all ATs should be like this, but I think those two in particular are good choices in this respect. I don't think it would have been as effective to make Hammer Brother or the Devil in this particular fashion. This is a deliberate stylistic choice. Not laziness, nor space-saving.

[Arcadenik]

They are not retro haters, they are pixel haters.

But great posts, fliptroopa and vorpal, totally agree with you guys. Sakurai chose to make Excitebike and Lakitu pixels because 1) he wanted to and 2) for nostalgia purposes and 3) it saves time and space and most importantly 4) its his game so he can do whatever HE SEES FIT.

Sakurai is making the game as he sees fit, not what we see fit. So sure, we may be disappointed with some aspects of the game but there are plenty other aspects to enjoy the game.

[kirbychu]

You guys think that Fryguy is a pixel or retro hater? I laugh at you. Loudly and openly.

[Smashchu]

sgtmajorkururu said:

arcadenik said:

You want to talk about lazy programming? I daresay the clones in Melee are the worst form of lazy programming!

Just copy and paste the moveset codes and just change the variables to make clones better or worse than the originals.

And besides the sprites, may they be lazy programming, still give out that retro feeling considering this is yet another testament to Nintendo's history.

That's a different scenario though. Melee had less than a year's development time and there wasn't enough left by the end of the cycle for Sakurai to give the extra characters he wanted to include their own unique movesets. Brawl has been in production since May of last year; time constraints are no excuse. Not to mention clones are passé now as Sakurai said they'd be changed or cut out. The only common ground here is that they're in a SSB game.

It actually started Oct 05. They had a trailer for E3 06, so why would it start after showing the trailer?

But this is probably a design chose. To make it feel retro. I personally like it. Not everything has to be trendered. Well, 99.9% should, but that's not the point. The point is to give a little feel from older games, by giving use sprite characters. Plus, the excitebikers wouldn't look good rendered. The trophy wasn't that great either.