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Post by TV Eye on Nov 23, 2007 16:47:14 GMT -5
Falco as a clone was more different (is that how you say it?) then Y. Link as a clone. Sure, he can be different, but that's not always the best argument. Dr. Mario can be different too, but it doesn't mean he should be playable. It's also Melee that makes the difference. There haven't been more games with Y. Link then Link. They were Link. The reason people give for why he is likely are off. Those are more reasons why he can be a playable character, but not why he's better then any other. Falco is a much more important character, and much more popular too. He is second only to Fox himself. He was added on the grounds that Starfox is popular. He could have his own moveset. Y. Link was added becuase he's great clone material. He's is no different then Link in any way (heck, he IS Link), and isn't any more popular then Falco. Young Link is not Link (what? keep listening). (Almost) Every Zelda game has a different Link. Metroid is always the same Samus so that argument doesn't apply. Falco is not, definitely not more popular than Young Link. Falco doesn't even compare to Y Link. Link is the embodiment of the Zelda franchise, which is extremely more popular than Star Fox. Fox is the main character of Star Fox, so saying Y Link isn't any more popular than Falco is, well, that's crazy. Your whole argument of Ylink as a clone was less different than Falco as a clone, also doen't apply, since we are not talking about that Link, but the Cel Shaded one. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2007 17:34:37 GMT -5
Tei, you are outdoing yourself with these posts! You summarise my opinions more or less accurately... however I still believe if we do get clone characters again, Ness's chances shoot straight up the list, as will Young Link's. But that's dependent on an unknown. Given what we know now, your list is spot on. Unown unknown factor, but I treated the entire post as factually as possible. Clones would not be unwelcome--I personally had no issue with them--but the truth is just that they're very unlikely, and that any previous "true" clone (not Luigi) would either be removed from the game or changed to be original. Especially as the clone characters were added in Melee last-minute, and now Sakurai's had over two years to develop Brawl. But if Clones were to come back, I'd group Ness and Falco with the "Have-A-Chancers" no problem; Young Link, IMO, would be the ultimate variable because he could so easily be turned into an original character. He's just not as in-demand as Ganondorf, who would be in the same boat.I think that sums it up pretty accurately. Well, Ness would be more of a half-clone than Luigi, since his Special Moves would be the only thing similar to Lucas, and even then it's possible to give the moves different names and effects even though they operate the same way. Standard: PK FlashThis would be the same as it was in Melee, though it's not exactly clear to us as to whether or not Lucas's PK Freeze controls the same way. If it does, than this could be a non freezing version of it that causes other "strange" effects, like falling asleep or putting a flower on the player's head. Side: PK ParalysisI've settled on this because it could be a electric based version of PK Fire. Ness would shoot out the same tiny lightning bolt, except it would engulf the player in the same kind of paralyzing electricity as Pikachu's attacks. Also, like in Melee, Ness would shoot it down at an angle in midair instead of across in order to further separate it from Lucas.
Up: PK TeleportThis would be almost the same as PK Thunder, except it wouldn't cause any damage except for the initial explosion, and Ness would briefly disappear for a moment for the cool factor. Partially inspired by Ness's entrance in SSB. Down: PSI ShieldSince Lucas's PK Magnet does not cover him completely, Ness would have a shield that does. To balance things out, it wouldn't restore health upon absorbing projectiles, hence PSI Shield. Not bad. The problem I have is everyone over emphasises Y. Link and Under emphasises Falco. Even you did it. What on earth make Y. Link more likely then Falco, or likely at all. He fits the bill of clone becuase there wasn't much to justify his entry. If there were never clones, he'd probably never have a chance. We would have seen Ganondorf and Falco eventually. Not only that, but Pit pretty much steals his style. He's a fast sword wielding character that has problems getting K.O.s. Falco and Ganondorf are at least popular amongst their franchise. I'm not sure Zelda fans are eagerly awaiting Y. Link to be shown. But the thing is I have never heard a sound argument on why he should be in.
