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Post by Fryguy64 on Apr 26, 2009 15:00:39 GMT -5
Its not that they're lazy, they just don't care. Miyamoto has stressed how much he hates story and character development.  From what I can gather, he's only against character development in the Mario series. Having seen what happens to jolly old-school platformers when you inject them with "story" and "character development" (of the Saturday Morning cartoon variety) you end up with bollocks like Sonic X and emo Mega Man... Mario doesn't have a troubled past. All he wants is a kiss from the Princess. Bowser isn't, like, totally misunderstood... he's just a big mean turtle who wants to take over the world because it's what he does. I don't want to know the ambitions of the characters. It's one of the reasons Count Bleck and his croneys were so difficult for me to swallow. Mario is a simple character, a blank slate that means his ambition is our ambition. The same is more obviously true of Link. All of the Mario characters are simple, and all "development" is usually handled in such a silly, humorous way. |
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Post by nocturnal YL on Apr 26, 2009 16:30:11 GMT -5
Doesn't quite apply to the RPG ones, I'd say. Especially Paper Mario TTYD and Super Paper Mario. But then, that's just what happens when you leave our trusty Mario to you-know-who. They're famous for silly (I think) story stuff that "looks" serious among with other things like variables set without much consideration.
Link does show some character development. He doesn't speak, but the stories and interactions around all these Links make you feel what he thinks.
Character development can be, or can be not, a good thing, depending on the situation. On one hand a character with set characteristic lets the player know better what the character is doing and how this player is interacting with the game; on the other hand a character without much characteristic makes the player feel more freely to do whatever this player wants.
I've just got Metroid Prime 3 for not long. I didn't quite want to interact with those federation staff after a few of them said "I'm sory but I can't be interrupted right now". It's like they don't want to speak and me (as Samus) doing so would be kind of "destroying" my image.
I probably wouldn't have done so if it's a Mario game. For the record, I enjoyed to see Mario stomping on whoever he talks to. Moreso in Sunshine because those NPCs get mad.
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Post by Manspeed on Apr 26, 2009 18:20:26 GMT -5
I find that the Mario characters don't really need development because they're already fairly understandable. I mean how can you say Mario has no personality when he's practically brimming with it?
He's headstrong, he has a sense of humor, he likes pasta, he's really attracted to Peach, he fights for the side of good, he's a leader figure, he loves adventure, he can deal some serious damage if you piss him off enough, he's well mannered, he knows how to treat a lady properly, he's hard working, and....uh....that's all I can think of for now.
Still, you get my point, right? You don't need waxing philosophic or pages of dialog or brooding about your pasts to make a good character. Maybe this comes down to personal viewpoint, but I see Mario as a perfectly fine character in his own right.
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Post by Boo Destroyer on Apr 26, 2009 21:30:47 GMT -5
I think you misunderstood. All I'm saying is that Peach, Daisy, and Waluigi (and others) do something more interesting in a Mario adventure instead of dicking around in spin-offs. In other words, they need to not be the empty shells that they are now.
Now I guess it's my turn for this:
While I do have my favorite third party franchises (Banjo-Kazooie, Conker, Mega Man, among others), my favoring for Nintendo the most of all game companies is not without reason. Nintendo actually strives for variety in their games and for being different with what they have to offer (not to mention simplicity, as stated just now).
Now, third parties...just don't roll on me as effectively. They seem to regurgitate the same kind of stuff way too much: World War 3/4/5, knights slaying dragons, samurai nonsense (these games may mostly be from Japan, but...), and other such (mostly anime-type) crap that.......just tries too hard. Also getting hell-bent on cliches like observing your past (omg flashbax). Like I said, I do have some favorite third-party series (I like Rare's Banjo and Conker a bit more than Nintendo, actually), but when you get a whole lot of the said kinds of games from them like all the time, then it gets much harder to have mercy for them.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Apr 26, 2009 22:11:06 GMT -5
Restaurants. Advertise more than your beef products. People are just as interested in chicken, fish, pork and veggies as they are in beef. In fact, these days, they might even be MORE interested in your chicken/fish/pork/veggie menu than they are in the beef because you nimrods decided that all beef must be the biggest heart-attack you can make and WE CAUGHT ON. This ESPECIALLY applies to Taco Bell. Do you know how wierd it feels going into a Taco Bell having to explicitly say "I want chicken, though, not beef"? It's ANNOYING. If I don't want beef, I don't have to. Start making more than one taco. Chicken, fish*, vegetarian, and pork tacos would be a customer magnet, because you'd be appealing to more than one market. I myself do not eat beef. Why do I have to have an exception made every time I order? Rather than all these newer, more repulsive ways to make the same beef taco, why not create a more diverse menu? Seeing the same meal built different isn't diversifying. Yeah it LOOKS new, but it's going to taste the EXACT FRIGGIN' SAME as everything else you make. *  |
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Post by Koopaul on Apr 26, 2009 22:33:49 GMT -5
Adding a little more of a story to a character doesn't always ruin them. (although I'm completely against Mario having one)
Rosalina is a good example of a Mario character with a background story. Even though she had one, she was not an emo Mary Sue. It was handled with a light touch, sweet and simple. Like a Disney fairytale. Yes I want Mario games to be more like Disney fairytales. Colorful, humorous, sweet, sad, and a lot of heart.
