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Post by Manspeed on Feb 26, 2009 21:22:36 GMT -5
Well, she hasn't reappeared yet, so I guess talking about her getting into SSB is leading to a dead end.
I am also of the opinion that Mario has enough characters and that adding any more would be pushing it.
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Post by Arcadenik on Feb 26, 2009 21:30:08 GMT -5
Hmmm... so 4 Mario characters (and I'm not counting Yoshi and Wario because they got their own series) is enough yet 4 Zelda characters and 4 Pokemon characters are apparently not enough to do the franchises justice?
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Post by Johans Nidorino on Feb 26, 2009 21:59:27 GMT -5
And now that you mention that, what if Yoshi and Wario do count or have counted the whole time, at least partially, for this "balancing" stuff? As in "there are Yoshi and Mario characters, who grouped together shouldn't be many more than 5/4 times the amount of Zelda characters" (it's just an example).
I'm on a fence about adding more Mario characters just because of that thought.
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Post by Arcadenik on Feb 26, 2009 22:12:30 GMT -5
Yoshi and Wario being the 5th and 6th Mario reps would mean they would have to have the mushroom as their world icons instead of the egg and the letter W. So that would mean SSB4 doesn't get Yoshi and Wario franchises, its just Mario and DK franchises.
But what about Zelda and Pokemon? Shouldn't they have 4 reps or 5 reps. It isn't fair if Mario gets 4 and these two get 5. They are Nintendo's top three franchises.
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Post by Johans Nidorino on Feb 26, 2009 22:21:36 GMT -5
Everybody knows their icons, but what I meant is: what if they still counted as a group for this type of decisions, regardless of the icons, in Melee and Brawl?
Compare that question to the "limit" of non-Nintendo characters that could the game have. They can be from more than one game (like Sonic and Snake), but they still have a shared characteristic.
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Post by Arcadenik on Feb 26, 2009 23:05:37 GMT -5
Maybe we already have 8 Mario characters in Brawl if we count Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong, too, seeing how they are regularly included in Mario spin-off games.  The way I see it, the Marioverse cast are split into two categories: Mario main series and Mario spin-off franchises. Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser are under the former category while Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Yoshi, and Wario are under the latter category. Edit: For once, someone besides me finally mentioned characters counted as a group based on shared characteristics. Johans, this is exactly how I planned out my 9x5 roster. Sorry about repeating myself but these are the 9 categories I sorted 44 characters in: Column #1: Mario main series - Mario, Luigi, Peach, Toad, Bowser Column #2: Mario spin-off franchises - Donkey Kong, Diddy & Dixie, King K. Rool, Yoshi & Baby Mario, Wario Column #3: Zelda franchises - Link, Zelda/Sheik, Ganondorf, Toon Link, Tingle Column #4: Disk System franchises - Samus/ZZS, Pit, Little Mac, Takamaru, Ice Climbers Column #5: Game Boy & Gamecube cutesy franchises - Kirby, Meta Knight, King Dedede, Olimar, Starfy Column #6: SNES & N64 sci-fi franchises - Fox, Falco (or Krystal), Wolf (or Krystal), Captain Falcon, Saki Amamiya Column #7: Pokemon franchises - Pokemon Trainer, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Meowth, 5th Gen Pokemon Column #8: RPG franchises that are not Japan-only anymore - Marth, New FE Lord, Ness, Lucas, Commanding Officer Column #9: Characters that represent Nintendo hardware - Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., Hunting Dog, Mii (or Captain Rainbow) + Random Select |
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Post by kirbychu on Feb 27, 2009 9:11:40 GMT -5
Also, adding Malon and Talon would be like adding Daisy and Waluigi. They are just that... recurring supporting characters. I'll change my mind if Malon gets her own game like Tingle did.  ...Nobody ever made a case for adding Malon to Smash Bros., Arcadenik. I just pointed out that the Zelda series does have recurring characters outside of the main four and Tingle, since somebody used the series' lack of recurring characters as a point against Midna ever returning. Which is a dumb point. Because plenty of much less popular characters have returned. |
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Post by Arcadenik on Feb 27, 2009 9:34:48 GMT -5
Point taken, kirbychu. The notable exception is Sheik. He/she appeared in only one game yet is playable in Melee and Brawl. Though I'm certain that if Sheik wasn't really Zelda, Sheik would never been playable in the first place. I think that's the only reason Sheik is playable - because he/she is Zelda's alter ego in OOT despite Zelda looking like the TP version. I wonder if Zelda gets a new alter ego in a future Zelda game, would that alter ego replace Sheik? Yes, I know the notion of replacing a character is unbearable but its entirely possible. I'm just covering possibilities.
