Smash Bros. Rumble - A NinDB Production

[Shrikeswind]

Apr 4, 2009 19:18:25 GMT -5 ness13 said:

You should put Roy on the roster he was my 2nd best character in Melee.

Individual skill counts for nothing here. I'm looking for merit. What makes Roy such a major player in Nintendo history? Here's my example, Lyn. She's the first Lord to go international in a Fire Emblem game.

[seanking64]

...and was made an Assist Trophy, which means she's ruled out. Permanently.

Not that it matters, the next FE character doesn't actually exist yet anyway. If they hold to any kind of pattern, they'll use the star of the most recent game to Smash 4's actual release (i.e. a game that hasn't actually happened yet). Whether that'll be a new character or a replacement for Ike the way Ike replaced Roy is the only concern I have (I hope not, I've come to quite like Ike as a character, but...).

[somemannerof]

I wouldn't say completely ruled out: Little Mac, with his big comeback, seems to be a shoo-in for the next Smash. Somebody here theorized that another Punch-out boxer would simply take his place as assist trophy.

I vote Von Kaiser.

[Arcadenik]

Oh, yes, and look how she ended up. Remember, consoles > handhelds. Ike was the lord of the first international Fire Emblem console game. Most people wanted Lyn just because she's a girl, not because she's the first international lord, even though it was only on the GBA. Notice how some of the most popular characters who ended up as ATs are the main characters of GBA games? Ray Mk III, Isaac, Jill (just because she's a girl), Infantry & Tanks (even though people wanted Andy, Sami, or Max), Barbara (just because she's a girl), Tingle, and Starfy. Exceptions would be Pokemon Trainer, Zero Suit Samus, and Lucas but they are all iconic Nintendo characters anyway (maybe not Lucas but Sakurai is obviously a fan of the Mother series )

Notice how some of the ATs and Bosses in Brawl are some of the most popular secondary characters who aren't that important to Nintendo history like Samurai Goroh, Waluigi (people want him just so Luigi would have a rival and Wario would have a partner), Ridley, and Petey Piranha. I am sorry but it just seems to me that people want Samurai Goroh and Ridley for the sake of having F-Zero rep #2 and Metroid rep #2 - I remember when Samurai Goroh was revealed to be an AT, some fans decided to support Black Shadow as F-Zero rep #2, which tells me these people just want a F-Zero rep #2. I don't think Ridley is even the main villain of the Metroid series, a recurring secondary villain, yes, but there's no recurring main villain in the Metroid series except Mother Brain and Metroid Prime. Its kinda the same in Petey Piranha's case, he's a recurring secondary villain but he's not the recurring main villain like Bowser. Also, Samurai Goroh is not the recurring main villain, he's more like a recurring secondary villain. Who's even the recurring main villain of the F-Zero series? Black Shadow? Deathborn? Blood Falcon? Who is it? I don't know and I don't care.

Could this be what Sakurai meant when he said he wasn't interested in adding popular characters - it could be why we have ATs, so that the popular yet not iconic Nintendo characters can still get in? Maybe but its all my opinion.

I vote King Hippo as the new Punch-Out!! AT. He just seems to make more sense than Von Kaiser to me.

[seanking64]

I am sorry but it just seems to me that people want Samurai Goroh and Ridley for the sake of having F-Zero rep #2 and Metroid rep #2 - I remember when Samurai Goroh was revealed to be an AT, some fans decided to support Black Shadow as F-Zero rep #2, which tells me these people just want a F-Zero rep #2.

...yes. Exactly. That's the whole point. It's obvious that you disagree with the idea of expanding series in Smash, but I argue that that is the whole point of the series. You have a series that's been around since the first game and yet still only has a single character, and you object to it getting expanded for, what, gameplay reasons? So gameplay trumps franchise use, alright. But in that case, why use Nintendo characters in the first place? If these decisions are solely, solely based on what kind of gameplay style would work, then why use the middle man and not just design it from the ground up with original characters that fit the movesets they want?

You can and in fact I'm pretty sure have argued that it doesn't matter if a series only gets one character when it could absolutely get more, because the series is lucky enough to even have one in the first place... no. Screw that. Like it or not or whether they want to admit it or not, Smash has the burden of essentially defining the franchises it includes to virtually everyone, and advertising those games subconsciously or otherwise. It took this on whether it liked it or not the second it switched to using Nintendo characters, and especially when they started bringing up the concept of "hey guys let's see your favourite Nintendo characters beat the crap out of each other". (The irony and the rub of the whole thing being that Smash inevitably makes these characters people's favourites.) If it's not going to do an accurate job of it and shortchanging a series (I'm really only focusing on F-Zero here, but I feel it's the one hit hardest), then there's a problem. My crutch is, if you have a series that's been around from, say, the very first game, that has a massive cast to choose even just one newbie from, and you still show absolutely no intention of bringing a new one in, what is the point of even keeping that series around? You're clearly only doing it for the one character, and I find that disingenuous and disrespectful to the series in question (especially when you don't even make the character look or act like he does in the games...). I'd rather they just get rid of the whole thing, to save everyone's time and save it a little bit of dignity.