I liked the direction Mario Sunshine was going, which features a mysterious figure, a simple plot twist halfway, and voice acting that didn't get in the way nor was annoying.
But then Galaxy came out and what did we get? Bowser kidnaps Peach... AGAIN. Sure he did that in Sunshine, but Sunshine had more. Mario was thrown in jail, a shadow imposter appears, etc. It was new. Very simple, but new.
Also Sunshine showed something about Mario that was not previously shown: feelings. Mario was expressive in that game he was sad when FLUDD looked dead, Bowser showed that he cared about his son, and Peach showed us that she really IS that stupid.
Yep nothing big, but I liked it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2009 22:56:14 GMT -5
Mario was expressive in that game he was sad when FLUDD looked dead I'm sorry, but that was more hilarious and campy than deep. XD If Fludd had contributed to the story rather than acting as a platforming device (which is to say that Mario games function better without them, and SMS was no exception because it really just boiled down to "Bowser kidnaps Peach"), then maybe it'd be worth frowning over...but if you write the word "emotion" on a railroad spike and jab a dude in the gut with it, it's still a railroad spike that you've just jabbed a dude in the gut with. It's forced, invasive, and you're bleeding both internally and externally. And you've probably suffered a few broken ribs, and definitely a handful of ruptured organs. |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Apr 26, 2009 23:02:27 GMT -5
And possibly tetanus, depending on how rusty the spike was.
Also, use of the word "Disney" worries me.
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Post by Koopaul on Apr 26, 2009 23:58:01 GMT -5
Hey Disney used to be great. No, Disney used to be the best!
Also perhaps that one scene with Mario and FLUDD was forced, but it shows that Mario characters can be sad without turning into emo pussies.
So that rusty spike is more like a goofy name tag.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Apr 27, 2009 0:43:02 GMT -5
Hey Disney used to be great. No, Disney used to be the best! Sure, Disney's historically been good, but they've recently turned into just an extra serving of vanilla. The Hannah Montana / Suite Life / HSM bull-crap wasted them, and that's why the use of the word "Disney" in the classic sense has lost its meaning to me. I do understand the image you're trying to convey, don't get me wrong, I just feel using Disney as a parallel with the Disney of today to be retroactive. You understand where I'm coming from? |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Apr 27, 2009 1:01:43 GMT -5
Actually, Disney probably started this whole "turning simple characters into something deeper with backstory" back in the 80's. Pretty much all the major animation studios followed them.
Remember when Donald Duck was just a crazy-ass duck who flew off the handle at the slightest provocation? He was awesome, but now we are expected to feel his pain. Remember when Tom and Jerry were silent and violent because they were cat and mouse? And then they start talking and being friends because that's a better lesson. Remember when Bugs Bunny used to just piss off Elmer/Yosemite/whoever because he was an ass? Brilliant cartoons... but the more emotions and backstory they give him, the more he feels like an empty corporate shell. Then Sonic the Hedgehog... who thinks he's uber-cool now all he does is sit around whining all day (admittedly not as much as his support cast)?
The RPGs actually do a very good job of not injecting Mario with much personality. He's become more expressive (as has Link), but that isn't the same thing as personality. If Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga taught us anything, it's that expressive is funny. Old Donald Duck and Bugs Bunny were expressive. Old Sonic the Hedgehog games were packed with expressive.
But Mario's in a very enviable position... he's a corporate mascot that doesn't feel like a corporate mascot. And I think it's because he's not abused - he doesn't try and shove life-lessons down our throats. He doesn't claim to be a role model. He's not doing the things he does for any real reason, other than that's just who he is. And so long as Nintendo keeps him that way... then he will remain a unique mascot and a unique character.
Besides, when Nintendo does pump personality into a character... you end up with Wario or Tingle. Grotesque, unwashed, almost monster-like, and always horribly unique. Nintendo has this character thing down to an art. Others would do well to learn from them.