As for Falco...like I keep saying. Fox and Krystal? They're in. I know it in my heart. Is Star Fox important enough to warrant a third character...? That, I'm not so sure. Falco could easily be made into an ordinance character like Snake thanks to the vast amount of weaponry introduced in SFAssault, even having a chargeable blaster rifle instead of the blaster pistol from Melee and using the Jetpack as a recovery move. But he's not the series' main character and Krystal has overwhelming popularity due to her fanservicey nature, and the fluke of her being the true owner of the staff Fox picks up in Adventures. Falco needs to apply to Sakurai in a way that would make him interesting and original. Can he do that? I sure as hell hope so.
Like I said to Fry, if clones are back, Falco will be back. I have no doubt about it. If clones are gone, and Sakurai needs to reinvent movesets for those clones that are returning, Falco needs to be worth that effort. I'm jaded by a lot of the things I like getting the shaft, so me anticipating Falco's potential non-playability is just me bracing myself for the worst. That's why I'm discounting him. |
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Post by Captain Walrus on Nov 23, 2007 18:35:49 GMT -5
Hey Cap'n Walrus, I noticed that you've adjusted the bottom part of your sig somewhat, going from left to right according to right using the groupings I did. Was this intentional? If so, that's pretty badass. I approve. ;D It was pretty much intentional. The only switch I made was I put Falco in front of Young Link because I cannot fathom another incarnation of Link getting in before Falco. Even though it is probably more likely that that will happen. (Almost) Every Zelda game has a different Link. Metroid is always the same Samus so that argument doesn't apply. You can't argue that every Zelda game has a different link and then argue that Young Link has been in more games than Link because each Link is different. I'm not sure about the Oracle games (never played them), but I can't think of a Link that has more than two games. It doesn't matter how old he is, he's the same character. Even if he's not the same person, he's the same character. To represent the series you'd need Pre-Teen Link, Early Teens Link, Late Teens Link, and Adult Link, and not to mention Young Zelda (turns into Tetra instead of Sheik!). Or Sakurai could make one Link, one Zelda, and Ganondorf and we'd have the whole triforce and that would suffice. |
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Post by Smashchu on Nov 23, 2007 18:45:56 GMT -5
. Comparing Zelda to Star Fox like that is similar to saying F-Zero should have four characters just because Pokémon does/might, only not quite as drastic. Star Fox is popular, but not "OMG ZELDA" popular. There's more demand for Zelda characters than Star Fox characters; add that to the fact that Young Link is a different person from Adult Link now--not like in OoT where they were the same person at different ages--and that YL has really developed his own identity in his games, and that he has a completely new set of equipment to use, makes him a very, very plausible choice for playability. I hope this is sound enough for you, but I'm willing to go into more detail if you want it.Well, I wasn't compairing the franchise dirrectly. But, Starfox fans want Falco (or at least the fans that like the franchise becuase they like it, and not becuase Fox and Krystal look like a Fox were it human). Zelda fans want Ganondorf. But how much do Zelda fans want Y. Link? From what I've seen, they want the characters (like Vatti and Minda) rather then Y. Link. What is Young Link but Link at a different age. The games never made a distinction between the two, but with Melee, the fans have. Of course, I'd like you to go in depth. I always asked my self the same question. Is Starfox able to have 3 characters? My answer was always the same. Importance, Popularity and Fightability are all things that get juggled around. Popularity doesn't garrentee you anything else we would have had Mr. Saturn as a PC in Melee. It helps a lot though. Importaince helps to justify what franchise needs fighters (which is why I say Ridley has such a good chance). And I guess you know where Fightability stands. As long as the moveset makes some sence and works, it's OK. But Starfox isn't as big as Zelda or Pokemon, so can it have more then two fighters. Yes, because of popularity and fan want. Fans want Krystal, but they also want Falco. There are a lot of people hoping for Falco to come back, especially in America. He was one of the few clones who was generally liked and seen to come back. At the very least he is importance to the franchise (although popularity and importance go hand in hand). Even on the Command Box it says "....nine different endings, and popular characters like Falco Lambardi and Krystal". Both Characters are fan characters, ones that are liked by the community and know by Nintendo fans. Even in terms of franchise importances, with it selling almost 10million copies with 5 games total. Not to bad actually. It's also a wonder that Krystal is wanted by the Japanese as the Starfox games (especially the ones with Krystal in them) don't do well in Japan (or amazingly). But, they still want Starfox characters. I'm sure someone even asked for Falco to