Let's put this to rest: Analyzing the Brawl Poll!

[Deleted]

Don't forget that Sakurai would undoubtfully choose the characters that have a good level of importance to Nintendo, which is how Mr.G&W got in Melee. Not many knew him, but he was important on the Nintendo timeline. Same with Wario, who had some pretty popular games of his own in the Mario series, as well as his own series, WarioWare!

On the whole popularity scale, it's like Sakurai choosing Pepsi over Coke because it was more popular, even though he would've rather had Coke more because of the taste. Just think of the 'taste' as Sakurai's own opinion. Am I right?

[Smashchu]

fliptroopa said:

Sonic was on the poll; it was just never transcribed nor was it marked more than once by Sakurai. The list we have is still spotty in many ways because very few folks were actually reading the Japanese. But I think there is still some merit in the fact that from 64 to Melee we saw a lot of the fan desired content appearing. The Melee poll is evidence of that.

Actually, that explains a lot. There is also another poll on Nsider (now Nsider2) that shares similarities to the Smash Boards one and some differences (SB has Geno at 4 and Nsider has him at 5).

And this does not deny Sakurai having other influences in the least. Clearly Snake was a personal inclusion and the choice to go with Pokemon Trainer may have been as well. He's still the designer, so he still gets creative license. But if we have something that can give us a wee bit of hope, I say stick with it until something better comes along.

I also felt this was true, or.....at least after PT. There will be some characters we won't be able to suspect. The Poll will tell us most of the characters, and is a good indicator. I still fell that there will be one more character that blows everyone away becuase no one though of it.

On the topic of Sonic, the Genesis was the far more popular console outside of Japan--but the PC Engine kicked its ass in the homeland by far. The TurboGrafx-16 (PC Engine's Western counterpart) didn't pick up as well in the States or Europe (though still fondly remembered) and Sonic became more a Western property in the end. Not to say it wasn't still Japan-developed, but only starting with the Dreamcast were Sonic games being marketed for Japanese rather than Westerners. Within all this lies the argument that Sonic was not as heavily requested a character as people think he was. Yes, WE all wanted him. The English-speakers we all know really wanted him. But folks in Japan may (and this is conjecture--I really don't know the truth) see Bonk or Mega Man or a Belmont or some other non-Sonic character as far more likely. Frankly, Sonic was a service to the Western audience if anything. Not to say he isn't popular in Japan, but there are definitely far more good choices from that angle than there would be from our side of the Pacific.

I can say at least this: this proves that Sakurai is indeed listening to the demands of the West.

I'm fairly positive that Sonic WAS popular in Japan. I don't know if there was the inter-console rivalry that we manufactured in the West. This is another problem with all this speculation - people seem to just make up a load of crap as they go along.

From what I have heard the Japanese don't understand why Sonic got in and say he's a has been. This comes from a Japanese message board.

Also, the sales were always better in the west then Japan.

[Game Guru]

smashchu2 said:

From what I have heard the Japanese don't understand why Sonic got in and say he's a has been. This comes from a Japanese message board.

Umm, Sonic IS a has been if his recent games are an indicator. He got in because his games for the Genesis and Dreamcast STILL kick ass today, much more than Crash Bandicoot, who was high for a third-party on the Melee poll.

[Fryguy64]

That's it. We all know Sonic got in, not because of his recent game titles, but because of the early 90's Nintendo-Sega rivalry back in the glorious 16-bit days.

And I'm not arguing that Sonic wasn't more popular in the West than Japan (in fact, in Europe the SNES didn't outsell the Mega Drive until Donkey Kong Country!) But that doesn't mean Sonic was an unpopular character in his native homeland.

And Smashchu... basing that opinion on a single Japanese forum post (unlinked/quoted no less?) I've taught you better than that

[parrothead]

Fliptroopa, just because DeMille only starred in one game, doesn't mean his chance is low. There are some characters in SSBB that appeared in only one game excluding SSB series appearances and cameo appearances. Tomato Adventure was released 5 years ago, which is slightly old. SmashChu guessed that Tomato Adventure sold around 100K copies, but it could have either sold less than or greater than that. Stafy was added as an Assist Trophy, mainly because he fights a lot better underwater than on land, and there are more characters that fight on land than underwater in the SSB series. Another reason is that I heard that Stafy's arms and legs are so short, it would be difficult for Sakurai to create A-button moves for Stafy. I forgot about this, because I thought A-button moves can be made up so easily by Sakurai and the SSBB staff. DeMille is probably easy enough for Sakurai to create, because DeMille can use some of his Gimmicks as some of his A-button moves. I haven't heard anything from Sakurai about DeMille, but if Sakurai really starts to like DeMille, then Sakurai might add him in, if everyone else at Nintendo don't mind.