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Post by nocturnal YL on Apr 27, 2009 1:27:17 GMT -5
I find that the Mario characters don't really need development because they're already fairly understandable. I mean how can you say Mario has no personality when he's practically brimming with it? Point taken. Like when he has to brutally steal a golden shell (and thus, am "A" grade) from an innocent penguin? The RPGs actually do a very good job of not injecting Mario with much personality. He's become more expressive (as has Link), but that isn't the same thing as personality. If Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga taught us anything, it's that expressive is funny. Old Donald Duck and Bugs Bunny were expressive. Old Sonic the Hedgehog games were packed with expressive. Once again, definition problem. People take the wrod "personality" differently. And as such, we all have different opinions. I'm with Man-Frog that Mario does have a personality - just not a complex one. But Mario's in a very enviable position... he's a corporate mascot that doesn't feel like a corporate mascot. And I think it's because he's not abused - he doesn't try and shove life-lessons down our throats. He doesn't claim to be a role model. He's not doing the things he does for any real reason, other than that's just who he is. And so long as Nintendo keeps him that way... then he will remain a unique mascot and a unique character. As long as the almighty Player One is controlling him, he won't suffer from this problem. Players lose control of him when he actually speaks. So far, this doesn't happen to him a lot. Once in Mario Party 3, other occasions in Game & Watch Gallery 2/3/4; and he is also known to speak in some Japanese instruction booklets. Mario's capable of speech, he just doesn't do it much. Besides, when Nintendo does pump personality into a character... you end up with Wario or Tingle. Grotesque, unwashed, almost monster-like, and always horribly unique. Nintendo has this character thing down to an art. Others would do well to learn from them. I do wonder, though, that in some games, like Metroid Fusion, playable characters may get personality - and it's a serious-themed one, too. Doesn't that work well, too? |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Apr 27, 2009 1:34:44 GMT -5
Besides, when Nintendo does pump personality into a character... you end up with Wario or Tingle. Grotesque, unwashed, almost monster-like, and always horribly unique. Nintendo has this character thing down to an art. Others would do well to learn from them. I do wonder, though, that in some games, like Metroid Fusion, playable characters may get personality - and it's a serious-themed one, too. Doesn't that work well, too? Like I said, I'm not against everyone in fictional entertainment having needs and desires and reasons for their actions... it just has to be relevant. The Metroid backstory is already uniquely coherent and surprisingly deep, so it makes sense to have a Samus that fits into that mould. However, I'd be just as mad if they turned her into some kind of blonde bimbo because "that's what the kids like these days". Mario, like Donald, Bugs and Tom & Jerry, are not complex. The reasons for everything they say or do is simply to entertain us for a short burst of time - rather than to remain attached to a backstory. Samus has a backstory, as does Link... but they both remain detached enough from it to simply be along for the ride... which is all we are doing as well, making them the perfect in-game avatars. |
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Post by Koopaul on Apr 27, 2009 8:43:37 GMT -5
Eh... I don't remember them trying to pump emotion into Donald or Bugs Bunny. Maybe Goofy from Goof Troop or something. But that's okay, because Goof Troop was awesome! That Tom & Jerry Movie was balls though, although they have portrayed in their past cartoons that they are fond of each other as violent playmates.
But you know I was referring to Disney fairy tales like Aladdin or the Little Mermaid. Also I don't really want Mario to change. At all. He's fine where he is. Just the Story in the Mario games to be like those of Aladdin or Little Mermaid fashion.
If there ever was emotion, it should be portrayed through other characters, which they do perfectly in the Paper Mario games.
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Post by nocturnal YL on Apr 27, 2009 9:01:58 GMT -5
If you are talking about Goof Troop as in the SNES game, then I don't think there's much to say about it. They have dialogues and all, but for most of the time you play it as a game, not a storybook.
If Mario is to be given non-backrgound stories, then:
- make it the SMB way. Peach is taken (again) and Mario sets off to rescue her from Bowser (again). Sliding in Sunshine gag would add to it from being a cliché.
- make it RPGish. From what we've see so far, the RPGs are pretty separated from the other games. Even the two lines of RPGs do not intersect. It's not exactly alternate universe, but keeping stuff this way would satisfy both story-players and non-story-players well.
- just imagine whatever you like. (Mario Bros) Mario owes Luigi money so he fights him back. (Super Smash Bros Team Battle) Luigi thinks Bowser is more reliable so he backfires at Mario. (Super Mario Galaxy) Luigi dances with himself for no reason given. Just whatever.
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