Smash Bros. Rumble - A NinDB Production

[Flip]

Technically, the original cast of SSB64 was all the series needed. I remember Fry saying that a while back and I had to agree. Any cast additions since that point have been to throw in secondary characters such as sidekicks or villains, or to include other popular (but non-essential) characters or franchises. Consider the roster changes between all three games and I think you can agree.

The biggest issue with everybody, it seems, is the whole "obscure" factor. There is always one obscure character that gets added to the game, and I figure that's the "Law of Crossover Fighting Games" or some bull because they all do it. But it doesn't mean that they start tossing in Sky Skipper or the penguin from Pinball. I disagree with the choice to disclude characters like Mac and Takamaru for the time being, but I think I can understand the logic if you're trying to build a roster that's very balanced between famous primary stars, their secondary friends, and a handful of golden oldies. You can't inflate the game with all of one type of character, and that's probably why Sakurai chose to cut off, say, the Mario and Zelda camps where he did.

In a few years, when we get Smash 4, I'm sure we will get to see a few new "golden oldies" and some more secondary characters, like everybody's wishing for, but only if there's a decent amount of "stars" to go along with them as well. So, that said, the "secret" to unlocking the potential Smash 4 roster probably lies in figuring out who the hell the new "Marios" and "Links" could be that they haven't put in the game quite yet.

Any guesses?

EDIT: And to give you an idea of what I mean, I think that an Animal Crossing character would definitely be of "star" caliber if included. When Punch-Out Wii comes out, Mac would be one as well. However, a character like Takamaru would still fall under "golden oldie" because he hasn't gotten a new game in over 20 years.

[Johans Nidorino]

I guess that's like choosing who would appear in the very first trailer of SSB4 like Wario and Pit did in 2006. I certainly would picture ones like Little Mac in that.

[rukifellth]

Hmmm, about Demille, I think it's okey to stick with his original design

But I got a sort of interesting idea conserning the "fifth" mario character, Why not do something unexpected and throw in one of the Koopalings?

Hmmm, How about Larry Koopa? Among all the Koopalings, he got the most advanced stuff tricks and traps of the lot. Not forgetting that he could have interesting movesets with his tennis racket...

An idea for his Special moves would be:

B: Fireball- Not being as powerfull as papa Bowser, he can only spit fireballs, but unlike Mario and Luigi, they are more powerfull, and he can aim how they will be fired. In other words, if you hold up, then he will spit it out high, and so on...

Forward B: Spiked Shell- Unlike Bowser's Spinning Fortress, Larry's is more based on Squirtle's Forward B move. But it is slightly slower to stop than Squirtle's, but more powerfull instead...

Up B: Morton Crush- Inspired by his brother Morton Koopa Jr, he has learned to make a big leap in the air, and crash down with a thud. A lot like Bowser's Up B in other words.

Down B: Koopa Tornado- Like most koopalings did in Mario&Luigi Superstar Saga, he will spin around like crazy, a bit like Mario and Luigi's Tornado move. Maiby he's mocking them?

Final Smash: Magical Wand- Granted with the power of the Magical Wand, he is now able for a short period of time to fire devastating magical projectiles like in SMB3. And boy, are the POWERFULL...

Just an idea

But I still consider Demille a high priority character considering that he's basically a representant of AlphaDreams....

[Manspeed]

If it weren't for the fact that AlphaDream made Mario & Luigi first. Otherwise Demille basically has hardly any real significance.

...and no, Larry Koopa has less of a shot than Waluigi at getting into SSB. He's just another mini-boss when it comes right down to it.

[kirbychu]

Feb 28, 2009 20:00:30 GMT -5 Manspeed said:

If it weren't for the fact that AlphaDream made Mario & Luigi first. Otherwise Demille basically has hardly any real significance.

Uhh, no. No they didn't.

They did make Koto Battle before Tomato Adventure, but that game is even more obscure. Those are the only two original games AlphaDream have made, pretty much everything else is Mario or Hamtaro.

