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Post by TV Eye on Jan 30, 2011 14:04:05 GMT -5
Not every character on Capcom's side are ridiculously popular (as in highly-praised). There are some others like the Chiki Chiki Boys, Cyber Blue (Battle Circuit), Ninja Hanamaru, Meta Ball (Metal Walker), Max (Gekitou! Power Modeler) and Lee Wong (Tiger Road) are some examples. Parrot, I was still talking about Marvel vs Capcom 3. I was pointing out that even though Capcom has an extensive catalog of obscure characters, they'd rather stick with the ones people know. |
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Post by Boo Destroyer on Jan 30, 2011 14:44:11 GMT -5
Ice Climbers were there to be presenting the retro NES characters back then. Pretty much anyone who was somehow included in Smash Bros became very known. You know, I made an article about this a couple years ago that pretty much nobody agreed with... This is mainly because of the end result usually being that people like only these characters, not the series they're from. (i.e. There's a big difference between F-Zero fans and Captain Falcon fans, Fire Emblem fans and Marth/Ike/Roy fans*, WarioWare/Land fans and Wario-himself fans**, so on) *I so plead guilty. **The former seems to be dying lately, I think. |
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Post by parrothead on Jan 30, 2011 17:04:59 GMT -5
Let me simplify my words. What's this conversation about? - Adding obscure characters (especially protagonists and mascots) into the next cross-over video game. Why include one or more obscure characters? - To have something that's both, good and not the same old thing we've seen very often. Even though several popular things are notable for doing or having something iconic and very original that made them memorable, they later become "meh", especially when you don't feel like seeing the popular characters while you hear annoying fanboys and probably fangirls. Do I want more obscure characters than popular ones in the roster? - NO! It's the other way around. Only one to few obscures are enough. Adding several popular characters is okay. Not every character on Capcom's side are ridiculously popular (as in highly-praised). There are some others like the Chiki Chiki Boys, Cyber Blue (Battle Circuit), Ninja Hanamaru, Meta Ball (Metal Walker), Max (Gekitou! Power Modeler) and Lee Wong (Tiger Road) are some examples. Parrot, I was still talking about Marvel vs Capcom 3. I was pointing out that even though Capcom has an extensive catalog of obscure characters, they'd rather stick with the ones people know. What about TvC? That game's roster, despite being filled with many characters not known by many outside of Japan, it didn't bother critics outside of Japan much. I heard it's been stated many times that the developers chose characters that they themselves wanted in the game. Characters they liked, characters from their childhoods, etc. Even though Capcom is known for listening to fans, not everything has to be about the fans, I'm sorry to say. If the developers aren't happy with the game in the first place, I don't think any of the fans would be. They spend hours of hardwork into everyone on that roster because they are characters they are passionate about. The amount of love and detail is evident in the final product. We have this great game because they really cared about it. Had they included characters that they didn't care for, for the sake of including a character, we would have been stuck with a game like Capcom Fighting Evolution. |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Jan 30, 2011 17:59:24 GMT -5
Of course. Popular franchises are the fuel that keeps the companies running. But just because a character is obscure doesn't mean you should hate them. A good portion of the characters in TvC are characters that many of us didn't know about until we heard about the game. I'm not saying you're not allowed to hate obscures, but hating someone because you don't know them isn't a good reason. Never said I hate obscurities. Think of Smash Bros. for a second. When the series started it had 12 characters. The starters consisted of Mario, DK, Link, Yoshi, and Pikachu, 5 characters with huge names, Kirby, who was fairly well-known and really, who the hell could resist him?, and Fox, who was relevant and, while not big, had a fairly large fanbase. The one oddball was Samus, who was still not so outdated as to be obscure. The only real obscurity in the entire game was the most difficult unlockable to get, Ness. You can't start with a pack of obscurities. We can guess parts of the roster no matter what. There would likely be an obscurity or two from both ends if this happens. But when a series like this starts, like it or not, obscurities must take a backseat until the series establishes. Unnecessary semantics are unnecessary. And in any case it was a word-for-word translation. |