[Manspeed]

Here's a catalyst of a question: Who is more popular in Japan, Sonic or Bomberman?

[kirbychu]

robert said:

Here's a catalyst of a question: Who is more popular in Japan, Sonic or Bomberman?

Bomberman. Sonic pretty much just has a cult following in Japan, which is why just lately they've stopped bothering with releasing many of his games over there.

[Manspeed]

Which Sonic games don't get released in Japan?

Better yet, how popular is Bomberman? A good half of his games didn't even get released outside Japan, and even then, you don't hear good things about Hudson that often. I'd wager his sales were always pretty low. Hudson essentially dug it's own grave using the methods we know them for.

[Smashchu]

parrothead1983 said:

Fliptroopa, just because DeMille only starred in one game, doesn't mean his chance is low. There are some characters in SSBB that appeared in only one game excluding SSB series appearances and cameo appearances. Tomato Adventure was released 5 years ago, which is slightly old. SmashChu guessed that Tomato Adventure sold around 100K copies, but it could have either sold less than or greater than that. Stafy was added as an Assist Trophy, mainly because he fights a lot better underwater than on land, and there are more characters that fight on land than underwater in the SSB series. Another reason is that I heard that Stafy's arms and legs are so short, it would be difficult for Sakurai to create A-button moves for Stafy. I forgot about this, because I thought A-button moves can be made up so easily by Sakurai and the SSBB staff. DeMille is probably easy enough for Sakurai to create, because DeMille can use some of his Gimmicks as some of his A-button moves. I haven't heard anything from Sakurai about DeMille, but if Sakurai really starts to like DeMille, then Sakurai might add him in, if everyone else at Nintendo don't mind.

While, yes, the fact he has been in only one game is irrelivent, he probably won't be playable.

I only guess becuase I'm not sure what Vgchartz numbers are. But selling more is probably not likely. If it sold more, it would have probably been on the charts.

Starfy missed the boat becuase he wasn't a very original character in a dieing franchise that wasn't that strong to begin with. DeMille's chances were worse then Starfy so he probably won't make it. Not to mention Sakurai is staying away from Japanese only characters. Also, the fact he fights better in water then land is irrelevant.

DeMille is interesting, but is probably not going to get into Brawl.

[kirbychu]

From Sonic '06 onwards, Japan have gotten every Sonic game after the rest of the world, even though most of them are made in Japan. They didn't get either of the Sonic Rivals games, they haven't had any announcement regarding Sonic RPG, and for months it didn't look like they were going to get Sonic Rush Adventure, either.

But, looking at sales, it looks like the Wii Bomberman game actually sold around 2,000 copies less than Sonic and the Secret Rings in Japan. Secret Rings was released a few months earlier, but still...

EDIT: The latest Bomberman for DS sold almost as much at launch as Sonic Rush Adventure has in total, apparently. That seems to indicate that they like Bomberman more over there.

[TV Eye]

Wow, Japan's taste is waaaay different than ours. I also found out that they didn't like the Prime series, which were really popular here.

What makes each country have different tastes? Is it the exposure? The environment? Also, while I'm on the subject, how is it everyone in Japan draws pictures exactly the same?

There, questions to ponder.

[Manspeed]

Actually, most animes and mangas have distinct styles that set them apart from one another. Whoever started the first weeaboo community obviously couldn't see that. Most weeaboos these days can't.

EDIT: About the Bomberman subject, I have reason to believe that his newer games are getting better thanks to Hudson now being a subsidiary of Konami. Bomberman Lands 1-3 on the PS1 and PS2/GCN along with Bomberman Kart and Bomberman Battles went by almost completely under our noses, and only now are we getting these types of games.

[Flip]

Bomberman was on the PC Engine with Bonk, and that was just the far more popular console in Japan. I think the Japanese like things cute and simple and with crazy gameplay and plots. I mean, look at US vs. Japanese RPGs. You get things like World of Warcraft and Mass Effect up against Final Fantasy and the Tales games. Simply put, Westerners are all about action and multiplayer while the Japanese are keener on solo adventures with sweeping cinematics. I mean, that's a bit of a generalization, but I recall reading an Ocarina of Time interview with Miyamoto where he basically said just that--it's difficult to make a franchise that appeals to both the West and Japan because Westerns love games with mind-blowing graphics and fast action while Japanese gamers prefer to spend time working through the game slowly with humor abounding.

Sonic was always a Western character. He was extreme, the graphics were always meant to impress, and the gameplay was as simple as you could get. Compare that to Mario, and you can totally see the difference in target audience. Mario is all about exploration and care, and the cast is ridiculously goofy and set against a fairly bright and simple backdrop. No duh Sonic was included as more of a fanservice to Western gamers, if only because we were the bigger consumers of his games than Japan was.