return. I think in general, Falco will come back and has a good shot at it. He is a well known characters and one that is popular to boot. We hear more about Krystal becuase she's not in Smash Brothers at all. Good point. But, there is nothing to say Falco can't stay the same (or close). Even without clones, his moveset and entry in Brawl would have made scene, and been justified. I feel he has a good shot at coming back, even with Krystal. He is a fan character and I think that's what justifies him to be in Brawl. But I'm in the same boat as you. I fear he won't get in. I think Sakurai will make the right choice and add him. It would just feel like something is missing if we have Fox and Krystal with no Falco. Young Link is not Link (what? keep listening). (Almost) Every Zelda game has a different Link. Metroid is always the same Samus so that argument doesn't apply. Falco is not, definitely not more popular than Young Link. Falco doesn't even compare to Y Link. Link is the embodiment of the Zelda franchise, which is extremely more popular than Star Fox. Fox is the main character of Star Fox, so saying Y Link isn't any more popular than Falco is, well, that's crazy. Your whole argument of Ylink as a clone was less different than Falco as a clone, also doen't apply, since we are not talking about that Link, but the Cel Shaded one. So that means we should have the Link from OoT too becuase their different. Really, just because all the Links aren't the same doesn't mean that adding another Link is justified. But your saying Y. Link is more popular then Falco because Link is more popular then Falco. It's true, and Link is in Brawl. End of story. Just becuase we CAN have another Link, doesn't mean we should. And, surprise, Falco is more popular then Y. Link. Y. Link got a 8 in the Melee poll, Falco a 7. In the Nsiders poll, Falco got a 4, Y. Link got a 2. Even then, Falco is more popular. Just becuase they are different Link doesn't justify anything. It's just like every support thread on Smashboards. It's a reason to give a reason, but it's not a good one. Link is never the same person twice. BUT in every game it's understood your playing Link. That, some how, he is similar to the other Links. Heck, the WW Link is the OoT Link. The game says so it's self. There are many Links, but we have Link in Brawl. In his Melee trophy, it says there are many Links and that their destiny is intertwined with the Ganons and Zeldas. He is THE Hero. |
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thores
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Post by thores on Nov 23, 2007 19:11:28 GMT -5
Well, I wasn't compairing the franchise dirrectly. But, Starfox fans want Falco (or at least the fans that like the franchise becuase they like it, and not becuase Fox and Krystal look like a Fox were it human). Zelda fans want Ganondorf. But how much do Zelda fans want Y. Link? From what I've seen, they want the characters (like Vatti and Minda) rather then Y. Link. What is Young Link but Link at a different age. The games never made a distinction between the two, but with Melee, the fans have. I'm a Zelda fan. Wind Waker Link is currently one of my most wanted characters. And the games make VERY OBVIOUS distinctions between Links. I've already made most of the other points for him in the "Who do you want" thread, and Tei's already made several in this thread. It seems to me that the main reason you think he's unlikely to return is simply because you don't want him in, much like how Tei was saying a month or two ago that Bowser Jr. was unlikely because he's "unimportant to the series" and "couldn't be anything besides a clone", which are bull answers. He IS important, and a unique moveset for him would be a piece of cake. He's just a terrible character that should have never replaced the Koopalings. But unfortunately that alone does not bunk his chances, and in fact him getting a playable slot is VERY likely. The same applies to Young Link/Wind Waker Link, though I think he's actually slightly less likely than B.J. |
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Post by TV Eye on Nov 23, 2007 20:03:51 GMT -5
So that means we should have the Link from OoT too becuase their different. Really, just because all the Links aren't the same doesn't mean that adding another Link is justified. Okay, I see what you are getting at, but you fail to see what I am getting at. Let me elaborate. Y Link in Melee was a younger version of the Adult Link in Melee. They were the same exact character. A boring concept. But, after Wind Waker was released, a Link was shown that was able to use items (Link's primary form of attack) that the Young Link, or even Adult Link, had no access to. Items such as Deku Leaf, Grappling Hook, and Skull Hammer. The Link in Brawl is, without a doubt, the Link from Twilight Princess. He has the same moves from SSB64, and Melee, so why not a change? Why not add the Cel-Shaded Link who has a completely different moveset? Why hate on a character? In a perfect world, everyone would accept every character. Yes, yes that's all fine and dandy, but you keep referring to the Melee Y Link, not the WW Link. Well, technically he is a reincarnation... There is only one Ganondorf. It's been stated in the games themselves. SPOILERS!! In Ocarina of Time, Gaonondorf was sealed by the sages.
