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Post by TrustTheFungus on May 26, 2008 23:21:15 GMT -5
I really don't understand why Dr. Mario fans can't be happy with Mario. Fans of obscure games have little hope of getting a single character from thier favorite game, and Dr fans have to have two versions of Mario? And all of the Mario sport games are Nintendo's most popular golf/tennis/racing/baseball/soccer/etc... Should five+ more versions of Mario be included? How about Pinball Kirby? FPS Samus? Adventures Fox? All of these make just as much sense as Dr. Mario. Well, for starters, Dr. Mario is a long running franchise. Of course, it's also becuase he's been in a Smash game. Mario Golf-1987 Dr. Mario-1990 Mario Kart-1992 Mario Tennis-1995 |
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Post by Smashchu on May 26, 2008 23:29:43 GMT -5
Well, for starters, Dr. Mario is a long running franchise. Of course, it's also becuase he's been in a Smash game. Mario Golf-1987 Dr. Mario-1990 Mario Kart-1992 Mario Tennis-1995 Doesn't prove much of anything. Dr. Mario has gone a lot longer then any of those franchises and there are more games. Plus, he's actually been in a Smash game. |
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Post by TrustTheFungus on May 27, 2008 0:02:37 GMT -5
Mario Golf-21 years, 8 games
Dr. Mario-18 years, 9 games
Mario Kart-16 years, 8 games
Mario Party- 10 years, 10 games
And I don't understand why being in the game previously makes him any better an idea. That's like saying OoT Link and OoT Young Link should return.
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Post by Game Guru on May 27, 2008 1:36:11 GMT -5
But Link is in the game. And Toon Link is Young Link, except he's big-headed and cartoony.
That of course doesn't mean Young Link from OoT isn't wanted... They just want him to use the Masks and call him Masks Link.
Also, Mario Golf and Mario Tennis aren't big franchises. Only Dr. Mario, Mario Kart, and Mario Party are considered the big Mario multiplayer games, and the former two had representation in the Smash Bros. in a format more than a trophy or song... And even Mario Tennis and Mario Golf got representation in Peach's Forward Smash and even more for Mario Tennis with Waluigi. But Mario Kart and Dr. Mario had a stage and a playable character respectfully.
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Post by TrustTheFungus on May 27, 2008 1:56:47 GMT -5
But Link is in the game. And Toon Link is Young Link, except he's big-headed and cartoony. Dr. Mario is in SSBB, too. He's just wearing different clothes. |
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Post by 8bitretroshit on May 27, 2008 2:22:51 GMT -5
The thing you said (clone, there for music) was the reason people want him gone. Looking back, he is a part of Nintendo history, more that can be said about many characters in Smash. I thought the 'Dr. Mario was thrown in just because of the music' thing was something Sakurai wrote down on that old Melee site of his himself. Not sure though. Anyway the problem is people treat the doc as a different character. . . but he's not. It's Mario wearing different clothes. And personally I don't think Mario wearing different clothes is more deserving of a spot then any other character if regular clothes Mario's already in. Even if he's Nintendo's mascot. So for SSB4, do you people think a Dr. Mario alt. costume would be good enough or does he really need his own spot in the roster? Basically do you want the doc because you think 1) the labcoat's rad/ representin' the puzzle genre or 2) because you just happened to kick butt with the doc in Melee/ you liked that forward air punch so much/ you think the waterhose blows ass. |
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Post by Fryguy64 on May 27, 2008 3:01:06 GMT -5
In other words, do you want him in a representative role, or as a gameplay mechanic?
I'll be honest, if we're going to do down the route of deserving puzzle game characters, Lip has Doc beat. She's got her wand, she's got Garbage Blocks and she's a woman - which is the argument that gets bandied around for less favourable characters (*cough*Krystal*coughcough*).
I didn't have much against the Doc - I could take him or leave him to be honest. His sound effects and general appearance were more amusing than Mario's.
I still think there should have been more focus on alternate costumes, ala. Dungarees Wario. That would have solved that little problem.
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Post by NinjaRygar on May 27, 2008 10:16:30 GMT -5
I can't believe I left this board for like, months... and you're still talking about this.
I mean, forgive me for sounding like a jerk, but come on! You're still having Dr. Mario arguments?
There is no new smash brothers game planned... if one DOES ever come out, they probably won't start working on it for at least a few YEARS.
It's all well and good to discuss who you'd like to see in this hypothetical game, but seriously... you guys are AT IT AGAIN as if the new game was announced. These are the arguments/discussions we had back when Brawl was first announced and we were all eager to guess who would be appearing in it.
Those debates made sense back then... but now? Is there any point to this now?