That being said, two things:
1. Snake is fairly popular in either region. Metal Gear Solid was designed to be very "Western," but at the same time appeal to RPG-whoring Japanese.
2. Bonk is totally the last slot. It makes perfect sense, and I'll keep saying it just like I always have till the day Brawl comes out

EDIT: GREAT case in point--Zelda. What are the big Zelda games of the past few years? Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, Phantom Hourglass, Four Swords, Minish Cap. Of those, how many star cutesy-pootsy SD Link and how many star ultra-Cloud macho Link? Twilight Princess was designed by Aunoma with the Western audience in mind, while Phantom Hourglass was for the more portable-friendly Japanese market. They like their Link all cute and cuddly, and we like ours big and badass. It's just the way things are.

[mopinks]

I don't think that really works for Zelda, though. Wind Waker actually did much better in the US than in Japan, in typical Zelda fashion. Japanese consumers really only bought Phantom Hourglass in droves because it was on the DS, not because Link is so darned adorable in it.

I'm calling it now: NINTENDO DS CONFIRMED TO BECOME THE NEXT JAPANESE PRIME MINISTER

[parrothead]

smashchu2 said:

parrothead1983 said:

Fliptroopa, just because DeMille only starred in one game, doesn't mean his chance is low. There are some characters in SSBB that appeared in only one game excluding SSB series appearances and cameo appearances. Tomato Adventure was released 5 years ago, which is slightly old. SmashChu guessed that Tomato Adventure sold around 100K copies, but it could have either sold less than or greater than that. Stafy was added as an Assist Trophy, mainly because he fights a lot better underwater than on land, and there are more characters that fight on land than underwater in the SSB series. Another reason is that I heard that Stafy's arms and legs are so short, it would be difficult for Sakurai to create A-button moves for Stafy. I forgot about this, because I thought A-button moves can be made up so easily by Sakurai and the SSBB staff. DeMille is probably easy enough for Sakurai to create, because DeMille can use some of his Gimmicks as some of his A-button moves. I haven't heard anything from Sakurai about DeMille, but if Sakurai really starts to like DeMille, then Sakurai might add him in, if everyone else at Nintendo don't mind.

While, yes, the fact he has been in only one game is irrelivent, he probably won't be playable.

I only guess becuase I'm not sure what Vgchartz numbers are. But selling more is probably not likely. If it sold more, it would have probably been on the charts.

Starfy missed the boat becuase he wasn't a very original character in a dieing franchise that wasn't that strong to begin with. DeMille's chances were worse then Starfy so he probably won't make it. Not to mention Sakurai is staying away from Japanese only characters. Also, the fact he fights better in water then land is irrelevant.

DeMille is interesting, but is probably not going to get into Brawl.

Let's compare DeMille to Takamaru.

In sales, Murasame Castle probably didn't sell well enough in both, the FDS and the GBA. One of the reasons why it didn't sell well enough and stayed in Japan was that its FDS release was initially scheduled to coincide with the release of the FDS itself, but setbacks in development caused it to be released much later, contributing to its relative lack of popularity. Another reason is that it was released the same year Zelda 1, Metroid 1 and Castlevania 1 were released in. They caught more attention and sold better, which is why Murasame Castle failed to achieve the same sort of commercial success. It didn't even have a television commercial during its release. However, it was shown in the infomercial for the FDS along with Zelda 1. The number of FDS copies sold is unknown, but the number of GBA port copies sold were around 70K. Tomato Adventure was meant to come to the West, but didn't sell well enough. I know it didn't sell well enough, but I don't know how many copies. However, this web site said that during February 2002, 13,658 copies of it were sold. Also, this other website said that on March 16th, 2002, 40,459 copies were sold. I still cannot find the answer to how many sold in total, but it probably didn't go over 100K during the same year. And I saw that you created a thread at the VGChartz forum that asks how many copies did Tomato Adventure sale in total.

In popularity, Murasame Castle might be more popular than Tomato Adventure, because of Takamaru being mentioned more than DeMille in the SSBB poll, but I can find more Japanese web sites filled with Tomato Adventure fan artworks than the ones related to Mystery of Murasame Castle. Could this mean that Tomato Adventure has slightly more fans than Mystery of Murasame Castle does?

In importance, Tomato Adventure is the predecessor of the more successful Mario & Luigi titles (like For the Frog the Bell Tolls is the predecessor of the more successful Zelda: Link's Awakening), while Murasame Castle is the sister of The Legend of Zelda (like the StarTropics series is the sister of the Zelda series). I don't know exactly how important Tomato Adventure and Murasame Castle are to Nintendo, but if Sakurai doesn't need another sword user, even if it uses a katana, then Takamaru would be in jeopardy. And if Sakurai doesn't want too many childish, happy characters, then DeMille is done for.