In Twilight Princess, he escaped and killed a sage, but was sealed away again.
In WW, Ganondorf turned to stone and sealed under the ocean with the King of Hyrule.END OF SPOILERS |
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thores
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Post by thores on Nov 23, 2007 20:14:33 GMT -5
SPOILERS!! In Ocarina of Time, Gaonondorf was sealed by the sages.
In Twilight Princess, he escaped and killed a sage, but was sealed away again.
In WW, Ganondorf turned to stone and sealed under the ocean with the King of Hyrule.END OF SPOILERS Actually: In Twilight Princess, Ganondorf was KILLED by Link's hands. However, Twilight Princess takes place in the alternate timeline where Link went back to being a child (the Majora's Mask timeline), and not the main OoT timeline that Wind Waker takes place in, so it's still all the same Ganon/dorf. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2007 20:22:20 GMT -5
Thores: you're absolutely right. I let my not-wanting of Bowser Jr. cloud my judgement on the character himself at the time. Now I'm pretty willing to accept that if there's a Mario character to follow Luigi, Bowser Jr. would be the one; he does have potential to be original and he is important to the series. I was just too much of a tool to understand at the time.
Smashchu: I think you're blowing things out of proportion. Those of us in favor of Young Link coming back Wind Wakerfied are not saying every era of Link needs to be represented; already, most versions of the character have a home in Adult Link.
Think of it more like this: Link, the TP-styled one we know is in the game, represents traditional Zelda. Boomerangs, Bows and Arrows, Bombs, Claw Shots, etc. Young Link could represent Nintendo's attempts to breath life into the character with new gear and a different art direction; this is something every child incarnation of Link has been striving for ever since the Wind Waker. Minish Cap alone introduced at least four revolutionary new gadgets that were not only awesome but fun to use; Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass have added their own little pieces of flair as well, not to mention the addition of the Four Sword and four different Links; that would make a great Final Smash, I think. While TP Link tried a little bit of innovation and mostly succeeded--Ball and Chain, Double Clawshot--both great weapons, Young Link is doing something new every step of the way while still taking tradition into account.
The reason Young Link's chances are so great where, say, Dr. Mario's are not, is because of all that new equipment. Sakurai's main concern, I figure, would be to eliminate clones that can't be made original; Dr. Mario will go because he doesn't have anything to draw from that can differentiate him from Mario aside from throwing the Megavitamins. And without Mario's background in action, you can't just assign him random moves and call him an original character. Young Link, though--he's packing heat and a lot of it.
And don't give me that "WW Link is TP Link" thing, either. The two may share similar traits--courageous, altruistic, etc. etc.--but they've gone down very different paths. TP Link--and OoT Link really--are both orphans who care for their friends but really aren't too sensitive; Young Link was raised by his grandma and had his sister to keep him company in WW, so you can see that he's a much more caring person, especially in Phantom Hourglass. Not to mention that TP Link is about as funny as a tree stump...WW Link can at least give you a few laughs with some character gags. Especially with Linebeck. Can you imagine a TP Linebeck? He'd suck. It's part of the WW-type games' visual style.