[Arcadenik]

Flip, what you just said is exactly what I've tried to do for a couple months. I completed a very logical and fairly reasonable (but not perfect) roster that I thought would make many people (including myself) happy on October 2008. So, to celebrate my 1,000th post I'll explain my SSB4 roster choices in depth. Its a very long read, though, but I hope it helps you guys understand where I'm coming from.

First thing I did was remove Snake and Sonic because they are third-party guests thus emphasizing the focus on Nintendo. I really don't think Nintendo would want to go through the hassle with legal mumbo-jumbo again just to include third-party characters.

Next thing I did was take Brawl's 9x4 roster and added one more row. I did it because I noticed that SSB64 had 2 rows, Melee had 3 rows, and Brawl had 4 rows, so why not 5 rows in SSB4? And that's how I came up with the 9x5 grid. I really think this is probably the most logical step to make. Many of us believed that Brawl would have 50 characters just because Melee doubled the roster from SSB64.

SSB64: 12
Melee: 12x2=24 (really 25/26)
Brawl: 25x2=50 (really 35/39)
SSB4: 35x2=70 (keep dreaming! )

So with 44-45 characters as the minumum limit, I came up with 40 potential newcomers, both expected and unexpected. Knowing that there's no way SSB4 would have over 60 characters, I had to narrow the choices but I needed a plan to help me make careful decisions. I relied on Brawl's roster as a guide and categorized the 9 columns into groups. Doing that made it easier for me to sort 40 characters into 9 categories and determine who have the high priority to be playable.

#1 - Candidates for the Mario Main Series category: Bowser Jr., Toad, Paper Mario, Dr. Mario

#2 - Candidates for the Mario Spin-Off Franchises category: Dixie Kong, King K. Rool, Donkey Kong Jr., Baby Mario & Baby Luigi, Overalls Wario

#3 - Candidates for the Zelda Franchises category: Tingle, Toon Zelda / Tetra

#4 - Candidates for the Disk System Franchises category: Takamaru, Ridley, Dark Samus, Little Mac, Sukapon, Balloon Fighter

#5 - Candidates for the GameBoy+Gamecube Cutesy Franchises category: Starfy, Muddy Mole, Isaac, Lip, Animal Crosser

#6 - Candidates for the SNES+N64 Sci-Fi Franchises category: Krystal, Samurai Goroh, Black Shadow, Saki Amamiya

#7 - Candidates for the Pokemon Franchises category: Mewtwo, Meowth, Pokemon Ranger, 5th Gen Pokemon

#8 - Candidates for the Former Japan-Only RPG Franchises category: Ninten, Claus, Masked Man, Porky, Roy, New FE Lord, Andy

#9 - Candidates for the Characters Representing Nintendo Hardware category (aka the WTF category): Hunting Dog, Captain Rainbow, Mii

Now, I'll explain my choices. The 2nd column is the Mario Spin-Off Franchises and I squeezed in as much as possible. Donkey Kong gets 4 reps in 3 slots - Donkey Kong, Diddy & Dixie (as a team), and King K. Rool. Yoshi gets 2 reps in 1 slot - simply have Baby Mario ride on Yoshi's back when you select Yoshi on the character select screen and play as Baby Mario alone with the Yoshi's Egg following along when you select Baby Mario on the character select screen. Wario gets 2 reps in 1 slot - Wario gets two movesets depending on his wardrobe - WarioWare outfit grants him his old moveset from Brawl and Wario Land outfit grants him a new moveset based off Wario Land games.

The 4th column is the Famicom Disk System Franchises. I wanted to showcase more franchises so I added Little Mac (popular NES game and would likely be a popular game on the Wii) and Takamaru (popular Japan-only FDS game) instead of adding more Metroid characters. Ridley is too big (seriously, the only time he was Samus-sized was the original NES game and Melee's intro ) that I think he would work better as a boss and Dark Samus would likely end up being a clone of Samus anyway. I did not add Sukapon because I read somewhere that Sakurai said he wouldn't put Sukapon in a SSB game plus he's too obscure with little significance to Nintendo. I did not add Balloon Fighter because I figured Tingle would be a far more interesting Balloon Fighter than a generic one plus the Ice Climbers already represent the pre-FDS games anyway. Oh, and Sakurai already said Balloon Fighter (and Excitebike, Urban Champion, and Bubbles) wouldn't work well for various reasons (kinda like why I wouldn't suggest Diskun ).

