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Post by Koopaul on Feb 14, 2009 16:35:17 GMT -5
No offence Shrikeswind but I think my beta roster was way better than yours.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Feb 14, 2009 17:39:05 GMT -5
I made a beta roster?
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Post by Koopaul on Feb 14, 2009 17:48:05 GMT -5
Check the first couple of pages. It wasn't just a list, but a design and layout.
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Post by Manspeed on Feb 14, 2009 19:03:15 GMT -5
57 is an odd number yet 39 wasn't?  And the grid was a bad idea? That's what SSB64, Melee, and Brawl has been doing. All of the characters are grouped together. And doing so makes the select screen look professional - clean and organized. You said yourself that its impossible to make the perfect roster. I tried to make a good roster that I thought would make many people happy (including myself). I mean, many people hated the Melee and Brawl rosters when they were finally revealed but eventually grew to love them. I don't doubt that if the SSB4 roster is revealed, many people would hate it and say Brawl was way better than Melee, just like they said Melee was way better than Brawl. First off, there were technically 40 characters in Brawl since Pokemon Trainer is billed as his own character in-game. Second, it's already been mentioned by a couple of other users in here that using the layout of the select screen isn't the right way to determine who is deserving of a spot in Brawl. It's completely asinine and has virtually no merit. What is they decided to drop the grid for SSB4 and go with something more unorthodox? I said it was impossible to make a good roster because everybody has a radically different viewpoint and tends to let their own tastes get in the way of speculation (seriously, you're ONLY ONE who wants Overalls Wario and the Hunting Dog as playable characters). If we continue on with such a mentality, we'll never get anywhere. No offence Shrikeswind but I think my beta roster was way better than yours. Oh come on, there's no need to be an egotist. |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Feb 14, 2009 20:16:43 GMT -5
Check the first couple of pages. It wasn't just a list, but a design and layout. You, uh, you do realize that list was designed as an overall who-likes-what for this thread, right? |
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Post by Koopaul on Feb 14, 2009 23:16:01 GMT -5
Well I just think my list makes more sense is all. I picked characters that were generally wanted in the game by fans, new characters with a stable franchise, old characters with great history, or characters that play an important role in a successful series.
Now I really wanted Captain Rainbow, but I excluded him from my list due to him sadly lacking the qualities above.
There were plenty of characters I'd like to see but realize they don't have a place on that roster.
Here. These are the types of characters I believe shouldn't go in (with exceptions)
-Characters with no significance to their series.
(this can be debatable as to what "significance" may mean to that character)
-Characters from a failed franchise.
(unless the character has a large fan base and significant to their series and Nintendo)
-Characters who have appeared only once in a series.
(unless that series has a different cast everytime like Mother or Fire Emblem)
-Characters who have a role less important to a character yet to be in the game. (once that important character gets in, then the other character should be allowed, given that it's next in line)
Those are the most feasible reasons in my eyes. But these are not good reasons to exclude a character.
-Character is too big or too small.
-Character is Japan only.
-Character looks weak/ can't fight.
Those are poor reasons to exclude a character.
Now remember this is just how I personally feel, I'm not telling anyone what can't be in. However I do think we should have a character rules or something.
Oh and PLEASE don't take offense to anything, I'm only making an opinion. I'm probably wrong.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Feb 15, 2009 22:41:16 GMT -5
I don't take offence, as opinion is neither wrong nor right, because it is a view-point. You do make a GREAT point on the feasibility of those reasons, such as "Oh, Ridley is huge, he can't be in" or "Stafy's Japan only, he shouldn't be in" being crap. Incapacity to fight is a good one, but only for those who you are able to say without a hint of doubt that they can't, because sometimes, you can't get around it, a character is absolutely unable to fight, such as Mother Brain (can't move an inch) and Magikarp (if you can make a moveset for the winner of the dubious title of "World's Weakest Pokemon," you will earn my utmost respect.)