Also, a lot of you say that a lot of it comes down to what Sakurai thinks and what Sakurai likes, and that this is apparently an acceptable way of doing things... does no one else see a problem with that? We're having, again, the game that defines the entire Nintendo stock to the masses based on the whim of a single man's tastes? That's nuts. This is too important for that.

And for the record: Ridley might only be the final boss of one game, but he's also the boss to appear in more games than any other. Mother Brain and Metroid Prime/Dark Samus are only in three; he's in six, and he also has the factor of being Samus' explicit rival (killing her parents will do that for a guy). Not that he matters at this point, another Metroid character is pretty unlikely period at this point and frankly I count ZSS anyway and apparently Sakurai does too, or did. As for F-Zero, Black Shadow's the main villain. Period. Blood Falcon works for him, Deathborn is only in one game and in the anime he works for Shadow anyway. I get the impression from your posts that you're not too familiar with some of the series you're most vocally against, or perhaps don't even particularly like them. That's not a standpoint I'd be arguing from, personally.

[Shrikeswind]

Ike was also the most RECENT Lord.

Also, the Pokemon Trainer completely negates any argument that a) a fighter cannot start their Smash career as a helper and that b) replacements are not necessary when they do make the leap. I see no reason to believe that a character such as Lyn or Samurai Goroh could not make the leap with that in mind. If they do decide to replace Little Mac as an AT, my money's on Mr. Sandman, one of the only guys to appear in every Punch-Out game. And even then, that's only IF they decide to replace his AT. If Little Mac makes the jump, I doubt anyone will take his place.

[seanking64]

Yes, the Charizard argument. Find me the interview where it was said that Pokeball Pokemon were chosen because they felt they couldn't work as playable characters. In the meantime, here's the one that says as much for Assist Trophies. (I draw specific attention to the image that was apparently used to first suggest the AT concept - notice, for example, the Animal Crossing villager...) The whole point is that they're characters that they don't think can be playable, so unless they change their minds, no, they're not the shortlist for Smash 4 that everyone assumes them to be. Bosses don't have that hard proof, admittedly, but somehow I don't think they're going to take Ridley from being bigger than even Giga Bowser - in both of his most well-known forms! - to being the same size as normal Bowser -and he's the only boss that's even theoretically viable in the first place.

Besides, Lyn? You've got to remember, Smash 4 is probably about five or six years away, if not more. By the time it actually gets under way, she's going to have not been in a game for over a decade. Two of the major problems with making these rosters is that they don't take future games into account, and they're inevitably going to be hideously outdated by virtue of the fact that they're using incredibly recent characters that aren't even going to be a blip on the radar when Smash 4 comes around. For example, the only Metroid character that I think could've worked since Ridley isn't happening is Dark Samus, but after this year she's never appearing in a game ever again. The Prime series is over. She'll be old and irrelevant. This is what happened to Mewtwo, and it's what's going to happen to Lucario too when the next generation comes around. If I'm sucking all the fun out of making a theoretical game, I'm sorry, I'm just going off the discussion I see and addressing it the way I see is logical.

[Johans Nidorino]

Apr 4, 2009 22:58:14 GMT -5 Arcadenik said:

Who is it? I don't know and I don't care.

That was lame and it kinda makes one regret having read that long paragraph.

Apr 4, 2009 23:46:43 GMT -5 seanking64 said:

Yes, the Charizard argument. Find me the interview where it was said that Pokeball Pokemon were chosen because they felt they couldn't work as playable characters. In the meantime, here's the one that says as much for Assist Trophies. (I draw specific attention to the image that was apparently used to first suggest the AT concept - notice, for example, the Animal Crossing villager...) The whole point is that they're characters that they don't think can be playable, so unless they change their minds, no, they're not the shortlist for Smash 4 that everyone assumes them to be. Bosses don't have that hard proof, admittedly, but somehow I don't think they're going to take Ridley from being bigger than even Giga Bowser - in both of his most well-known forms! - to being the same size as normal Bowser -and he's the only boss that's even theoretically viable in the first place.