The 5th column is the GameBoy+Gamecube Cutesy Franchises. We have Kirby, Meta Knight, King Dedede, and Olimar so we only need one more. I chose Starfy over Muddy Mole, Isaac, Lip, and Animal Crosser. Starfy is the only one who has the most games out of the bunch and is no longer Japan-only therefore he's the most marketable, which greatly helps his chances. I didn't choose Animal Crosser because Sakurai determined that Animal Crossing characters wouldn't fit as fighters despite the franchise's popularity. I didn't choose Isaac because his series pretty much died after two games despite its popularity. I didn't choose Lip because she's fairly obscure despite her series gaining international popularity (mainly because she's Japan-only while the series are not). I didn't choose Muddy Mole because he's obscure and isn't very significant to Nintendo which is unfortunate because I really would love to play as him.

The 6th column is the SNES+N64 Sci-Fi Franchises. Star Fox gets 3 reps (it doesn't matter whether I chose Krystal to replace either Falco or Wolf or not) and F-Zero already have 1 rep. So I opted for Saki Amamiya from Sin & Punishment (very popular import N64 game, will likely be a popular game on the Wii with Sin & Punishment 2) because I wanted to showcase more franchises plus Sakurai already said Saki looked like he fits right in Brawl so why not? So I didn't add neither Samurai Goroh and Black Shadow for these very reasons.

The 8th column is the Former Japan-Only RPG Franchises which Mother, Fire Emblem, and Wars are. Ness and Lucas return along with Marth. But I wanted a new franchise so I added Andy (aka Commanding Officer) so that meant Fire Emblem only gets 2 reps. So I had to pick New FE Lord to replace Ike instead of keeping him and adding clones Roy, Ninten, and Claus.

The 9th column is the Characters Representing Nintendo Hardware. It is also the WTF column with both Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B. representing Game & Watch units and Gyromite/Stack-Up respectively. I chose Hunting Dog to represent the Zapper-based NES games because Duck Hunt was the most popular Zapper game and was even bundled with the NES and Super Mario Bros.! He could also represent Nintendo's first arcade game Laser Clay Shooting System (also Nintendo's first light gun-based game) which was pretty much the inspiration of the Duck Hunt series. It was a toss-up between Captain Rainbow and Mii but I chose Captain Rainbow mainly because of the nature of his game (he interacts with obscure Nintendo characters so why not with popular ones?). The Miis could be used in Fighter Builder (kinda like Stage Builder but with characters) and could replace the Random Select slot (the 45th slot) and would naturally represent the Wii.

Notice I didn't discuss columns #1, #3, and #7. It can get very messy when trying to determine the Mario, Zelda, and especially Pokemon rosters. So I'll leave them up as undetermined for the next year to see any news with the Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon franchises.

1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Toad or Bowser Jr. or Paper Mario or Dr. Mario

6. Wario (WarioWare / Wario Land)
7. Yoshi / Baby Mario
8. Donkey Kong
9. Diddy Kong / Dixie Kong
10. King K. Rool

11. Link
12. Zelda / Sheik (or new Alter Ego or none)
13. Ganondorf or Ganon
14. Toon Link or Tingle or New Zelda Character
15. Toon Zelda / Tetra (or new Alter Ego or none) or Tingle or New Zelda Character

16. Takamaru
17. Samus / Zero Suit Samus
18. Pit
19. Little Mac
20. Ice Climbers

21. Kirby
22. Meta Knight
23. King Dedede
24. Olimar
25. Starfy

26. Fox
27. Falco or Krystal
28. Wolf or Krystal
29. Captain Falcon
30. Saki Amamiya

31. Pokemon Trainer
32. Pikachu
33. Jigglypuff
34. Meowth or Mewtwo or Lucario or 5th Gen Pokemon or Pokemon Ranger
35. Meowth or Mewtwo or Lucario or 5th Gen Pokemon or Pokemon Ranger