I do find your roster interesting and have to concur on it. If you're interested in that sort of thing I'd be happy to talk to you about it in PM.
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Post by Arcadenik on Feb 16, 2009 11:14:27 GMT -5
We have 33 Nintendo characters in Brawl, so we need to come up with 17 Nintendo characters who "deserve" to be playable in SSB4 if we want a perfect 50-character roster. So, who are the 17 Nintendo characters who deserve it the most?
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Post by Flip on Feb 16, 2009 12:07:24 GMT -5
Koopaul, your final three credentials do seem to be something that Sakurai adheres to. However, part of the reason he chose Ice Climbers over, say, Balloon Fighter or Urban Champion is that the latter two had no abilities. If you think about it, Popo and Nana have a lot more potential for skills than a guy who punches and a man who needs balloons to survive.
Likewise I think that he may have been following this "flawgic" when it came to characters like Little Mac, who really do "only punch." It's ironic considering that he did include Fox and Falcon, but all things considered their popularity outweighed any options of discluding them.
Finally I think that your other points are pretty spot-on to what the team decided. All things considered, characters like Isaac and Ray are nowhere near the recognizability and fame of the playable fighters. You may have a million seller in Golden Sun, but does it have staying power like Metroid or Star Fox? Probably not. The series pretty much died after two games and the majority of gamers today would not remember the franchise too well regardless. The reason characters like Pit and Game and Watch survive, while characters like Ray and Isaac fail, is because they have existed for a longer period of time. There's a magical point where gamers can accept something as nostalgic after it has been around for so long; anything below that mystical period in time, which is not consistently updated from year-to-year, is negligible. Eventually a character like Isaac will appear in a Smash Bros. game, but only when the Golden Sun series has hit a certain point of "ripeness" where people rediscover the game and compliment is a "nostalgic masterpiece." People are fucking weird, I know, but that's how I figure it all came about.
Also, the Japan-only thing is bull because we got Marth and Lucas. It's NOA that wants to cut Japan-only characters; NCL seems to think that NOA, and the West in general, are pretty useless outside of dollar signs (considering how much Japan-only content did make it into Brawl that completely left Western gamers in the dark). Takamaru, Captain Rainbow, and the rest of that gang still have just as much potential for appearing as any other character.
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Post by Manspeed on Feb 16, 2009 14:18:49 GMT -5
Do they really? How can you tell?  |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Feb 16, 2009 19:50:22 GMT -5
We have 33 Nintendo characters in Brawl, so we need to come up with 12 Nintendo characters who "deserve" to be playable in SSB4 if we want a perfect 50-character roster. So, who are the 12 Nintendo characters who deserve it the most? Fixed, because we need to make room for potential future games and franchises that would deserve the position. We should make a 45-character roster and understand that 5 characters may not exist yet. |
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Post by Koopaul on Feb 16, 2009 22:07:19 GMT -5
Flip's got my logic pinned down.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Feb 17, 2009 0:39:42 GMT -5
SPECULATION AHEAD
Okay, this is just speculation, but here's an interesting idea. Do you remember how, back in the Melee days, everyone guessed who'd hit SSB3 based on the trophies? So, for example, Meta Knight and Pit had a trophy, so everyone thought (and eventually were proven right) that they'd get playability in Brawl? Bear with me, because this is just speculation, but if Sakurai follows suit to SSB4, he may do it on music. Reason for my speculation? There are 303 songs on the Brawl soundtrack, which does include the songs written for the Smash Bros. franchise but not the little songs like the Starman and Hammer, the micro-games in the WarioWare Inc. stage, the Fanfare, and the quick songs on Yoshi's Island. In Melee, there were 293 trophies, which also includes the trophies made for Melee. The 10 item difference is negligible. Brawl has 544, which is MUCH more than in Melee, equating to a much less believable transfer. Now, my interest is in the Nintendo series songs, because that's where unlisted series lie, like the trophies in Melee.