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Post by TV Eye on Jan 30, 2011 17:59:44 GMT -5
What about TvC? That game's roster, despite being filled with many characters not known by many outside of Japan, it didn't bother critics outside of Japan much. True, but that game was never planned to be released internationally. Tatsunoko itself is considered obscure here in the West, while Marvel is a brand name, so it'd only be fitting that Capcom balance out the roster with popular Japanese characters. |
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Post by 8bitretroshit on Jan 30, 2011 18:51:27 GMT -5
I heard it's been stated many times that the developers chose characters that they themselves wanted in the game. Characters they liked, characters from their childhoods, etc. Even though Capcom is known for listening to fans, not everything has to be about the fans, I'm sorry to say. If the developers aren't happy with the game in the first place, I don't think any of the fans would be. They spend hours of hardwork into everyone on that roster because they are characters they are passionate about. The amount of love and detail is evident in the final product. We have this great game because they really cared about it. Had they included characters that they didn't care for, for the sake of including a character, we would have been stuck with a game like Capcom Fighting Evolution. I like how you copied this comment from the Capcom thread you linked to earlier and just slapped I heard in front of it (also CFE has Hauzer so it owns automatically) |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Jan 30, 2011 19:49:24 GMT -5
I'll be honest, I don't know what everybody is arguing about...
Look at it this way... all of the Capcom VS/X games have obscure characters on both sides of the fence. Same goes for Smash Bros.
If Capcom were going to make the game, of course they'd start with Mario, Link, Samus, Kirby, Pokemon... And I expect we'd see Mega Man, Ryu, Resident Evil, Darkstalkers, yadda yadda.
So why the arguing? They're gonna shove in some obscurities. They always do!
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Post by Shrikeswind on Jan 30, 2011 20:51:00 GMT -5
Y'know Fry, I really can't tell. From what I can tell, Parrot has a chest full of obscurities which someone or other thought he expected, then it just devolved. Personally, I'm of the clade that we'd get obscurities at any rate, but that we're too early in to even contemplate it. I mean hell, right now it's just an interesting thought mentioned by one developer at one company in an interview. Right now, as the idea is just an idea, we can only contemplate how deep the hand will reach into individuai series for the biggest franchises, and what series for the ones with less push. After that, it's like finding an unopened container of apple juice in your closet, fucking Christmas.
That being my angle.
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Post by parrothead on Jan 30, 2011 21:33:38 GMT -5
Think of Smash Bros. for a second. When the series started it had 12 characters. The starters consisted of Mario, DK, Link, Yoshi, and Pikachu, 5 characters with huge names, Kirby, who was fairly well-known and really, who the hell could resist him?, and Fox, who was relevant and, while not big, had a fairly large fanbase. The one oddball was Samus, who was still not so outdated as to be obscure. The only real obscurity in the entire game was the most difficult unlockable to get, Ness. You can't start with a pack of obscurities. We can guess parts of the roster no matter what. There would likely be an obscurity or two from both ends if this happens. But when a series like this starts, like it or not, obscurities must take a backseat until the series establishes. Did you hear what I just said? I'm not saying I want a lot of obscurities. Having at least one as an unlockable? That's fine. But I agree with you on the popular characters. Think of them saying "Welcome our fans. Be sure to also meet these obscurities." Obscurities can use popular ones as bait. What about TvC? That game's roster, despite being filled with many characters not known by many outside of Japan, it didn't bother critics outside of Japan much. True, but that game was never planned to be released internationally. And neither was SSB64. I like how you copied this comment from the Capcom thread you linked to earlier and just slapped I heard in front of it (also CFE has Hauzer so it owns automatically) I did that, just in case if any of you were too lazy to look in the thread. I would prefer Leo over Hauzer, because he is most likely the protagonist of Red Earth. IMO, secondaries aren't as interesting as protagonists, unless they later have their own series like DK, Yoshi and Wario did. |
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Post by Manspeed on Jan 30, 2011 21:49:28 GMT -5
...So.....why did you mention obscure characters at all in the first place?