If we hadn't seen a new generation of Zelda games since OoT, I'd be behind you 100%. But we're in a different time now where Zelda has gone in two very different and two very well-loved directions.
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Post by TV Eye on Nov 23, 2007 20:29:04 GMT -5
I couldn't have said it better myself TEi (your on a roll today, aren't you  ) Anyways, yeah. I completely forgot about Minish Cap, which shows even more possibilities of new attacks, such as the Mole Mitts, Gust Jar, Cane of Pacci, Pegasus Boots, and Roc's Cape. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2007 21:11:49 GMT -5
I couldn't have said it better myself TEi (your on a roll today, aren't you ) Anyways, yeah. I completely forgot about Minish Cap, which shows even more possibilities of new attacks, such as the Mole Mitts, Gust Jar, Cane of Pacci, Pegasus Boots, and Roc's Cape. |
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Post by Johans Nidorino on Nov 23, 2007 21:37:31 GMT -5
On the issue of Young Link:
I have nothing against Link of the Great Sea and I don't think it's unlikely, but if I were the director of the game I'd consider he needs to come with a pack of items / characters / stages / other things to make the inclusion feel complete, if I must include him. And he should be the one from TWW and PH. No FS / FSA / TMC stuff unless it's just slight cameos (like Kirby obtaining an Ezlo cap when swallowing him). That way he will be as coherent as the Link of Ordona that has already been revealed.
I wonder if the number of people that are expecting this would be the same if Young Link hadn't appeared in Melee. Even the term, Young Link, was born in Melee (his distinction name was Child Link in OoT), and that ease in naming him was because he was the same Link as the other one, just 7 years younger and as a witness of a new adventure in Majora's Mask.
I think he's not infinitely necessary. But I hope they do it right if they include him. This means a playable Tetra, a stage at the Great Sea, and other cameos from TWW and PH. Not just throwing him in for the sake of having a Young Link.
Off-off-topic:
When I see the pictures of Saki as an Assist Trophy, I feel the same way I felt when I saw an unplayable Samurai Ghorghor on the site.
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Post by Smashchu on Nov 23, 2007 22:23:50 GMT -5
So that means we should have the Link from OoT too becuase their different. Really, just because all the Links aren't the same doesn't mean that adding another Link is justified. Okay, I see what you are getting at, but you fail to see what I am getting at. Let me elaborate. But this kind of just goes back to the moveset thing. But, it sheds some light on things. I assum you guys want him becuase he could have a good moveset. I can concure, and I think he would, but I feel it would be redundant to add another Link and take a spot from another character. I'll be honest, if he is in Brawl, I'll eat my words. He'll probably be a cool character, but I beleive that it is unnecessary. Then why does everyone say Y. Link. They clump all the characters together in one big pot. But this is also why there is one Link. If I talk about Link, you know generally who I'm talking about. The character is one entity that changes throughout the games, but also shows that a characters design will change over time. By that, it solitifes that while in the story there is one Link, general Link will always be Link, no mater what he looks like. I said Ganon. It may be true though. Smashchu: I think you're blowing things out of proportion. Those of us in favor of Young Link coming back Wind Wakerfied are not saying every era of Link needs to be represented; already, most versions of the character have a home in Adult Link.
Think of it more like this: Link, the TP-styled one we know is in the game, represents traditional Zelda. Boomerangs, Bows and Arrows, Bombs, Claw Shots, etc. Young Link could represent Nintendo's attempts to breath life into the character with new gear and a different art direction; this is something every child incarnation of Link has been striving for ever since the Wind Waker. Minish Cap alone introduced at least four revolutionary new gadgets that were not only awesome but fun to use; Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass have added their own little pieces of flair as well, not to mention the addition of the Four Sword and four different Links; that would make a great Final Smash, I think. While TP Link tried a little bit of innovation and mostly succeeded--Ball and Chain, Double Clawshot--both great weapons, Young Link is doing something new every step of the way while still taking tradition into account.