Nintendo Series list
Balloon Trip
Shin Onigashima
Clu Clu Land
Famicom Medley
Power-Up Music (Wrecking Crew)
Douchuumen (Nazo no Murasame-Jou)
Mii Channel
Lip's Theme (Panel de Pon)
Title (3D Hot Rally)
Tunnel Scene (X)
Marionation Gear
Golden Forest (1080* Snowboarding)
Battle Scene / Final Boss (Golden Sun)
Excite Truck
Mach Rider
I cut out several songs for several reasons, and I'll also point out that some songs are attributable to Assist Trophies, such as Battle Scene / Final Boss (Golden Sun) to Isaac, but leave them there. The songs I'm interested in are Balloon Trip, Shin Onigashima, Clu Clu Land, Douchuumen, Mii Channel, Lip's Theme, Marionation Gear, Golden Forest, and Mach Rider.
Balloon Fight has actually had refs in both Melee and Brawl, in Melee it was the music and the Flipper, here it's the music and the fish. It's understandable if a character doesn't appear, but the option's still there. Panel de Pon has had cameos in the series for two games now, the Lip's Stick and the block, and now there's music. Interesting, but little more. Marionation Gear is from a new series to Brawl where we get trophies and music only. Most interesting one so far, but still understandable.
Now, here's where it gets interesting. Shin Onigashima, Clu Clu Land, Nazo no Murasame-Jou, Wii software, 1080 Snowboarding, and Mach Rider have had little if any references outside of music in the Smash series (Mach Rider and Shin Onigashima had trophies in Melee,) and except for Mach Rider, all of these songs have only just popped up in the Smash series. That's 6 songs. Brawl's new characters were Olimar, Diddy Kong, Ike, King Dedede, Lucario, Lucas, Meta Knight, Pit, Pokémon Trainer, Snake, Sonic, Wario, ZS Samus, Wolf, and R.O.B. Some of these characters (Ike, Lucario, and Lucas,) didn't exist by the time Melee was out, so they had no trophies, similarly, Melee didn't have third party characters in it yet, so Snake and Sonic had no trophies. Diddy Kong, Wolf, the Pokemon Trainer, and ROB didn't have a trophy either, though Wolf did have his cameo and the Wolfens, while Diddy Kong was the only major Donkey Kong character to NOT have a trophy in Melee, both of which made them distinct. This leaves Olimar, King Dedede, Meta Knight, Pit, Wario, and Zero Suit Samus as the 6 who converted from trophies to characters (the Zero Suit didn't exist yet, but Samus without her helmet did have a trophy, a possible precursor to what we have today.) Another case of Lucky Number 6. My interest is therefore on those 6 songs, which would mean, if this speculation is accurate, that we may get characters from Shin Onigashima, Clu Clu Land, Nazo no Murasame-Jou, Wii software or equivalent, 1080 Snowboarding, and Mach Rider. My character speculation, therefore, based on this, is Donbe & Hikari, Bubbles, Takamaru, Mii or equivalent, Akari Hayami, and Mach Rider in SSB4.
SPECULATION OVER
You know, in case I'm right. Which I myself doubt.
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Post by Flip on Feb 17, 2009 11:19:55 GMT -5
Do they really? How can you tell? Oi, this again? It's a point I'm trying to make based on the amount of STUFF that Japan seems to get over the Western market. |
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Post by Sqrt2 on Feb 17, 2009 11:43:47 GMT -5
Who are NCL exactly? You mean Nintendo of Japan (NOJ) or something, right? Oi, this again? It's a point I'm trying to make based on the amount of STUFF that Japan seems to get over the Western market. Apart from Mother 3, there aren't many games that are Japan-only nowadays, are there? |
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And the grid was a bad idea? That's what SSB64, Melee, and Brawl has been doing. All of the characters are grouped together. And doing so makes the select screen look professional - clean and organized.