It should be more like this...
"Who do you want in the next smash bros.?"
"Dr. Mario"
"Cool"
End of story.
Personally, I thought Dr. Mario was a redundant character in Melee, and I can totally understand why they didn't bring him back. But am I going to make arguments about SSB4? A game that may never exist?
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Post by Johans Nidorino on May 27, 2008 11:00:56 GMT -5
Why wouldn't there be a new fighting game of Nintendo characters in the future?
As fans we want to see our favorite universes being together. Super Smash Bros. has made it possible, so it's way more comfortable to discuss a potential sequel to this game series than, say, discuss RPG crossovers that have never happened.
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Post by Flip on May 27, 2008 12:12:40 GMT -5
The next game is going to be way more 3rd party characters. Most definitely. WHO of the remaining Nintendo cast is really deserving enough for a spot? I can name maybe... 5 or so characters that NEED to be in the next game. Any more than that is definitely a stretch. I can see Little Mac, we can argue Dixie Kong and K. Rool, you could argue a Waluigi or a Bowser Jr. Hell, a second Metroid character is a necessity. But if they can replace characters with more relevant ones, and find logic to disclude somebody even as popular as Ridley, I highly doubt the game will be bursting with that many more Nintendo characters.
On top of all that, how relevant will some of these top-requested characters be in a few years? Pit had the retro appeal on his side, but does Isaac? If there isn't a third Golden Sun game, he will fade into obscurity and likely be forgotten. It's sad and it's true. It's not like it's an ancient franchise; it's new, so it won't sit well in "nostalgic" memories. So when SSB4 does come around, all those people clamoring for Isaac, Advance Wars, Dark Samus, and others won't even remember why they cared that much. They'll be easily outdated given 6 years from now. Easily. Why else did they give the axe to Roy and Mewtwo? They were no longer relevant.
No, the next Smash won't have any of these characters we're discussing here. It's definitely heading the way of a "Dreammix TV" style game.
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Post by Smashchu on May 27, 2008 16:19:00 GMT -5
The next game is going to be way more 3rd party characters. Most definitely. WHO of the remaining Nintendo cast is really deserving enough for a spot? I can name maybe... 5 or so characters that NEED to be in the next game. Any more than that is definitely a stretch. I can see Little Mac, we can argue Dixie Kong and K. Rool, you could argue a Waluigi or a Bowser Jr. Hell, a second Metroid character is a necessity. But if they can replace characters with more relevant ones, and find logic to disclude somebody even as popular as Ridley, I highly doubt the game will be bursting with that many more Nintendo characters. On top of all that, how relevant will some of these top-requested characters be in a few years? Pit had the retro appeal on his side, but does Isaac? If there isn't a third Golden Sun game, he will fade into obscurity and likely be forgotten. It's sad and it's true. It's not like it's an ancient franchise; it's new, so it won't sit well in "nostalgic" memories. So when SSB4 does come around, all those people clamoring for Isaac, Advance Wars, Dark Samus, and others won't even remember why they cared that much. They'll be easily outdated given 6 years from now. Easily. Why else did they give the axe to Roy and Mewtwo? They were no longer relevant.No, the next Smash won't have any of these characters we're discussing here. It's definitely heading the way of a "Dreammix TV" style game. Sorry Flip, but I disagree on all point. Firstly, the evidence points towards fewer third party chacters rather then more. Sonic is the best example. While the entire roster was done in 2006 (I know it says 05 but I think it's a typo my news outlets), yet Sonic didn't get in till 2007. Everyone knew he was the most requested character, even Nintendo as Miyamoto was quoted as saying just that. So why did it take so long to add him. The answer is clear: they didn't want to. The focus is that of a Nintendo fighting game. Snake and Sonic are merely guest. There were other third party characters who could have been added. For instance, everyone wants Megaman, but why isn't he in the game. It'[s also evident as Sakurai put a limit at no more then 3 3rd party characters, and they didn't hit that mark. While the franchises did receive a good number of material, it was ultimately greatly out massed by the Nintendo content. It's also not in Nintendo favor to add many third party characters. 