The reason Young Link's chances are so great where, say, Dr. Mario's are not, is because of all that new equipment. Sakurai's main concern, I figure, would be to eliminate clones that can't be made original; Dr. Mario will go because he doesn't have anything to draw from that can differentiate him from Mario aside from throwing the Megavitamins. And without Mario's background in action, you can't just assign him random moves and call him an original character. Young Link, though--he's packing heat and a lot of it.
And don't give me that "WW Link is TP Link" thing, either. The two may share similar traits--courageous, altruistic, etc. etc.--but they've gone down very different paths. TP Link--and OoT Link really--are both orphans who care for their friends but really aren't too sensitive; Young Link was raised by his grandma and had his sister to keep him company in WW, so you can see that he's a much more caring person, especially in Phantom Hourglass. Not to mention that TP Link is about as funny as a tree stump...WW Link can at least give you a few laughs with some character gags. Especially with Linebeck. Can you imagine a TP Linebeck? He'd suck. It's part of the WW-type games' visual style.
If we hadn't seen a new generation of Zelda games since OoT, I'd be behind you 100%. But we're in a different time now where Zelda has gone in two very different and two very well-loved directions. But the problem is it all goes back to the same argument: The character could have different and unique moves. Sure, that's nice, and would make a great character, but it doesn't explain why he should get the spot over another character. It still hasn't been explained. Why does he deserve the character spot and what is his importaince. That's why I have been saying "He's Link" over and over again. It's driving the point that he doesn't play a role that is any different then another character who is in the game. Fightability is important, but it comes down to whether they are in or not. Sakurai has gone though characters and not added them on the grounds they they won't make good fighters. But, now a days, any smuck can make a moveset, and it has been done. So, just becuase the character can fight, doesn't mean it should. But my main problem isn't that people want him, but they actually think he's in, or better yet, almost garrenteed, having more chance then character who actually are going to get in. I've seen it all before. I personally think Sakurai wont seen it in the same light that you guys do and not add him. Of course, if he's in, I wont complain. I'll probably be ecstatic. He will probably be fun. |
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thores
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Post by thores on Nov 23, 2007 22:30:38 GMT -5
Ganon and Ganondorf are one and the same. He's called Ganon when in his pig form, and Ganondorf when in his humanoid form.
And some people refer to WW Link as Young Link because that's precisely what he is: a contemporary young Link. If he's in Brawl, Sakurai isn't going to call him "Wind Waker Link", he's going to call him Young Link, much like how nobody calls the current Link in Brawl "Twilight Princess Link". Thus Wind Waker Link, despite his major revamp, will probably be treated as a Veteran if he does get a playable role.
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Post by TV Eye on Nov 23, 2007 23:08:27 GMT -5
But the problem is it all goes back to the same argument: The character could have different and unique moves. Sure, that's nice, and would make a great character, but it doesn't explain why he should get the spot over another character. It still hasn't been explained. Why does he deserve the character spot and what is his importaince. That's why I have been saying "He's Link" over and over again. It's driving the point that he doesn't play a role that is any different then another character who is in the game. The whole point I am trying to make, is that he shouldn't take the place of a character, but have both said characters appear. I don't think anyone is taking anyones place. It's a game, and Sakurai isn't going to say, "We need exactly [X amount] of characters, so let's get rid of [X] in favor of [X]." That doesn't really make sense if you think about it. The fans want a variety of characters, and what the fans want, the fans should get. We are the consumer, we give them the dirty money that they rightfully deserve for listening to us. |
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Post by TrustTheFungus on Nov 24, 2007 1:20:17 GMT -5
I'm with Smashchu on this. Two Links when Tingle and Vaati aren't in?
Uh...FSA?
Except he's called Ganon even when in human form. I don't remember him being called Ganondorf in pig form ever, but I could be mistaken.
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