Besides, Lyn? You've got to remember, Smash 4 is probably about five or six years away, if not more. By the time it actually gets under way, she's going to have not been in a game for over a decade. Two of the major problems with making these rosters is that they don't take future games into account, and they're inevitably going to be hideously outdated by virtue of the fact that they're using incredibly recent characters that aren't even going to be a blip on the radar when Smash 4 comes around. For example, the only Metroid character that I think could've worked since Ridley isn't happening is Dark Samus, but after this year she's never appearing in a game ever again. The Prime series is over. She'll be old and irrelevant. This is what happened to Mewtwo, and it's what's going to happen to Lucario too when the next generation comes around. If I'm sucking all the fun out of making a theoretical game, I'm sorry, I'm just going off the discussion I see and addressing it the way I see is logical.

I agree that being an Assist Trophy or boss doesn't necessarily mean a character is an immediate candidate for a playable character in a sequel. However, it may seem like we're thinking otherwise in things like our nominations and polls, because some of those characters are already popular, are main characters in their games, or have fans among us regardless of Brawl (like Starfy, Tingle and Isaac).

Lucario being replaced seems logical and very possible, but then we're only looking at patterns in previous Smash games (actually only Brawl) and not at the games this is based on. The truth is that we don't know those future Pokémon and whether they will be worthy of replacing Lucario or instead being added with Lucario remaining. I'm afraid of saying Lucario is in as much as of saying Lucario is out.

[Manspeed]

I've already mentioned that characters like Ike and Lucario will likely be replaced by more recent FE and Pokemon characters in a future Smash title. Does anyone pay attention?

[BeamClaws]

what? Ike being the first international Lord?

Since when did anything represented in the west matter to the creators of BrawL?

[somemannerof]

Isn't that technically why ROB was included? Because it was the peripheral that helped open the North American market again?

[Koopaul]

Sean, you act like things can't change. I simply can't believe that because someone is an AT now that they can't be a character later. Is there a rule or something? That because your an Assist in one game six years ago that you STILL have to be one?

Sean, you believed a lot of things, you were CERTAIN that Diddy Kong was not going to be playable and that the game was going to be a bongo fest. But you were wrong.

Long ago if someone said they wanted Sonic in SSB3 I would have laugh in their faces, telling them it was impossible.

We are never certain what will happen.

[seanking64]

Sean, you believed a lot of things, you were CERTAIN that Diddy Kong was not going to be playable and that the game was going to be a bongo fest. But you were wrong.

You bring that up like it's supposed to be some humbling thing, but I still consider Diddy getting in to be a drat miracle, whatever the usage of any other element of the franchise aside. I'm also not so dumb as to now pronounce, oh hey, now we're definitely gonna get another DK character in the next game too! Is it more likely? Sure, but it took us three games to get here, and other series are taking even longer.

"Is there a rule"? There's a statement straight out of Sakurai's mouth, not to mention the blurb right back when ATs were first announced that it was going to use people who "couldn't quite make it" as playable characters, whatever that means. Whether it changes or not depends entirely on whether Sakurai changes his mind on that, and I don't think new games are going to bump any of those up. Little Mac's got a new game coming! Great, that game's going to be irrelevant in five years and it doesn't change the fact that they can't think up with a moveset for him regardless. Samurai Goroh's been in every single game Captain Falcon's been, and that didn't help him any. Frankly, I don't think the given "popularity" or marketability of a series matters at all to Smash, and I would never use it as a barometer for who gets what.

It's just... I go around the internet and I see all these people just assuming that the Assist Trophies are going to be the first up for when Smash 4 has to build a roster, and to my eyes I'm just seeing all these people setting themselves up for a fall. You'll have people going, "Oh, I wish my favourite character had been a boss or assist trophy in Brawl", and I'm like, no! What are you thinking? Why do you want your favourite character reduced to a glorified Pokemon, permanently? So you can get them in the game right now, in a pathetically small format that you'll see once before you never play SSE again and turn the items off? But if you don't have them ATed, and can have some drat patience, they'll have the chance of actually becoming playable, which is what matters.

So yeah, could it change? Sure, but Brawl has tempered my feelings about this series a lot, and I am being conservative as hell in regards to anything involving it. Because yeah, Brawl got Diddy, and I'm ecstatic about that since that's what I wanted the most... but it also threw F-Zero through a ringer and basically said "Hey we're probably never adding another character, among other things", for a myriad of reasons that I will not go into here for the time being. I can't think large anymore like I did with all the rest in the years between Melee and Brawl, because I saw how that backfired, and I'm not doing it again.