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Post by TV Eye on Jan 30, 2011 22:54:33 GMT -5
... Aaaaaaand?I'm sorry parrot, but I have no idea where you're going with this. Are you trying to prove that a successful series can be fueled by obscurities? Then even if you are, the only characters in Smash 64 that would qualify as "obscure" would be Ness and Captain Falcon, but even then Ness was put in because he was popular in Japan, and Falcon was put in because (if I remember correctly) he was a favorite of Sakurai's. Meaning, every character in Smash 64 was popular in their native Japan, so they wouldn't qualify as obscure characters, especially given that it was never meant to be released internationally. |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Jan 30, 2011 23:39:05 GMT -5
Alright, the argument's miring its solution, let's get some damn rope in here. Did you hear what I just said? I'm not saying I want a lot of obscurities. Having at least one as an unlockable? That's fine. So you're posting a list of obscurities to what purpose? One sentence, and we can settle this all diplomatic-like. |
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Post by Boo Destroyer on Jan 30, 2011 23:46:31 GMT -5
Okay, so uh...
How about that Nintendo x Capcom? So it's been considered at first, but I do hope it comes about full force for sure.
Well, so long as it can hold my interest for long. I got Tatsunoko vs Capcom before when it came out, but haven't touched it in ages.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Jan 30, 2011 23:52:10 GMT -5
Hot damn, Boo, I hope this becomes a thing. Mario and Pikachu taking on Mega Man and Ryu? WOO! I sure hope they think to put in Ammy.
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Post by Fryguy64 on Jan 31, 2011 4:44:39 GMT -5
but even then Ness was put in because he was popular in Japan, and Falcon was put in because (if I remember correctly) he was a favorite of Sakurai's. The Mother series has never been particularly popular in Japan. It's hugely popular with the few that played it, much like in the US. Ness was included because he was a favourite of Sakurai's (see references in Kirby series). Captain Falcon was probably included because F-Zero X had just been released. Fox was included because Star Fox 64 had just been released. Samus out-obscured them both on the N64. It's simple. Obscure characters appear because somebody is a fan of them. In Japan, the Famicom was such a massive deal they could pack in as many obscure characters as existed. When you even get to Super Famicom, let alone later systems, their appearance is more dependent on either the popularity of the game, or how recent the game is. Sometimes this feeds backwards. You have to remember, we are a really bad place to talk about obscurity and its varying levels. Star Fox is pretty well known, but most people won't have played past Star Fox 64. The Legend of Zelda is very well known, but throw in a character from the Oracle games and you'll leave many scratching their heads. And just because we haven't played a game doesn't mean it isn't possible. Someone working on Nintendo X Capcom might LOVE the Oracle games - maybe they even worked on them, and squeeze the Subrosians in somehow. Maybe a staff member migrated from Alphadream and loves Tomato Adventure, or maybe Nintendo staffers will pipe up and shove in their personal favourites. Remember, what we - this forum - wants to see is largely irrelevant. We make very small noises compared to the vast fanbases for other games. We also dilute this further by making very small noises for lots of games. This is a general Nintendo fan forum attached to a general Nintendo fan site born from discovering the obscure and forgotten. We will therefore have a few fans of obscure and forgotten games, and a few fans of obscurity itself. I'm certainly one of the latter. I love mining the forgotten depths of videogames, whether Nintendo or not. I'd love to see obscure Capcom characters too, like Momotaro, Shin Kazama and Zack & Wiki. So can we stop arguing about whether someone's being too obscure, or not obscure enough and get back to pointlessly speculating about the game? |
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