36. Ness
37. Lucas
38. Marth
39. New FE Lord
40. Commanding Officer

41. Mr. Game & Watch
42. R.O.B.
43. Hunting Dog
44. Captain Rainbow or Mii
45. Random or Mii

I narrowed 40 possible newcomers down to just about 17-21 most logical newcomers. I added 7-8 new franchises so now my SSB4 roster have 24-25 franchises in total. I only added two Japan-only newcomers (Takamaru and Captain Rainbow) and two retro newcomers (Takamaru and Hunting Dog). Starfy is no longer Japan-only, Little Mac is no longer retro, and Saki Amamiya is no longer Japan-only and retro. Commanding Officer hails from a popular franchise that is no longer Japan-only. Mii is the international icon of the Wii. The other 12-21 potential newcomers come from popular franchises like Mario, Wario, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Zelda, Star Fox, Pokemon, and Fire Emblem.

On top of that, I think I made a good job balancing the franchises. Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon each get 5 slots. Donkey Kong, Kirby, and Star Fox each get 3 slots. Mother and Fire Emblem each get 2 slots. All the other franchises each get 1 slot.

I also think I did a good job balancing the "primary stars", "secondary stars", and "golden oldies". Sure I didn't add a 2nd F-Zero rep, a 3rd Fire Emblem rep, a 3rd Mother rep, and a 4th Star Fox rep but think of how much more attention SSB4 would get if the newcomers from popular unrepresented franchises were added instead! Little Mac from Punch-Out!! (Wii), Starfy from The Legendary Starfy (DS), Saki Amamiya from Sin & Punishment 2 (Wii), and Commanding Officer from Advance Wars (GBA) plus three obscure franchises from Duck Hunt (NES), Nazo no Murasamejou (FDS), and Captain Rainbow (Wii) and maybe Wii Sports (though not obscure). The way I see it, SSB4's first trailer could showcase Little Mac, Takamaru, Starfy, Saki Amamiya, and Commanding Officer with Mario, Link (likely with a new design from a future Zelda game), Kirby, Pikachu, and Pit (hopefully with a new design from a future Kid Icarus game) to appeal both older and younger fans.

Eventually a SSB4 website could be launched and updated daily on weekdays. Many people would be delighted to see newcomers Baby Mario (riding Yoshi's back and playable with Yoshi's Egg), Dixie Kong (as a team with Diddy Kong), Wario's alternate costume/moveset, and a new FE Lord along with the newcomers from SSB4's first trailer and 20 veterans from Brawl for a grand total of 26 starting characters. That would mean 18 unlockable characters (10 veterans and 8 newcomers) for a grand total of 44 characters! It could exceed 50 if you include transformations and alternate movesets so there would be no need for a 10x5 roster.

[Manspeed]

You're kidding right? Nobody wants to see Baby Mario glued to Yoshi's back.

...and no second F-ZERO rep but adding even more Mario and Zelda characters!? That's completely ridiculous. I don't know what made you think your choices are the best possible, because some of them really aren't.

If anything, Little Mac, Starfy, and Saki are the best ones you picked, if only because their respective franchises are finally getting revivals/localizations. The Mii might have a chance, but the whole customizable character really seems to contradict the whole philosophy behind Smash Bros.

Commadning Officer or any Wars character isn't getting in. Japan hates the Wars games. Captain Rainbow definitely isn't getting in, because his game sold like ass. Takamaru is a gray area. On one hand, he hasn't had a revival yet, but on the other hand, we don't have any FDS rep and there doesn't seem to be many factors riding against. As for Wario/Overalls Wario, I've already made it clear as to why they shouldn't be separate.

..and I REALLY don't know why you insist that the Dog deserves to be in or why the Zapper even needs a character to represent it. One playable piece of Nintendo hardware is enough. I'm pretty sure they can find a more creative and sensible way to represent the Zapper.

Oh, and listen to what Flip said about Dixie. Diddy is already established, so gluing Dixie to his side has the potential to muck things up. She should stay separate.

And for the friggin' last time, using the roster screen size as a way to decide who should get in is also ridiculous. It has no bearing on anything. For all we know, they could change up the style of the selection screen at any moment.

