Smash Bros. Rumble - A NinDB Production

[Arcadenik]

I propose Meowth's inclusion as a SSB4 newcomer because "I likes this character, PLEASE!"

Warning: This is a long read but I hope it will help you understand my reasonings for adding Meowth as a SSB4 newcomer.

Pikachu and Jigglypuff were added to SSB64 because Pikachu was the mascot of the franchise, and its even the star of the Pokemon anime (just like Meowth is and still is). Jigglypuff was an odd choice but it was apparently very popular in Japan over 10 years ago.

I like to base most of my roster choices on the Melee/Brawl polls, and now I take the forbidden seven into consideration to help me understand why Sakurai chooses the characters. Lets start with the Melee poll.

#1 - Mewtwo (35)
#2 - Mew (24)
#3 - Red (18)
#4 - Misc. Pokemon (12)
#5 - Lugia (11)
#6 - Meowth (8)
#7 - Raichu (7)
#8 - Marill (5)
#8 - Bulbasaur (5)
#8 - Togepi (5)

Mewtwo was the top pick so it was added in Melee. It was the series' first "final boss" in Red/Blue/Yellow and also the star of the first Pokemon movie. Pichu was added because it was one of the notable mascots of Gold/Silver/Crystal plus it made sense for it to be a clone of Pikachu.

Sakurai did not add Mew because it was notable for being a super-rare Pokemon that is seen once in a while and its Pokeball appearance fits its mysterious personality very well.

Sakurai added Red in Brawl, the next logical choice, because it was the original Pokemon Trainer in Red/Blue/Yellow and came back in their remakes FireRed/LeafGreen. Red brought Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard with him, I think was largely due to the Kanto episodes of the Pokemon anime. Ash Ketchum (Red) had Squirtle, Bulbasaur, and Charmander but only Charmander evolved into Charizard. Sakurai probably wanted all three starters to each represent an evolution stage, so Sakurai evolved Bulbasaur into Ivysaur for that.

Sakurai was going to bring back Pichu in Brawl as Plusle & Minun, a logical way to improve Pichu from Melee, I suppose. Plusle & Minun were a pair of notable mascots of Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald.

Sakurai was going to bring back Mewtwo, probably due to its return as a "final boss" in FireRed/LeafGreen and its appearance in Melee. But he didn't, why? I suspect it was because of Lucario. Lucario was a notable mascot of Diamond/Pearl, even becoming the star in a Pokemon movie like Mewtwo did and Lucario was probably planned to be an improved Mewtwo. Out with the old, in with the new, I guess, that Lucario would represent the latest generation.

Lugia is the next choice after Red but its simply too big that scaling it down would be totally out of character. Lugia is notable for its legendary status, as portrayed in the games and movies that its perfect as a Pokeball Pokemon. So, we move down the poll to Meowth. Meowth is arguably the most logical next choice since it is one of the few iconic Pokemon of the original 151 and its one of the stars of the anime alongside Pikachu and Pokemon Trainer.

The one thing Meowth has in common with the forbidden seven: All-Star Mode. Meowth was an obtainable trophy in Melee by clearing All-Star with all characters. Lets look at how Plusle & Minun, Pichu, and Mewtwo trophies are obtained in Brawl. You get Plusle & Minun by getting all Final Smash trophies and you get a character's Final Smash trophy by clearing All-Star with that character. You get Pichu by clearing All-Star without using a continue. You get Mewtwo by clearing All-Star on Intense. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not, but one might wonder why Meowth didn't appear in Melee.

Meowth appeared in a Pokeball in SSB64 and did not return in Melee. Sakurai seemed to acknowledge Meowth's popularity with the fans when Meowth didn't show up in Melee that he brought Meowth back in Brawl. Sakurai recognizes that Meowth is considered a major Pokemon and I hope it helps Meowth become the second Pokemon (after Charizard) to advance from Pokeball status to Playable status.

I think the only other Pokemon that might hurt Meowth's chance at playability are Mewtwo and Lucario. If Sakurai still wants to include Mewtwo or Lucario, then Meowth would be out again and a new movie Pokemon from the 5th gen would take up the 5th Pokemon slot. If Sakurai decides not to bring back Mewtwo nor Lucario, then Meowth might stand a good chance and the 5th gen Pokemon would replace Lucario.

Haven't anyone noticed the pattern yet? There are always two Pokemon newcomers in each SSB game. Pikachu and Jigglypuff in SSB64. Mewtwo and Pichu in Melee. Pokemon Trainer and Lucario in Brawl. Maybe there's a possibility that Meowth and a 5th gen Pokemon would be the next two Pokemon newcomers for SSB4.