[Arcadenik]

Johans, I suppose that sentence might come out sounding harsh and indifferent. I'm sorry about that but I still don't see the point of having a second playable F-Zero character when Captain Falcon is doing a fine job by himself. I don't think we should just add in a second F-Zero character for the sake of having two F-Zero characters. What purpose would that serve besides fan service for the F-Zero fans? Don't anyone remember what Sakurai said about ATs? Only the most dedicated fans would recognize them. Well, lets look at who are the ATs in Brawl... Isaac, Jill, Little Mac, Lyn, Ray Mk III, Saki Amamiya, Samurai Goroh, Starfy, Tingle, Waluigi... all of them were some of the most popular choices for Brawl. But who recognizes them more? The most dedicated fans or the mainstream audience?

Now, since I'm a member here, I'm one of the dedicated fans of Nintendo, too. But whenever I'm offline, I see what the mainstream audience see in gaming magazines and in retail stores. Nintendo wants to attract the mainstream audience into buying their products because that's business, of course.

Johans, do you remember that around 2 years ago, you posted this Pokemon calendar with Pikachu, Plusle & Minun, Mewtwo, and Lucario on the cover, and you said those Pokemon were most likely to appear in SSB3? You were right because Sakurai was going to add Plusle & Minun and Mewtwo in Brawl even though you didn't expect Pokemon Trainer. I haven't seen Nintendo doing anything like that with any of F-Zero characters except Captain Falcon.

Nintendo Monopoly comes to mind where the only F-Zero reference on the board was Captain Falcon's car as an ultility. Now, in my opinion, the Nintendo Monopoly pretty much reflects what Nintendo wants to showcase, advertise, and promote - Star Fox, Kirby, Metroid, Donkey Kong, Zelda, and Mario (this includes Wario and Yoshi). I think all three SSB games reflect this plus any other franchises (Mother, F-Zero, Fire Emblem, etc.) are just bonus extras for the most dedicated fans to enjoy. Brawl's box art even reflects this by having Mario, Zelda, Kirby, Metroid, Star Fox, and Pokemon characters grace the front cover that it doesn't even matter if there is only one character the most dedicated fans would recognize (Pit).

Now, notice how these franchises only have the main characters playable, even with just two characters? Ness and Lucas, Captain Falcon, Marth and Ike... no secondary characters from these franchises are playable so Jeff and Samurai Goroh are ATs. In Lyn's case, I suspect it has a lot to do with the Brawl poll where Ike had four votes while Lyn was nowhere on the list.

I really don't think Samurai Goroh would be playable because he's a secondary character in a franchise that Nintendo don't market as much as they do with Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, Donkey Kong, Kirby, and even Metroid (at least it got Zero Suit Samus). Sean, I think it is a shame that you would rather have no F-Zero characters in the game at all than to have at least one F-Zero character just because you wanted to have two F-Zero characters. It is almost akin to saying "I don't want Sakurai to make SSB4 because I don't like how he did the Brawl roster."

[seanking64]

I'd rather have no F-Zero characters than only have one who doesn't look a thing like he does in the actual games in Brawl, doesn't act or sound a thing like he does in the actual games, and is pretty much solely in because he says funny things and makes people laugh and make stupid Youtube videos. Oh look, his Up B looks like he's raping people! YESH! Ugh. The worst thing is that these people don't bother checking out the actual F-Zero series either, if they even know what series he's even from. So no, he's not doing a good job of representing the series on his own, in fact he's doing a horrible job of it, and I say this as someone who owns and has played through every single North American released F-Zero game and is going to get Climax sooner or later. He's a "macho, tough guy" jokester who's there solely for laughs, and I find that incredibly disrespectful to what virtually everyone who's played it agreed is one of Nintendo's best series. And since I don't think we're likely to get another F-Zero game at this point anyway, and that I don't think we'll get another character, I want them to remove Falcon and everything to do with the series from Smash to let it die with some dignity. Hey, it clears out the roster for characters and franchises that clearly people will find more interesting, and Ganondorf won't be a clone anymore. Will it happen? Of course not, they'll never give up Captain Walking Meme Generator. But it vexes me considerably.

And again, I repeat myself: you talk about Smash using characters that are popular with people, ignoring that Smash makes them popular. You think many people were rallying for R.O.B.? How about Lucas, who the American mainstream obviously wouldn't even know exists, just the Mother fanbase and Japan? (I really didn't want to try bringing this up, but why does Mother get to have a second character, with only three games to its name, none of which are able to be released outside of Japan anymore, when F-Zero is doomed to have only one, reduced to being a secret character at that, when it has over six and an anime to boot? If you suggest again that it's simply Sakurai's whim, then I say again why don't you see a problem with that?) How many fans do the Fire Emblem characters have, and how many of them actually got into the series as a result? (Hint, not me, you can thank Dash for making me a FE fan as of two days ago.) I could go on and on and spout just every seemingly random choice for a character that has popped into this series, and then point at how those characters have since become mainstays in the public gaming consciousness, whether they've gotten a new game since or not.