1)If the number of third parties gets too large, then it would cause a lot of trouble. Things like royalties and rights issues will get in the way 2)The Smash team will have to work harder for each new one added. As you see, Sonic and Metal Gear got a good amount of content besides music (a lot more ports then remakes). So the team will have to work harder to not only make a character, but also a working stage trophies and some music. This may also be a reason we see more characters from existing franchises then new ones. Also, a Dreammix TV route would be the least likely and perhaps the worst option. Dream TV mix worked because there was one big company and two smaller ones. Konami was much large then Hudson and Treasure. But if you have more giants then it becomes much harder to create. They would be more likely to squable and have issues with money, distribution and publishing. In Dream TV, Konami was the only one who could do it so and royalties could be worked out. To the smaller two, it was a normal development job. There also comes the problem with worldwide releases. Dream TV never made it to the states. Neither did CapcomXNamco or this new game coming out, Cross Edge. These big cross over games have a bad history of staying in Japan. Part of the reason is who controls the rights here and there. However, it may not be as much of a problem since the problems usually come with the smaller companies, but if CapcomXNamco didn't come here then perhaps there could be a problem with Dream Smash. Of course, there is possibility for more third party characters to be in future Smashes, but there is defiantly not a lack of Nintendo characters. You firstly make the mistake of saying that Golden Sun can't be retro or a remembered franchise. That's just not true. In terms of sales, Golden Sun meets Kid Icarus, and probably beats it when the sequel comes in. But it is a franchises that will be remembered. It's usually considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time. It even found it's way onto IGN's best games of all time list. It also has a lot of fans. Heck, in almost every interview with Camelot, they always ask if there will be another Golden Sun. Kid Icarus hasn't had a game is a long while. 20-15 years perhaps. But it's still remembered. Who's to say by the time SSB4 is announced that people aren't clamoring for Issac. Also, Mewtwo and Roy were meant to return. They were even planed to have their own winning theme, and people actually wanted them back (especially the former). A lot of it comes down to popularity. How much the character is wanted. How relevant is Ness, a character who hasn't seen a game in eons and one that didn't even sell that well. Thing is, there is still a wealth of characters, many of which are still untapped. Warioware, Krystal, Issac, Advance Wars, another F-zero character, King K. Rool, Ridley, Saki, other Mario characters (like Geno and Bowser Jr.), Toon Zelda/Tetra, other retro characters, new pokemon/FE lords, new Nintendo franchises and perhaps Miis as a creatable character. Not to mention any bizzar ideas Sakurai has cooking in his head. There is certainly a wealth of characters. I do beleive there is a possibility for another third party character, but I doubt it would be higher then 1. Megaman has a chance but it's hard to tell. He is still no where near Sonic and he has trouble getting in in the first place. But after that, there is no one else that stands out. There are a few with some request, but very few. Megaman is the one who stands a chance, if at all. I could see there being more for marketing reasons. Of course, it all comes down to Sakurai. He might add another third party character, but it would be iffy with him at the helm, and there could be 0 with him (where other developers would be more open to it). But we'll see I guess. EDIT:I think I went overboard...... |
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Post by Game Guru on May 27, 2008 20:49:45 GMT -5
Actually, from what has been going around, Snake and Sonic are in Brawl because Konami and Sega ASKED Nintendo to put them in a Smash Bros game. I mean, Hideo Kojima wanted Sakurai to put Snake in Melee, but by then it was too late, so Nintendo with Brawl asked Konami if they still wanted Snake in a Smash Bros. Konami said yes, and thus Snake became the first playable character in Brawl that was not created by Nintendo. We then find out that Sonic the Hedgehog, the most desired character FOR Brawl, was put in last and wasn't even planned for Brawl. Why would Nintendo even consider approaching Sega if by Sakurai's own admission, Sonic was not planned for Brawl? It is because Nintendo didn't approach Sega, but instead Sega approached Nintendo in regards to putting Sonic in Brawl, and like last time, it was a bit too late, but Nintendo knew that the Mario vs. Sonic rivalry was something to milk, and that is likely what caused the first delay that they practically explained by showing off Sonic.
Yeah, now I believe the first delay was caused by designing Sonic, designing Green Hill Zone, making the remix for Angel Island, making a CODEC Convo for Sonic, and making a cutscene for Sonic in SSE. Supposibly, SSE was planned from the start, but Sonic wasn't, so who would've fulfilled Sonic's role in SSE? Wolf would've, as he's been known to jump in to save Starfox in his games, and was only made an optional find when Sonic took that role. One could also easily translate Snake's dislike of Sonic as being caused by the fact that the VAs had to come in to record new dialogue.
Meanwhile, Mega Man creator Kenji Inafune sat quietly waiting for Nintendo to contact him, and Mega Man missed the boat only because, unlike Konami and Sega, Capcom did not approach Nintendo to talk about putting Mega Man in Brawl. Had Capcom actively persued Nintendo about it around the time that Sega did, Nintendo would've put Mega Man in with equal representation to Snake and Sonic with a stage, Assist Trophy, songs, cutscene in SSE, and a CODEC Convo.