If Meowth is added, it has a lot to offer in SSB4, namely Meowth's Party. Meowth's Melee trophy was clearly based on that Gamecube demo (or cancelled game) and it would be an ironic reference to have a whole stage based on Meowth's Party. Meowth could even play the guitar as a taunt and as a victory pose.

Meowth is a Scratch Cat Pokemon so it makes sense for it to be a speedy lightweight combatant with lightning quick scratches. Meowth's trademark move is Pay Day so it would be fitting for Meowth to use Pay Day for most of its special moves.

B - Pay Day, the actual Pay Day move from the Pokemon games where Meowth throws one coin

Side B - Fury Swipes, Meowth scratches in combos like Marth's Dancing Blade

Up B - Faint Attack, works like Pikachu's Quick Attack only Meowth disappears and scratches along the way

Down B - Payback, the Pay Day Meowth used in SSB64, Meowth shoots coins all around as a counterattack that doubles the inflicted damage

Final Smash - Super Pay Day, the Pay Day Meowth used in Brawl, Meowth throws many coins in a rapid-fire speed

Meowth for SSB4!

[Koopaul]

Not to change the subject but why are they called the "forbidden seven" instead of the "lost seven" ?

[The Qu]

As long as Meowth jams on his guitar for one of his victory poses, I'm down with the idea.

[Da Robot]

@ Arcadenik, that's some pretty in depth evaluation of Meowth/character exclusions.

Actually according to SmashWiki, Meowth was considered to appear playable in the original game.

"Bowser, Peach, Pit, Mewtwo, Meowth and King Dedede were originally going to be playable or planned in this game but were removed due to time constraints (and in Dedede's case, Sakurai was worried about over-representing his own series). Sukapon, from Joy Mech Fight, was also considered at some point. However, King Dedede was a background character in Dream Land in this game and Melee as well as a playable character in Brawl. Bowser and Peach were playable in Melee and Brawl, and Mewtwo was also playable in Melee. Pit was the closest to being in the game but was replaced by Jigglypuff because of the popularity of the series (Pit was however playable in Brawl). "

[Arcadenik]

@ Da Robot

I really would love to see sources about Meowth being planned to be in SSB64 along with the others, you know how it is with the wikis - anyone can edit them. There are no sources cited anywhere on that page.

Maybe there were some truth in the whole "Meowth was planned to be playable in SSB64" because everyone else except Sukapon eventually became playable in Melee and/or Brawl. Its entirely possible that Meowth was planned to be in Melee but didn't make it and got a special trophy instead. That's what happened to Plusle & Minun and Mewtwo in Brawl.

@ Koopaul

No idea why they are called "forbidden seven" instead of "lost seven".

[Johans Nidorino]

I guess it's because people wanted them very much in the beginning. So the characters they want were "forbidden" to them.

The importance of Meowth is very clear. Pokémon come and go but Meowth is always there within the flagship Pokémon species. A "thief Meowth" as a playable character is an idea that I've liked from the fans.

But since this is Super Smash Bros. and not a whole new fighting crossover games, I'm really not sure they'll ever promote Meowth to a playable character. It should have happened in the first game perhaps. You mention that Charizard was promoted as a playable character, but I think it could be because of the Pokémon Trainer (and the appearance of Red in that poll if you will) and the need for him to command well-known starter Pokémon. Hence no Blastoise and Venusaur being Poké Ball Pokémon again.

Meowth's Party doesn't represent very well the Pokémon games; forget that thing unless it's brought up again from now until the announcement of the next Smash. For collage stages, I bet they'd make up new ones like the Poké Floats. The guitar could appear as an "in-joke" taunt, and only because of Masahiro Sakurai and his team making the game; they were the ones who came up with so random a trophy in Melee.

[kirbychu]

The Party Meowth trophy wasn't that random. He may be important in the anime and merchandise, but Meowth's Party is really the only time Meowth ever had any kind of spotlight as far as games are concerned. Well, apart from playing the rival in Pokémon Dash.

[Johans Nidorino]

Feb 8, 2009 16:33:04 GMT -5 kirbychu said:

The Party Meowth trophy wasn't that random. He may be important in the anime and merchandise, but Meowth's Party is really the only time Meowth ever had any kind of spotlight as far as games are concerned. Well, apart from playing the rival in Pokémon Dash.

Don't you think those two things and more are linked to his fame in the anime anyway?

