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Post by Arcadenik on May 28, 2008 14:08:58 GMT -5
What should be in SSB4?
1. A better stage builder with more options and Nintendo-themed objects.
2. A fighter builder where you use Miis to create your characters.
3. Individual target tests return. They were way better than having just five target tests for everyone.
4. Remove the Masterpieces. A waste of time and space, especially when they are actually the full versions with a time limit.
5. Improve the Chronicle. It was really cool, but I'd have liked to see the box arts of all those games (if possible).
6. Little Mac, Takamaru, Duck Hunt Dog, and Muddy Mole should be the retro newcomers in SSB4, IMO.
7. More fighter-less stages. Hanenbow, Smashville (my favorite), and Pictochat were real fun. But how about Tetris? HeliFire? Color TV Game 6? Duck Hunt?
8. More Assist Trophies! I'd love to see Duck Hunt Dog, Eggplant Wizard, Cucco, Amazon (Pro Wrestling), Sheriff, Balloon Fighters (pixel art), and Donkey Kong Jr. make an appearance.
9. More items and bring back Flipper. I'd love to play with Kuribo's Shoe, Ice Flower, and Switch Hook (Oracle of Ages).
10. Third-party newcomers should be Simon Belmont, Mega Man, and Pac-Man, IMO.
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Post by Game Guru on May 28, 2008 18:19:46 GMT -5
The problem is there is no evidence to back any of that up. We don't know who approached who. Sonic's inclusion was probably done by Sakurai as he has complete control over this project. If Nintendo would get involved, then we'd see things like Miis, but they are not truly in the game (not playable) so it doubtful Nintendo forced them in. Sega COULD have approached Nintendo, but then it begs the question: did no one else? If Sonic waltzes in when someone ask for it, then how come there weren't more? In the same vein, wouldn't Sega, or any other company, approached them day 1 (or at least soon). However, we do not know if Capcom ever approched him, or vise versa. All he said was he was waiting for Nintendo to call him. There is no evidence to back up any of the claims. The problem is it's wishful thinking. It's rather ludicrious actually. I would then retaliate with this... Why hasn't Geno appeared? He's a fan favorite character, so he should've at least been an Assist Trophy! If Nintendo or Sakurai was actively seeking out third-parties, you would think they would at least talked to Square-Enix, and from Mario & Luigi, Square-Enix would've likely agreed to allow them to use Geno. Now as for why companies wouldn't just waltz in, remember that there is indeed red tape surrounding video game franchises, and this red tape is caused by a company being unwilling to license out their characters. By merely waiting to see who bites, Nintendo can actually talk to the companies willing to license their franchises to Nintendo internationally. For example, Capcom might've actually approached Nintendo about Mega Man, but that Capcom wasn't willing to agree to Nintendo's terms to use Mega Man internationally in Brawl, and Nintendo broke the deal off, because they would rather have their game sell in all regions instead of just Japan. I said that at worst, Snake and Sonic will be the only third-parties in SSB4. But remember that Snake and Sonic are owned by Konami and Sega, and if Konami and Sega are willing to lend their most famous characters in Brawl, they would be willing to lend others. For Konami, it is easy to pick out characters they could use as they appeared in DreamMix... Simon Belmont and Power Pro. I said Simon Belmont because at least some people know who he is. As for the Sega character, I really do have a tough time thinking of a Sega character who is popular enough and from a franchise current enough that isn't from the Sonic Series, and if you look at the Sega character choices from fans, Tails and Knuckles ARE at the top of the list. Heck, they are probably higher than Simon Belmont. Maybe thinking that Mega Man and Ryu have a chance in the next game is wishful thinking, but who the heck expected Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers, Marth, Roy, Mr. Game & Watch, Snake, Pokemon Trainer, or R.O.B. to be fighters? Who the heck expected that we would still have clones, even if they are more unique than in Melee? I sure expected Ganondorf to use a sword, that's for sure. In reality, no one can guess what the real roster for SSB4 is going to be. For all we know, Microsoft might leave the console business, make Halo games for the Wii and DS, and Master Chief appears as a Smash Brother. All I can predict is that SSB4 will be on the Wii's successor and that after we do all this speculation, everyone is going to be disappointed at the roster, likely because they expect someone like Tom Nook to be playable, when Nintendo said outright that there would be no Animal Crossing fighter. EDIT: Already, there is stuff that shows that Tecmo could be involved in SSB4 because Nintendo apparently DOES own partial rights to at the very least Fatal Frame 4! |
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Post by Boo Destroyer on May 28, 2008 21:51:06 GMT -5
Now what other series have possibilities for other stages anyway?