---

While I'm at it, I'll try my hand at this:

1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser

No new Mario characters. End of story. Unless they either bring Doc back or add Toad, neither of which are likely.

5. Wario
6. Yoshi
7. DK
8. Diddy
9. Dixie

Dixie is the best DK character choice due to being cut from Brawl. Wario and Yoshi don't need any more characters.

10. Link
11. Zelda (possibly Shiek)
12. Ganondorf
13. Either Toon Link or a New version of Young Link
14. Toon Zelda (assuming Toon Link is still in)

Link, Zelda and Ganondorf are probably going to appear in some sort of new design that reflects whatever Zelda game is out by the time the next Smash Bros. title is released. Assuming the "Toon" styled Zelda games have been phased out by then we may get a new alternate Link as well. If the "Toon" thing hasn't been phased out, they may add Toon Zelda as well since she was cut from Brawl.

15. Samus (with Zero Suit Samus)
16. Pit
17. Ice Climbers
18. ROB
19. Kirby
20. Meta Knight
21. Dedede
22. Olimar
23. Fox
24. Falco
25. Wolf
26. Captain Falcon
27. Samurai Goroh

None of the above franchises need any more reps besides F-ZERO, which desperately needs Goroh. We don't need a fourth Star Fox character, there aren't any more important Kirby characters, and Ridely's already taken the boss role which probably does him better justice in the long run. Samus being the sole Metroid character reflects the series' whole theme of isolation (at least in the 2D titles, which we all know by now are better appreciated in Japan).

28. Pikachu
29. Pokemon Trainer
30. Jigglypuff
31. New Important Pokemon
32. Mewtwo?
33. Lucario?

Unless Lucario stays and/or Mewtwo gets brought back, they're probably going to add whatever new important Pokemon is around by the time the next SSB is out.

34. Marth
35. New Fire Emblem protagonist
36. Ness
37. Lucas

Face it. Ike was just a replacement for Roy, and both of them were the main characters of the most recent FE games at the time. They'll likely pull the same stunt here.

38. Mr. Game & Watch
39. Snake
40. Sonic
41. New Third Party Character

We're probably gonna get at least one third party character. Who it will be is what we can't tell. Everyone seems to be barracking for Mega Man though, so who knows?

42. Little Mac
43. Saki (or the kid from the new Sin & Punishment)
44. Starfy
45. New Old-School Character
46. New Obscure Character

Little Mac will likely get in because of the new Punch-Out. Saki or the maybe the kid from the new S&P title may get in. Stafy may get in because his newest game is actually getting a US release. We're definitely gonna get a new old-school character. Maybe it'll be Balloon Fighter or Mach Rider. Maybe it'll be Takamaru. I think the latter is more likely though.

We're obviously going to get an obscure, "what the fudge?" character, but none of us really have any way to tell who it will be. Part of me wants to believe that some of the characters that were Assists in Brawl will end up playable in the next Smash, but there's not much of a justification to assume that.

Finally, including Zero Suit Samus and Shiek, the total comes out to 48 characters. If you want to include the PKMN Trainer's Pokemon as three seperate characters, the total is 50. If you want to include PKMN Trainer himself as a character (like they did in Brawl), then it's 51. Numbers sell, though at the end of the day they really don't matter.

[TV Eye]

Mar 1, 2009 9:30:36 GMT -5 Arcadenik said:

I really don't think Nintendo would want to go through the hassle with legal mumbo-jumbo again just to include third-party characters.

Wait...but didn't Kojima ask to have Snake in?

[Manspeed]

That he did. At the time Melee was in production, even.

[TV Eye]

I can see Snake and Sonic being mainstays for the Smash series.

[Shrikeswind]

I'm not sure we should worry about that, though. Sonic and Snake aren't owned by Nintendo, so it still requires a bunch of legal talk to get them. I'd basically put third party talk in the freezer until we know it's safe to eat that bird.

[Johans Nidorino]

Mar 1, 2009 9:30:36 GMT -5 Arcadenik said:

#4 - Candidates for the Disk System Franchises category: Takamaru, Ridley, Dark Samus, Little Mac, Sukapon, Balloon Fighter

More like "Famicom & FDS". Also, you said in a paragraph below that you wouldn't add the Balloon Fighter and he's still there... Update your post and don't repeat yourself so often.