I called it "random" because Meowth's Party wasn't even in a real game at that point, and I don't think a majority of minds would have thought out of the box and create a trophy and its entry based on that instead of describing Meowth's species (though it sounds kind of like the outfit of Misty in her trophy). Maybe "customized" would be a better word.

[Shrikeswind]

Feb 8, 2009 0:35:21 GMT -5 Arcadenik said:

If Meowth is added, it has a lot to offer in SSB4, namely Meowth's Party. Meowth's Melee trophy was clearly based on that Gamecube demo (or cancelled game) and it would be an ironic reference to have a whole stage based on Meowth's Party. Meowth could even play the guitar as a taunt and as a victory pose.

Meowth is a Scratch Cat Pokemon so it makes sense for it to be a speedy lightweight combatant with lightning quick scratches. Meowth's trademark move is Pay Day so it would be fitting for Meowth to use Pay Day for most of its special moves.

B - Pay Day, the actual Pay Day move from the Pokemon games where Meowth throws one coin

Side B - Fury Swipes, Meowth scratches in combos like Marth's Dancing Blade

Up B - Faint Attack, works like Pikachu's Quick Attack only Meowth disappears and scratches along the way

Down B - Payback, the Pay Day Meowth used in SSB64, Meowth shoots coins all around as a counterattack that doubles the inflicted damage

Final Smash - Super Pay Day, the Pay Day Meowth used in Brawl, Meowth throws many coins in a rapid-fire speed

Meowth for SSB4!

You had me until here, which is pretty good. I find that the excess in Pay Day to be kinda annoying, but I do like how the amount of stuff you did. I have one on my website that I came up with for the most part that didn't feature Meowth's Party. What I don't like about the Meowth's Party rep is that Meowth's Party was cancelled. Here's the old moveset, by the way.

Up-B :: Night Slash
Meowth pounces upwards, claws extended, and finishes with a vicious downwards slash.
B :: Faint Attack
Meowth ducks back, then whips out with a stunning but weak slash.
Side-B :: Thief
Meowth dashes forwards, tearing at foes to get at their items.
Down-B :: Fury Swipes
Meowth slashes savagely around in a frantic rage.
Final :: Pay Day
Meowth summons a whirlwind of coins that drags enemies in.
Taunt :: Meowth turns to the camera, stands on one leg, and says "Meowth!"
Entrance :: Meowth comes out of a Poké Ball.

Looking back, I don't really like that moveset. Faint Attack bugs me, while Fury Swipes and Pay Day seem kinda wrong. I kinda prefer this new moveset.

Up-B :: Night Slash
Meowth pounces upwards, claws extended, and finishes with a vicious downwards slash.
B :: Pay Day
Meowth throws a barrage of coins for as long as the button is held. (It'd be like the Brawl rendition of the move.
Side-B :: Thief
Meowth dashes forwards, tearing at foes to get at their items.
Down-B :: Faint Attack
Meowth emits a harsh screech to stun nearby foes, then whips out with a quick slash. To make things interesting, the screech has a slightly longer range than the slash.
Final :: Fury Swipes
Meowth pounces on a nearby opponent. By repeatedly tapping buttons, he'll either scratch (A) or bite (B).
Up Taunt :: Meowth scratches the side of his head with a contented meow.
Side Taunt :: Meowth lowers his paws with a hiss, tail twitching.
Down Taunt :: Meowth turns to the camera, stands on one leg, and mockingly says "Meowth!"
Entrance :: Meowth comes out of a Poké Ball.

That's basically how I picture Meowth. I'm with you on that, though.

The way I see it, SSB4 can go one of three ways, either replace Lucario with a Pokémon dropped from Melee (meaning Mewtwo, keep Lucario, or replace him with a new Pokémon. If they go for five Pokémon reps, I'd take Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Meowth, either Mewtwo, Lucario, or a new serious Pokémon, and the Trainer.

[kirbychu]

Feb 8, 2009 18:51:49 GMT -5 Shrikeswind said:

What I don't like about the Meowth's Party rep is that Meowth's Party was cancelled.

Meowth's Party wasn't cancelled... it was never a game in the first place. Just a tech demo. But it does still live on as part of Pokémon Channel.

[Arcadenik]

Meowth's Party could represent the whole Pokemon franchise as a collage stage. Many Pokemon showed up as audience members in the demo. How about instead of sticking with just the 1st gen Pokemon, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gen Pokemon are included as audience members, too? It would be cool for some Pokemon to jump onto the concert stage and attack everyone just like the Pokemon in SSB64's Saffron City.