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Post by Smashchu on May 28, 2008 23:16:25 GMT -5
I would then retaliate with this... Why hasn't Geno appeared? He's a fan favorite character, so he should've at least been an Assist Trophy! If Nintendo or Sakurai was actively seeking out third-parties, you would think they would at least talked to Square-Enix, and from Mario & Luigi, Square-Enix would've likely agreed to allow them to use Geno. Now as for why companies wouldn't just waltz in, remember that there is indeed red tape surrounding video game franchises, and this red tape is caused by a company being unwilling to license out their characters. By merely waiting to see who bites, Nintendo can actually talk to the companies willing to license their franchises to Nintendo internationally. For example, Capcom might've actually approached Nintendo about Mega Man, but that Capcom wasn't willing to agree to Nintendo's terms to use Mega Man internationally in Brawl, and Nintendo broke the deal off, because they would rather have their game sell in all regions instead of just Japan. On Geno, there may be multiple situations. Firstly, there was a rumor that Geno was too be in Brawl, but something happened along the way with SE. The other possibility is what DiU has argued, that Geno isn't important enough. He was a major character in a single Mario game. Of course, Sakurai counts him as a 1st/2nd party. But it's illogical to think that no one would have asked. Developers would love to get their character into the mishmash of Smash, the creator of Megaman is proof to this (don't know his name). In the same vein, companies would want to have their character in Brawl. Smash makes people want to play these characters games so it's accentually an advertisement. So if third parties just come ask to have their character, why was the max of 3 never hit? And also, why would Capcom not agree to Nintendo. More likely it would be the other way around. The company is letting Nintendo put their property in a game. So where is the money (another reason more third party characters doesn't equal better). I didn't see your "worst" part. i would say worst is they don't come back (if they are truly guest) but I see that as the least likely since Sakurai is usually good at bringing character back But the one thing that must be remembered is that third parties shouldn't be added for the hack of it. I've mentioned the practical reasons, but there are other reasons as well. If requested enough by the time SSB4 comes arround, then Megaman should be added. It's a character the fans want to play with. But why add characters people don't care about. Why add Simon, Ryu and Pac Man. Sure, someone wants to use them. Look around the internet and you'll see that almost every character is wanted by someone. But if the fans don't want him/her, why bother. There is also the problem of creating "Super Smash Brothers and Friends". It's nice to have Sonic and Snake, and heck, maybe even Megaman, but it becomes problematic and clusterwizzleish when you add a whole bunch of them. Some intergrety is lost when you go down this route. Well, hindsight is easier then foresight. It's easy to look back and say what happened then to see what's coming. Many of the characters added to Smash have both been ones people wanted to see and ones who meaned something to Nintendo. And we can even see why Sonic got in due to his popularity. But predicting 1st party characters is always challenging since there are just so many. But perhaps I digress. I can tell for early on Sakurai wanted third party characters to have a guest role. Sure, they are in Smash, but never a focus. I was also a bit surprised that they only had 2 rather then 3 (which is perhaps what hints me to the fewer is better idea). There isn't much predicting him but I do know that he seems to keep a Nintendo mindset to this game. A lot of people want to see third party characters, but it seems to be that it's opened a floodgate to new and interesting characters. It's understandable, but it must not be forgotten that third party characters are guest, and that, while it's once to have, shouldn't take away from the integrity of the game. Not sure that effects anything, but towards Nintendo owning rights, how so? EDIT:You did make some good points. Sorry if I didn't acknowledge them. |
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Post by Flip on May 29, 2008 16:16:28 GMT -5
Rather than respond to every little detail yourself and Sam have been making, I'm just going to mention that while I myself would adore SSB4 as a strictly Nintendo game (with loads of fresh faces, old and new), you can't disagree that my argument makes some sense. If the Japanese companies are struggling (save Nintendo) and coming together for all sorts of crossover games, if the fans EXPECT to see more 3rd party characters in the next game, and if you know that this will be an instantly-smart business decision... why avoid it?