And Pokémon Ranger? That's the last thing the game needs of Pokémon. Leave that to songs, stickers and trophies for now.

Mar 1, 2009 11:41:12 GMT -5 Manspeed said:

You're kidding right? Nobody wants to see Baby Mario glued to Yoshi's back.

Wrong!

Rob, what do you think about K. Rool? Because choosing Dixie just because her name was in Brawl's code sounds as exciting as the very fact that she was going to be with Diddy. Also K. Rool is in the "challenge trophies" area along with Mewtwo, Plusle & Minun, Starfy, Paper Mario and others.

[Shrikeswind]

I would just like to take this opportunity to say that I do not support Paper Mario or Dr. Mario making an appearance as a seperate character (in the case of Dr. Mario, making an appearance AGAIN.)

My case against Paper Mario: Paper Mario is just Mario made of paper. I do support more references to Paper Mario than just a trophy, but not as a seperate character. Maybe as a stage cameo of some kind, like a Paper Mario stage that makes everything all papery. As I said, Paper Mario is just Mario made of paper.

My case against Dr. Mario: In the end, Dr. Mario was a filler choice in Melee and was cut in Brawl for a reason: He was just filler. Dr. Mario is just Mario in a lab-coat.

[Flip]

The can of worms is open; there is no way Sonic and Snake are leaving the franchise now. It can happen, sure, but I don't see it for SSB4. People enjoy them way too much. And, if anything, we're definitely seeing one or two more third party characters. Guaranteed.

As far as the giant roster Arcadenik made, some of those choices are just... no. I think the obvious ones that you picked, like Mac and Saki, are pretty much shoe-ins. Their franchises are getting updates/revivals and they are fostering a lot of popularity, much like was the case for Fire Emblem, DK, and Mother from Melee to Brawl. And look what happened? XD

That said, I think a lot of the other choices are trivial at best. Paper Mario, DH Dog, and Ninten? Get real. Those are one-shot characters, at best, and are not really "star" caliber. If they haven't included Ninten by this point I highly doubt they will in the next game. What is his appeal over a character like Ness or Lucas, who are more recognizable and recent? I don't understand this "parrothead" logic to things (sorry parrothead ). Just because a game was "popular in Japan" or has "nostalgic value to the demographic of 19-year old left-handed Luxembourgs with terminal butt cancer in the year 1994" makes it worthy of a playable spot in the character roster? I think we should have enough evidence by now to know that the roster selection is incredibly picky. Each character has to be strong enough to not only warrant inclusion but sell the game. Maybe it's just me, but if Smash 4 had a giant smiling Duck Hunt Dog on the cover standing next to a really peeved looking Balloon Fighter and a quirky 3D model of Diskun I might question where Nintendo's marbles have gone.

I'm sorry. I want a game like that too. BUT I am also being realistic. Of your roster, I would only say the following are probably likely: Little Mac, Takamaru, Saki, Dixie, K. Rool, Krystal, Isaac, Dark Samus, and Mewtwo. But even a few of these are stretches.

[Manspeed]

That's why I made the response I did.

Wrong!

The majority would hate it, and I can't think of any other good reason to do something like that.

Rob, what do you think about K. Rool? Because choosing Dixie just because her name was in Brawl's code sounds as exciting as the very fact that she was going to be with Diddy. Also K. Rool is in the "challenge trophies" area along with Mewtwo, Plusle & Minun, Starfy, Paper Mario and others.

K.Rool could be cool, but that depends on what they do with him. He'd be boring if he were just King K.Rool, and the idea of costume swapping that people seem to throw around seems too much like Shiek and Pokemon Trainer for my tastes.

I've always wanted to see Kaptain K.Rool appear as a boss, but I think of all of K.Rool's guises, that one would make the best playable character. If they had both him and Dixie, we may even get a Gangplank Galleon stage to complete the DKC2 menagerie.

The reason I picked Dixie for that reason is because it seems to point to her at least having a better shot than other characters. I was trying to be realistic.