Yes, there are rights issues to be considered which is why Nintendo would only consider a third-party character if they could get a license to use them in the game internationally. My own theory in regards to third-parties is that Konami and Sega will at least agree to lend Snake and Sonic again, and that they will likely lend another character each, and that Capcom will approach Nintendo and lend two characters as well. I suggest that Konami will lend Simon Belmont with Alucard as Castlevania's Assist Trophy, and that Capcom would lend Mega Man, who like Snake would be an amalgamation of his various personas, though sticking mainly to the Original Series, and Ryu from Street Fighter. I'm a bit lost as to who Sega would include who isn't part of Sonic's posse, but I'm sure Sega would have on. In addition to definites like Krystal, Mewtwo, the promotions for a few of bosses and assist trophies, and some new first-party guys like maybe a hero from the Glory of Heracles series, it would make a decent cast for the fourth game.
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Post by Smashchu on May 27, 2008 21:26:27 GMT -5
Actually, from what has been going around, Snake and Sonic are in Brawl because Konami and Sega ASKED Nintendo to put them in a Smash Bros game. I mean, Hideo Kojima wanted Sakurai to put Snake in Melee, but by then it was too late, so Nintendo with Brawl asked Konami if they still wanted Snake in a Smash Bros. Konami said yes, and thus Snake became the first playable character in Brawl that was not created by Nintendo. We then find out that Sonic the Hedgehog, the most desired character FOR Brawl, was put in last and wasn't even planned for Brawl. Why would Nintendo even consider approaching Sega if by Sakurai's own admission, Sonic was not planned for Brawl? It is because Nintendo didn't approach Sega, but instead Sega approached Nintendo in regards to putting Sonic in Brawl, and like last time, it was a bit too late, but Nintendo knew that the Mario vs. Sonic rivalry was something to milk, and that is likely what caused the first delay that they practically explained by showing off Sonic. The problem is there is no evidence to back any of that up. We don't know who approached who. Sonic's inclusion was probably done by Sakurai as he has complete control over this project. If Nintendo would get involved, then we'd see things like Miis, but they are not truly in the game (not playable) so it doubtful Nintendo forced them in. Sega COULD have approched Nintendo, but then it begs the question: did no one else? If Sonic waltzes in when someone ask for it, then how come there weren't more? In the same vein, wouldn't Sega, or any other company, approached them day 1 (or at least soon). However, we do not know if Capcom ever approched him, or vise versa. All he said was he was waiting for Nintendo to call him. There is no evidence to back up any of the claims. The problem is it's wishful thinking. It's rather ludicrious actually. As I mentioned before, third parties aren't something that just happens. It really can't be. Of course, it's the rights issues. Snake is easy because Kojima has some control over him, but that isn't the same for Sonic or anyone else. It's also the work load. As I mentioned stuff had to be made for every characters and what not. It would be lost time to have to make stuff for 4 new franchises. The team wouldn't be up for the work, and would make the game have to come out much later. And it wouldn't be worth it for the sales increase. There are going to be people who buy it becuase Megaman is in there, but as you keep going, who wants to buy then game for another third party. Nights or Ryu are not going to make a blip on the radar, or hack, Megaman probably wont make a difference. In other words, the third parties aren't worth it for very little gain, not to mention there are 1st/2nd party characters people want more then Ryu or even Megaman. Sorry to try and crush the theory, but I think it's more wishful thinking. Sure, it's nice to get all your childhood heroes, but they can't be crammed in there like nobodies business. It's just not fesable. EDIT:Glory of Heracles isn't owned by Nintendo. They are just publishing it. EDIT2:I saw what Flip said on the Heracles topic. My bad. Also, I won't rule out no third party characters for SSB4. There is a chance. Just I don't think 6 is plausible. |
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Post by TV Eye on May 27, 2008 21:52:10 GMT -5
Heh heh heh. Looking back at my posts, I realize how serious we all get when it comes to video games. I guess that's how you tell a hardcore gamer from a casual gamer.  Sorry for my outbursts. I've been taking pills since I've had the flu lately (they're basically sleeping pills, but I've been straining to keep myself awake, which has been stupid  ). But Smashchu, I wasn't angry before. I just said I hated Dr. Mario conversations because they always end up in bitter arguments. So that was silly of you to make assumptions like that. |
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Post by Smashchu on May 27, 2008 22:14:43 GMT -5
Heh heh heh. Looking back at my posts, I realize how serious we all get when it comes to video games. I guess that's how you tell a hardcore gamer from a casual gamer. Yeah. I know I still argue about Smash. But truth is I actually like too, just that I have to learn that not everyone else does. It's cool. It's just how you worded it seems like you were being sarcastic. I apologize for acting like myself though. |
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