All I need to do is refer to the review of Brawl given by everyone's most-hated web friend, Yahtzee: "Who the hell is Marth, and why is unlocking him an achievement?"
Yes, this is a Japanese game. But haven't we seen them shift the focus to making Smash more internationally friendly? We will NOT be seeing many more obscure, retro, or niche Nintendo characters next game. Maybe a few, but they will nowhere near dominate the game. If we see more Nintendo characters it will be the major players that were skipped over a third time, the names we all know: Waluigi, Little Mac, Dixie Kong, etc. There is no way I can see them effectively selling the game on characters like Marth and Ness anymore. It's just not going to sit well with hardly anybody BUT the hardcore fanbase (which is dwindling or at least growing very bitter). There are new Nintendo fans out there who couldn't give two rat's asses there was a console before the Wii (or the DS) and we see that already in Brawl: nothing pre-Wario Ware; Twilight Princess/Wind Waker dominate Zelda rep; major emphasis on Mario, Metroid Prime, and Pokemon; and although they went out of there way to include Pit, ROB, Ice Climbers, and others still, they lack any real "oomph" as far as extra content is concerned. Melee has Brawl beat by billions of light years where Nintendo nostalgia is concerned.
And this is why I feel strongly that the next Smash Bros. will place its focus not on Nintendo but on 3rd parties. Where else is there to go that won't alienate gamers but to things they still find familiar on Nintendo consoles? It would still be the likes of Mega Man and Sonic, characters who appear on Nintendo consoles and sell better on those than any other console. We're not talking the freaking floodgates being open for Cloud, Master Chief, or Heihachi. This is simply a further expansion of the principle of Smash Bros. and the creative and business decisions that were made during the development of Brawl. The time for "retro Smash" has long since passed with the death of the Gamecube and GBA; the Wii and the DS are not about that at all, and I think the future Smash games will be very reflective of this new attitude.
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Post by Manspeed on May 29, 2008 17:35:50 GMT -5
Will we be seeing "retro" anything anymore? I've maintained that some sort of RPG on the DS would've been a perfect spot to cram in obscure Nintendo characters and stuff while SSB and big console-related outings go down the route you're speaking of.
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Post by Boo Destroyer on May 29, 2008 19:38:02 GMT -5
Super Obscure Bros.
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Post by Flip on May 29, 2008 22:39:33 GMT -5
Will we be seeing "retro" anything anymore? I've maintained that some sort of RPG on the DS would've been a perfect spot to cram in obscure Nintendo characters and stuff while SSB and big console-related outings go down the route you're speaking of. It's a shame that is the way the industry is headed, but it makes sense 100% that retro was just another fad. All that said, and like you suggest, a big ass Nintendo RPG would be rad. Something maybe like NamcoXCapcom? Without the developer crossover aspect? |
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Post by Smashchu on May 30, 2008 1:15:40 GMT -5
I'll say a few things about Flips point, and try and wrap it up. I've said a ton of this before with a little change here and there so continuing may not be the best idea. Rather than respond to every little detail yourself and Sam have been making, I'm just going to mention that while I myself would adore SSB4 as a strictly Nintendo game (with loads of fresh faces, old and new), you can't disagree that my argument makes some sense. If the Japanese companies are struggling (save Nintendo) and coming together for all sorts of crossover games, if the fans EXPECT to see more 3rd party characters in the next game, and if you know that this will be an instantly-smart business decision... why avoid it? Of course, there are some negative aspects. I've mentioned a lot of them. For instance, people expect third parties, but few are actually highly requested. Even Megaman is a bit low, and the rest of them aren't worth noting in terms of request. Not to mention the amount of money Nintendo will get wont change much. Basically, some people will care that there are more 3rd party characters but A) some people wont buy it regardless (only thing good about Super Mario Smash is Snake is in it) and B)A lot of the people that want the characters will buy the game anyway. There probably would have been little changes in sales if Sonic wasn't in. The people who wanted him probably already had the game reserved. Plus, these companies need to collabe, not Nintendo. Nintendo usually doesn't collabe, ever. And it would probably not be Smash Bros. Not to mention that it would have to cut a lot of Nintendo cuts and make the new number of added characters 0. Yahtzee also thinks Mother 3 would outsell Mario Kart Wii if brought to the west. His opinion is a little moot but it's still a valid point (he's just become pretentious and isn't a gamer). It's what Fry said. The characters are going to get more and more obscured. All the major ones were hit in 64 and only a few really important ones are added each game. It can't really be said. Look at Brawl's roster. Meta-Knight, Pit, ZSS, Lucas, Ike, and perhaps King Dedede are all obscured (Olimar is kind of since the Gamecube didn't sell amazingly). Minus the third parties, only really Lucario (to some degree) Wario, Pokemon Trainer, and the two third party characters: Sonic and Snake. Even R.O.B. are obscured to people outside of Nintendo. The number of importiant characters will get smaller and smaller with each game, so it is inevitable, but it's also what Smash strives on. Creating a world of Nintendo dating from beginning to then. You make a good point, but I would disagree. I've said the majority of it before, so I'll just conclude. Smash has always been about the obscured. As Fry has mentioned, the major characters were in 64. The number of major characters has gone down, but still new characters are added. As we go down the line, it will get worse, but even with Brawl's obscureness, it sells. It's even about to beat Melee's lifetime sales and it's not out in Europe yet. Smash Bros works becuase it's the opinions of the fans. Fans that asked for characters like Ike, Olimar, Dedede and Pit. People that wanted to see those characters. People want to see Krystal and Issac playable come number 4 and that's what to be expected. Of course, this probably means we'll see more third parties, but I doubt it will be a slew of them. But like I mentioned before, there are plenty of characters left to use. Sure, they aren't all going to be "relevant" but probably only 20% of Brawl's roster is. It's really a fan game and what characters are relevant to them are probably what's going to get in. Smash will get mopre and more obscured as it goes down the line but sales will probably go up and up. It has amazing gameplay and a shitload of characters from many different games. It someways, it sells just becuase who is on the box. The mindset of Sakurai and Nintendo seems to be that Smash is a Nintendo fighting game that celebrates their history, and Brawl remains that way. Although, not sure your post was meant to be dissected. These are my final thoughts on the subject. Before Brawl, the concept was simple: Nintendo characters only. Of course, there was always a vote for Sonic, but that was the typical rule. Once Snake was shown it all went out the window. Then it really didn't matter, in the eyes of the Smash community, all third party characters were fair game. In some ways, it's too be expected. In Smash, you want to see your favorite character, and it's logical to assume someone's favorite characters can't just be Nintendo. So, of course, with the opportunity, they will want to see their favorite characters. In the process, they forget the purpose. It's mostly integrity. Third parties are guest. They are there as extra fighters, with some privileges as well. But it's not a focus. Now, everyone suggest every Sonic character under the sun and any third party character that's on their mind. It may just be the masses (usually don't think too much into this). But it's rarely a Nintendo character. But the purpose is Nintendo. Smash tried to take the world of Nintendo and cram it into a whole game, and from what we see with Brawl, it still has room for improvement. I think something will be lost with too many third party characters, that in the end, it moves less and less away from it's original target. It's a matter of purity. Maybe that's not the right word, but it's need to hit it's mark. It may sound stupid, but it can't stray too far from the Nintendo aspect. With too many third party characters, even a few, it becomes loss. As guest, it at least keep some of it's intent. But if the number gets too high then it whittles away at the heart of it. That it becomes kind of soulless and is no longer a celebration but a random mishmash. On the topic of Megaman Thought this a while back. One of the cool things about Snake and Sonic was they were unique. They weren't just a straight character, but they offered an interesting play style. Snake was a tactical fighter with his slow moves and weapons like C4. Sonic was an amazingly fast character making him harder to keep up with. Megaman, on the other hand, has very little to offer. He doesn't have a special power that hasn't been seen before, or a straight character attribute. I thought that perhaps he could change his blaster from defeating characters, but it was either to cumbersome or not that interesting. In the end, he would be too similar to Samus, save for some unique special moves.I think Snake and Sonic were purposely made like that to add them into this world in which they may be out of place. But Megaman can't seem to capitalize on it the same way the other two have. I'd be more happy with something like Veiwtiful Joe myself. |
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Post by TV Eye on May 30, 2008 11:01:11 GMT -5
I thought Snake and Sonic fit perfectly in the Smash universe...