If Meowth's trophy were so random in Melee, why have the Meowth from Meowth's Party specifically instead of a regular Meowth from Red/Blue? Though Meowth's trophy in Brawl was clearly based on the regular Pokemon games.

I want to bring attention to Meowth's trophy description in Brawl:

"A Scratch Cat Pokemon. Its one of the most famous Pokemon and very fond of things that sparkle -- the gold medallion on its head could be an indicator of this infatuation. There are many Pokemon that resemble cats, but Meowth is the only one that can use Pay Day to receive coins at the end of battle. It evolves into Persian."

I found it interesting that Meowth's trophy is the only Pokemon trophy in Brawl that says "(Pokemon's name) is one of the most famous Pokemon..."

Hmm... why would Meowth be the only Pokemon with a description like that? Maybe I'm reading too much into it but it seems to me that Sakurai really does acknowledge Meowth's popularity. That must count for something.

[Johans Nidorino]

Feb 8, 2009 20:37:20 GMT -5 Arcadenik said:

If Meowth's trophy were so random in Melee, why have the Meowth from Meowth's Party specifically instead of a regular Meowth from Red/Blue? Though Meowth's trophy in Brawl was clearly based on the regular Pokemon games.

That's what I mean, why? None of us knows for sure, but I don't think that dictates that's the way Meowth should always be depicted . Your idea of him wearing accessories of the criminal organizations is better because those come from the main Pokémon games.

You're reading well enough into the text about Meowth; Sakurai definitely acknowledges him as a special Pokémon.

I'd be all for a playable Meowth, but the Pokémon that are already in the series and the fact that Meowth wasn't a playable character since the beginning doesn't sound encouraging enough to add it unless you drop one of the others like you implied when mentioning Mewtwo and Lucario (you saying that makes this easier to discuss). Many people here want Mewtwo back and I'd rather continue with a Poké Ball Meowth if that means Mewtwo is coming back or another future cool Pokémon is added. In short, I'm platonic about Meowth.

Something should be done about those coins whether he's playable or summonable. Remember when you earn money at the end of a battle in Pokémon?

[Arcadenik]

Why not have those coins be used as throwing items? You know, like Diddy Kong's bananas?

And that's exactly my point, like I said in my proposal, the only Pokemon that would hurt Meowth's chance at playability are Mewtwo and Lucario. And the reasons you just stated is basically what I fear would come to pass. I mean, nobody wants to see their favorite characters removed/replaced with newer characters.

The Pokemon roster, if it gets 5 reps in SSB4, could go like this:

Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pokemon Trainer, Mewtwo, and Lucario

OR

Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pokemon Trainer, Mewtwo OR Lucario, and 5th Gen Pokemon

OR

Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pokemon Trainer, Meowth, and Mewtwo OR Lucario OR 5th Gen Pokemon

[Shrikeswind]

I would honestly bet on option three, Pikachu + Jigglypuff + Trainer + Meowth + bad-ass of Sakurai's choice.

By the way, who else has noticed that both in Melee and in Brawl, the majority of playable Pokemon started first gen? It's particularly noticeable in Brawl with the Trainer, but in Melee you had Pikachu, Jigglypuff, and Mewtwo, and for Brawl you have Ivysaur, Charizard, Squirtle, Pikachu, and Jigglypuff. Also in both the only non-Kanto character was from the most recent game. Now, I'm not implying Sakurai's doing this on purpose, but if he is, and if he caps SSB4 rep at 5, we'll probably lose Lucario and not get Mewtwo back, or we'll probably get Mewtwo back, lose Lucario, and not get Meowth again.

[Arcadenik]

Wouldn't it be great if SSB4 had all playable Pokemon be from the original 151? Its, after all, the most popular generation and still is after 10 years.

Pokemon Trainer, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Meowth, and Mewtwo for SSB4!

Its perfect. We have all 3 top logical choices from the Melee polls in SSB4. And Pokemon/Smash fans get Mewtwo back.

But I don't think the Pokemon Company would let Sakurai do that. The company would probably tell Sakurai to add a 5th gen Pokemon to advertise the 5th gen games like Pichu with Gold/Silver, Plusle & Minun with Ruby/Sapphire and Lucario with Diamond/Pearl.

So we are almost guaranteed a 5th gen Pokemon in SSB4, most likely the star of a 5th gen movie just like Mewtwo and Lucario.

And hence my biggest concern over Mewtwo and Lucario threatening Meowth's chance at playability. Fans will want Lucario to come back and we already know the fans are very vocal about Mewtwo returning in SSB4. Not surprisingly, fans are not very vocal about Pichu, go figure!