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Post by Sqrt2 on Feb 27, 2009 9:40:12 GMT -5
Personally, I think the number of reps a franchise gets, should be proportional to the popularity of that franchise: More popular franchises (eg, Mario, Zelda and Pokemon) get the most reps available (say, 5 or 6), whilst less popular franchises (Mother, Fire Emblem, and F-Zero for example) get only 2 or 3 reps (with obscure games getting one character).
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Post by kirbychu on Feb 27, 2009 9:56:00 GMT -5
I wonder if Zelda gets a new alter ego in a future Zelda game, would that alter ego replace Sheik? Yes, I know the notion of replacing a character is unbearable but its entirely possible. I'm just covering possibilities. Personally, I'd have loved a Toon Zelda/Tetra combination. |
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Post by Koopaul on Feb 27, 2009 10:13:27 GMT -5
The problem with a fifth Mario rep, is there really a fifth most important Mario character? Ask yourself, after Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser who's the next most important Mario character? Yoshi? Wario? They're already in there! I think we're fine with Mario.
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Post by Arcadenik on Feb 27, 2009 11:09:23 GMT -5
In order of importance in the Mario series:
#1 - Mario
#2 - Luigi
#3 - Bowser
#4 - Peach
#5 - Yoshi
#6 - Wario
#7 - Donkey Kong
#8 - ?
I'm not counting Diddy Kong because he's #2 in Donkey Kong's spin-off series. Yoshi and Wario also have their own spin-off games. Daisy, Waluigi, and Toadette are certainly not important in the main Mario games except spin-off games so they aren't #8. So we come down to Bowser Jr. and Toad.
Bowser Jr. seems to be the second main antagonist of the Mario series now in recent games like Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Galaxy, and New Super Mario Bros. He's the 8th most important Mario character now.
Toad seems to represent the early years in the Mario series when it used to be all about solid platforming games and he was the 5th most important Mario character long before Yoshi, Wario, and Bowser Jr. showed up.
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Post by Spud on Feb 27, 2009 11:26:02 GMT -5
I wonder if Zelda gets a new alter ego in a future Zelda game, would that alter ego replace Sheik? Yes, I know the notion of replacing a character is unbearable but its entirely possible. I'm just covering possibilities. |
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Post by Arcadenik on Feb 27, 2009 14:13:24 GMT -5
Tetra would have been "Toon Sheik" to go with Toon Zelda when they were planned to be in Brawl at one point. I think the reason why Zelda's latest alter ego (Tetra) wasn't in Brawl is because Tetra is young Zelda's alter ego, not adult Zelda's alter ego. I'm speculating here now so please bear with me. If a future Zelda game features adult Link and adult Zelda, they would likely replace TP's art style with theirs. Additionally, if adult Zelda in said game had Sheik or no alter egos, Zelda would likely retain Sheik as her alter ego in SSB4. If said adult Zelda had a new alter ego in said game, it is entirely possible that this alter ego would replace Sheik and use a very similar moveset Sheik had in Brawl. Now, if that Zelda game had young Link and young Zelda and its not cel-shaded like TWW, its entirely possible that this new young Link would replace both Link and Toon Link and this new young Zelda would replace Zelda and possibly Sheik too, especially if said Zelda didn't have Sheik nor a new alter ego in said game. If this new young Zelda had a new alter ego, this alter ego could get in over Tetra since Tetra is no longer the latest alter ego. Of course its also possible that the Zelda franchise could still continue the same route they are going now - adult Zelda games in realistic art style and young Zelda games in cartoony art style. That would likely bring Toon Zelda and "Toon Sheik" (whether its Tetra or a new alter ego) in as the 5th Zelda rep, leaving Tingle out in the cold again. In short, trying to come up with the Zelda roster can get messy as with the Pokemon roster. 1. Link 2. Zelda (and Sheik, new alter ego, or none) 3. Ganondorf or Ganon 4. Toon Link or Tingle 5. Toon Zelda (and Tetra, new alter ego, or none) or Vaati or a new character |
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Post by Manspeed on Feb 27, 2009 17:35:04 GMT -5
I always figured the "Triforce" was all Zelda needed, since most other recurring characters are usually just there for sidequests. Having an alternate Link and maybe Zelda seems like the furthest they can go.
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The way I see it, the Marioverse cast are split into two categories: Mario main series and Mario spin-off franchises. Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser are under the former category while Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Yoshi, and Wario are under the latter category.