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Post by Smashchu on May 30, 2008 11:35:14 GMT -5
I thought Snake and Sonic fit perfectly in the Smash universe... It's probably a matter of opinion. Sonic was ok, but still a little off, but Snake is really out of place. We have a lot of cartoonist characters fighting, and then we have Snake, a character who is realistic and uses real world fighting and weapons. He's just out of his elements. |
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Post by TV Eye on May 30, 2008 12:12:53 GMT -5
I thought Snake and Sonic fit perfectly in the Smash universe... We have a lot of cartoonist characters fighting, and then we have Snake, a character who is realistic and uses real world fighting and weapons. He's just out of his elements. Ike and Marth were pretty realistic, they just represented a different time period. Hell, every character did, Snake just represented modern warfare, and you you pay attention to his history, he's pretty unrealistic. The fact that he's a clone, and his main enemy in MGS4 will be Liquid Ocelot (Liquid Snake's soul in Revolver Ocelot's body, due to the fact that Ocelot has Liquid's arm.) Pretty crazy stuff. |
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Post by Spud on May 30, 2008 12:31:54 GMT -5
We have a lot of cartoonist characters fighting, and then we have Snake, a character who is realistic and uses real world fighting and weapons. He's just out of his elements. Ike and Marth were pretty realistic, they just represented a different time period. Hell, every character did, Snake just represented modern warfare, and you you pay attention to his history, he's pretty unrealistic. The fact that he's a clone, and his main enemy in MGS4 will be Liquid Ocelot (Liquid Snake's soul in Revolver Ocelot's body, due to the fact that Ocelot has Liquid's arm.) Pretty crazy stuff. I think he means graphically. |
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Post by Smashchu on May 30, 2008 12:36:16 GMT -5
We have a lot of cartoonist characters fighting, and then we have Snake, a character who is realistic and uses real world fighting and weapons. He's just out of his elements. Ike and Marth were pretty realistic, they just represented a different time period. Hell, every character did, Snake just represented modern warfare, and you you pay attention to his history, he's pretty unrealistic. The fact that he's a clone, and his main enemy in MGS4 will be Liquid Ocelot (Liquid Snake's soul in Revolver Ocelot's body, due to the fact that Ocelot has Liquid's arm.) Pretty crazy stuff. They never felt realistic. They wore capes and odd clothing, had blue hair and wielded swords. Snake used weapons seen in this modern world, and their pretty close to their real world counterpart. Story aside, Snake felt too realistic in almost every aspect, although Sakurai tried to change that. He didn't seem to fall into the set the other characters did. |
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Post by 8bitretroshit on May 30, 2008 12:44:58 GMT -5
And that's why Snake is the best newcomer, BECAUSE he's out of place. And it's really shown off in the codecs where he tries to make sense of the odd Nintendo All-Star cast, ussually mumbling or groaning when doing so. I guess that, even though Snake's world is one big fantasy like many other games, a lot of people don't want a 'real world' character between Smash's goofy fantasy cast.
And about uniqueness, Sonic being really really fast isn't that much different then Capt Falcon being really fast, Sonic's thing is just being really faster. Therefor I don't see what's wrong with Megaman being even more of a long-range specialist then Samus is.
Ofcourse Megaman's specialty is taking and using powers of enemies he defeated and yes that would be a little too much like Kirby. Though taking powers from opponents automatically by KO'ing and maybe the ability to use one of the enemy's other powers instead of just their neutral B, like Fox's reflector or Pikachu's quick attack, would differentiate him a lot. Probably won't happen though, plus if Sakurai's back in the lead I don't think he'll have a 3rd party character steal his creation's thunder.
But I agree Snake's tactical fighting is unique and awesome.
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